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Old
04-11-2014, 11:13 PM
  #626
Flyrs21
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In the 11-12 season......

Jagr had 19 goals
Hartnell had 37 goals
Giroux had 28 goals 65 assists

In the 13-14 season

Voracek has 21 goals
Hartnell has 20 goals
Giroux has 27 goals 55 assists

I know Giroux didn't assist on every goal Hartnell scored but you can say Hartnell overachieving contributed to Giroux's 11-12 season so he probably is contributing the same in both seasons. If Hartnell and Voracek could finish there chances better they both could easily have five more goals a piece. 10 points gives him 92 points on the season, with Hartnells extra 17 goals.....99 points. His biggest problem is defense not scoring.

You can probably argue he contributed better this season because of the lackluster start and because he wasn't playing with Jagr, since he only scores when he plays with Jagr.

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04-12-2014, 12:51 AM
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
... seriously?

He has absolutely delivered... with the exception of the first few games he's scored at about the same pace as we had hoped and the reason he wasn't producing in the beginning was because he was recovering from an injury and the rest of the team was doing nothing to help. He even has a chance to get a career high in goals despite not scoring one until the 15th game...

I have no idea what you're talking about and it doesn't seem like you do either. How could anyone possibly complain about the season he has had...
I'm not complaining about the season, he's had a fantastic season and I couldn't be happier with where the Flyers are because of him.

I'm just comparing him to other players and saying it's not as easy as ppg = top 5 player in the league. There's at least 3 that are clearly ahead, and among the others Giroux hasn't put up enough points since the 11-12 season to say he's clearly a top 5 player.

There's no adjusted point totals for playing injured and it wasn't like he was playing well and just hampered by his hand, he was pressing and so was the entire team. No one could score. You can't blame all that on Giroux's injury that he took the prescribed time to recover from. He scored in preseason, didn't he? It wasn't all the injury.

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04-12-2014, 02:10 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
I'm just talking about this season and kind of last season. Those stats include his 11-12 season which a lot of people say was a one time thing he won't reproduce while Flyers fans insist he will be able to repeat.

In that respect, I'm saying he's had a disappointing season as it's significantly less productive than that season and validates the idea that he's "only" a PPG that had one great season. I was hoping for another 90+ point season to silence the haters as I'm sure many of us were and he hasn't delivered.

Maybe G is only a PPG player, which, with the decreasing scoring, is still elite. But it's not as good as we've seen him play and it will be disappointing if he doesn't reach that level again.

Being PPG doesn't automatically make him a top 5 player like someone insinuated. In fact, he's lucky if he stays in the top 5 in points being only a PPG because guys like Stamkos, Malkin, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and others missed time. It only adds to the fact that most of his points are assists and some of the top scorers can put up 40+ goals.

I think G is a top 5 forward, but he hasn't produced like one since 11-12. He's 11th in PPG over the last two seasons with every single player ahead of him (except Zetterberg) and many behind him having a much better GPG.
If you're disappointed in Giroux, I can only imagine how you feel about Hartnell and Voracek. Or the 2nd line. Or Vinny.

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04-12-2014, 07:00 AM
  #629
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
I'm not complaining about the season, he's had a fantastic season and I couldn't be happier with where the Flyers are because of him.

I'm just comparing him to other players and saying it's not as easy as ppg = top 5 player in the league. There's at least 3 that are clearly ahead, and among the others Giroux hasn't put up enough points since the 11-12 season to say he's clearly a top 5 player.

There's no adjusted point totals for playing injured and it wasn't like he was playing well and just hampered by his hand, he was pressing and so was the entire team. No one could score. You can't blame all that on Giroux's injury that he took the prescribed time to recover from. He scored in preseason, didn't he? It wasn't all the injury.
While I agree with some of this, no he did not score in the preseason. I believe he did not play any games. He certainly was not in game shape and his hand was still bothering him. In the 1st game against the Leafs, he was miced up and in a scrum with Lupul I believe, he said to watch his hand and that he hurt his hand. It was obviously bothering him still.

I do think that Sid, Malkin and Stamkos have all proven to put up point totals that Giroux has not. After that, Giroux has proven that he is in the next group of players. Just think, he will be one of only 4 guys to be PPG players in ALL of the last 3 seasons. If he finishes top 5 in scoring, he joins Sid and Stamkos as the only just to finish top 5 two times in three years. And assuming he finishes in the top 4 of the Hart voting, he will going Sid as the only guy to be top 4 in 2 of the last 3 years. That is pretty good company.

He is also the only scorer in the top 20, that does not have a top 40 scoring teammate. So EVERY top 20 scorer has better help than Giroux.

He also is the only guy in the top 14 who plays on a team that does not have a player in the top 30 in goals.

Giroux competes with all the top guys yet has by far the least support.


Last edited by Tripod: 04-12-2014 at 07:19 AM.
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04-12-2014, 03:26 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
While I agree with some of this, no he did not score in the preseason. I believe he did not play any games. He certainly was not in game shape and his hand was still bothering him. In the 1st game against the Leafs, he was miced up and in a scrum with Lupul I believe, he said to watch his hand and that he hurt his hand. It was obviously bothering him still.

I do think that Sid, Malkin and Stamkos have all proven to put up point totals that Giroux has not. After that, Giroux has proven that he is in the next group of players. Just think, he will be one of only 4 guys to be PPG players in ALL of the last 3 seasons. If he finishes top 5 in scoring, he joins Sid and Stamkos as the only just to finish top 5 two times in three years. And assuming he finishes in the top 4 of the Hart voting, he will going Sid as the only guy to be top 4 in 2 of the last 3 years. That is pretty good company.

He is also the only scorer in the top 20, that does not have a top 40 scoring teammate. So EVERY top 20 scorer has better help than Giroux.

He also is the only guy in the top 14 who plays on a team that does not have a player in the top 30 in goals.

Giroux competes with all the top guys yet has by far the least support.
He actually did score in preseason, against Washington. http://flyers.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/...?id=2013010097

I agree with everything you said, but in the end it's all excuses, however valid. A lot of guys can say the same kind of things like Kessel with linemates, Ovi and Stamkos with poor teams (not this year for Tampa obviously), etc etc. Coming back early from injury isn't uncommon.

Of course I'd like to see him get someone who can score on his wing, but I wish he'd shoot more too because he's got such a great shot even if he does tend to shoot wide. He could easily put up more than 30. And as long as he's playing with Jake, he'll have someone who can set him up.

But my point was just that there's a lot of guys putting up as many points as him since his great season, and a lot of them are putting up a lot more goals. I think G can be a top 5 player and he brings a lot more than just point production, but his production since his great season hasn't really been enough to separate him from those ~5-7 guys after Sid/Malkin/Stamkos. He's actually been behind a lot of them like Tavares, Getzlaf, Kessel, Ovi and Hall as far as PPG and all of them score more goals.


Last edited by blinds: 04-12-2014 at 03:35 PM.
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04-12-2014, 03:48 PM
  #631
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Since his great season he is 5th in NHL points and 4th in assists.

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04-12-2014, 03:59 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Since his great season he is 5th in NHL points and 4th in assists.
But he's only had one good season though!!!

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04-12-2014, 04:05 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Since his great season he is 5th in NHL points and 4th in assists.
And 11th in PPG and it's not like the guys ahead of him have a small sample size, most are over 90 GP, Stamkos with the least at 84 GP. The best are clearly at the top, Giroux is just in the mix with the other players around PPG.

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04-12-2014, 04:06 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinds View Post
He actually did score in preseason, against Washington. http://flyers.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/...?id=2013010097

I agree with everything you said, but in the end it's all excuses, however valid. A lot of guys can say the same kind of things like Kessel with linemates, Ovi and Stamkos with poor teams (not this year for Tampa obviously), etc etc. Coming back early from injury isn't uncommon.

Of course I'd like to see him get someone who can score on his wing, but I wish he'd shoot more too because he's got such a great shot even if he does tend to shoot wide. He could easily put up more than 30. And as long as he's playing with Jake, he'll have someone who can set him up.

But my point was just that there's a lot of guys putting up as many points as him since his great season, and a lot of them are putting up a lot more goals. I think G can be a top 5 player and he brings a lot more than just point production, but his production since his great season hasn't really been enough to separate him from those ~5-7 guys after Sid/Malkin/Stamkos. He's actually been behind a lot of them like Tavares, Getzlaf, Kessel, Ovi and Hall as far as PPG and all of them score more goals.
What team/ player do you cheer for?

He is a far better player than Tavares, Kessel, Ovi and Hall. He makes his WHOLE team better. He isn't a primary shooter, unlike 3 of the 4 ^^

He doesn't score goals yet it in the TOP 5 in pts in the NHL for the past 4-5 years.... but ya, he isn't as good b/c he doesn't score.... wtf... I don't get this logic

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04-12-2014, 04:09 PM
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
What team/ player do you cheer for?

He is a far better player than Tavares, Kessel, Ovi and Hall. He makes his WHOLE team better. He isn't a primary shooter, unlike 3 of the 4 ^^

He doesn't score goals yet it in the TOP 5 in pts in the NHL for the past 4-5 years.... but ya, he isn't as good b/c he doesn't score.... wtf... I don't get this logic
This season he also has more PPG than Kessel, identical to Ovechkin and a 2 point game off Hall.

And he is far better defensively than all 4.

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04-12-2014, 05:19 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
What team/ player do you cheer for?

He is a far better player than Tavares, Kessel, Ovi and Hall. He makes his WHOLE team better. He isn't a primary shooter, unlike 3 of the 4 ^^

He doesn't score goals yet it in the TOP 5 in pts in the NHL for the past 4-5 years.... but ya, he isn't as good b/c he doesn't score.... wtf... I don't get this logic
Don't be dramatic, we don't have to be oblivious homers all the time. This is a thread for discussing Giroux, I'm comparing him to other players and playing a little Devil's advocate.

He hasn't been as good because other players put up similar point totals with more goals and, like it or not, goals are worth more than assists. In the context of the Flyers' season, Giroux has been absolutely fantastic. Objectively looking at production, he's comparable to a lot of other guys that put up more goals than he does. That's why Giroux outpaced Stamkos in points in 11-12 and Stamkos got the Hart nomination, despite the Flyers making the playoffs and TB not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
This season he also has more PPG than Kessel, identical to Ovechkin and a 2 point game off Hall.

And he is far better defensively than all 4.
I agree with you guys, I'm just looking at it from an objective perspective. He's clearly better than Hall and Kessel, but he's not clearly better than players like Tavares, Zetterberg, Ovechkin and Getzlaf. Then there's guys like Toews and Kopitar who can argue that they are better defensively and still very productive offensively. Then you have younger guys like Tavares, Hall, Seguin, Benn, Duchene, etc who are on the rise and even starting to outpace him in some respects.

I'm saying its debatable where Giroux stands in that tier of players under the top tier of Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos beause his best quality is his offense and he hasn't produced enough to outstrip them since 11-12.

In 11-12, he put himself in the conversation of being in that top tier of players, but since then he hasn't proven he can sustain that level of play.

Again guys, he's my favorite player and I think he is better than all those others I listed (except maybe Tavares for the future), but I'm just saying he hasn't done enough to set himself apart since 11-12. You don't have to question who I root for.

Edit: What a game today though, eh? Keeping that puck in for Voracek's first was great.


Last edited by blinds: 04-12-2014 at 06:04 PM.
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Old
04-12-2014, 07:36 PM
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinds View Post
Don't be dramatic, we don't have to be oblivious homers all the time. This is a thread for discussing Giroux, I'm comparing him to other players and playing a little Devil's advocate.

He hasn't been as good because other players put up similar point totals with more goals and, like it or not, goals are worth more than assists. In the context of the Flyers' season, Giroux has been absolutely fantastic. Objectively looking at production, he's comparable to a lot of other guys that put up more goals than he does. That's why Giroux outpaced Stamkos in points in 11-12 and Stamkos got the Hart nomination, despite the Flyers making the playoffs and TB not.



I agree with you guys, I'm just looking at it from an objective perspective. He's clearly better than Hall and Kessel, but he's not clearly better than players like Tavares, Zetterberg, Ovechkin and Getzlaf. Then there's guys like Toews and Kopitar who can argue that they are better defensively and still very productive offensively. Then you have younger guys like Tavares, Hall, Seguin, Benn, Duchene, etc who are on the rise and even starting to outpace him in some respects.

I'm saying its debatable where Giroux stands in that tier of players under the top tier of Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos beause his best quality is his offense and he hasn't produced enough to outstrip them since 11-12.

In 11-12, he put himself in the conversation of being in that top tier of players, but since then he hasn't proven he can sustain that level of play.

Again guys, he's my favorite player and I think he is better than all those others I listed (except maybe Tavares for the future), but I'm just saying he hasn't done enough to set himself apart since 11-12. You don't have to question who I root for.

Edit: What a game today though, eh? Keeping that puck in for Voracek's first was great.
No offense, but I think you're trying too hard to be objective and ending up unrealistic...

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04-12-2014, 08:20 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
He's clearly better than Hall and Kessel, but he's not clearly better than players like Tavares, Zetterberg, Ovechkin and Getzlaf.
He's a better player than Ovechkin. Ovie is a better pure goal scorer but Giroux is a better overall player and makes his teammates better players.

Ovie is one of those superstars that looks great on paper but you don't want him on your team.

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04-12-2014, 09:27 PM
  #639
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Tavares is so overrated on this board

If you look at their stats, it really doesn't get any more equal than Giroux and Tavares. People just say Tavares is better because he's a former #1 pick and scores more goals

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04-12-2014, 09:36 PM
  #640
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No offense, but I think you're trying too hard to be objective and ending up unrealistic...
I mean, go see what everyone besides Flyers fans think. They put him in that 4-7 spot behind Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos. I think he's better than everyone but those 3 (and honestly I'd rather have him than anyone but Crosby), but looking at the facts I don't think you can safely place him higher than guys like Getzlaf. And he's got a lot of younger guys like Tavares nipping at his heels (although the HF Tavares bandwagon is unbearable).

We see the little things Giroux does game in and game out and we know the value he has, but some of the other comparable guys out there do just as much work, we just don't see it as often.

I just think a lot of us give Giroux the benefit of the doubt too readily for some things and are too quick to use them as excuses. Linemates, PK time, recovering from injuries. It's all excuses for him not producing as much as we know he can. I think they're valid excuses, some more than others, but excuses nonetheless for production that isn't there.

I see it as the same as Pens fans saying Crosby would be so much better without Dupuis/other random plug. That's great, it might be true, but the situation is what it is and so are his point totals. There's no asterisks next to your season for poor linemates or playing injured.

Flyers fans want to insist Giroux is a 90+ point player (and I'm one of them), but looking at his production you can't safely say that. I can't wait for Giroux to prove all that wrong and put up a 100 point season soon but he'll probably need better conditions to do that (mainly better linemates, although Jake would be fine if he could find more consistency).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyrs21 View Post
He's a better player than Ovechkin. Ovie is a better pure goal scorer but Giroux is a better overall player and makes his teammates better players.

Ovie is one of those superstars that looks great on paper but you don't want him on your team.
I agree, Giroux is just so much more complete in every respect but goal scoring, although I think the biggest difference is their leadership. Giroux is one of the best captains in the NHL IMO while Ovi is among the worst. Good leadership goes a long way and the Flyers are stacked with good leaders.


Last edited by blinds: 04-12-2014 at 09:42 PM.
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04-12-2014, 09:47 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Tavares is so overrated on this board

If you look at their stats, it really doesn't get any more equal than Giroux and Tavares. People just say Tavares is better because he's a former #1 pick and scores more goals
Ehh, I agree he's overrated but you can see where it comes from. Guy has a comparable work ethic to Giroux and he'll do anything to win. He just keeps improving, I saw some thing where he got better at goal scoring by practicing his shot for an entire summer. He has the hockey IQ, motivation and a good enough physical skill set to be among the best. He can be a leader too, he says all the right things and seems to put team first the same way G does.

He'd be one of my favorite players if I didn't have to listen to everyone proclaiming him a top 5 player before he actually does anything to deserve it. I think he'll get there as soon as next season if he stays healthy, though.

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04-12-2014, 10:39 PM
  #642
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@ Blinds,

Both this season and last season he started the year off injured. Despite what the cliche` says, injuries are an excuse. After the first month of last season (41/48 games) he scored at a 93 point pace. After the first month of this season (70/81 games) he scored at a 93 point pace.

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04-12-2014, 11:52 PM
  #643
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@ Blinds,

Both this season and last season he started the year off injured. Despite what the cliche` says, injuries are an excuse. After the first month of last season (41/48 games) he scored at a 93 point pace. After the first month of this season (70/81 games) he scored at a 93 point pace.
I don't know, it just seems like a convenient way to brush off poor play to me. It's like when someones playing bad and people immediately suspect an injury on no basis other than that poor play.

It's that "Oh, he's playing bad, must be an injury" mindset. Maybe he's just playing poorly, maybe Giroux is just a slow starter, maybe the problems that caused the rest of the team to suck early on caused Giroux to suck as well.

We don't know how much the injury contributed to his poor play, it's just wishful thinking on our part to put the blame on something out of his control instead of just poor play. It's not like his hand magically healed when he scored his first goal 3 months after the injury. It was a confidence and mental issue as well.

Giroux didn't use his injury as an excuse and I don't think we should either. It's really just speculation that the injury was the cause and that's why I dont like using it as an excuse and it's why the argument of "well, look at his season after his poor start" gets so much flak.

He played the games, we can't just discount them because they don't fit our arguments or narrative.

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04-13-2014, 12:10 AM
  #644
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He had a very nice season.

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04-13-2014, 12:16 AM
  #645
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This discussion's gotten a little off track though, sorry guys. I was just trying to say we may make a few too many excuses for Giroux's (relative) lack of production and that maybe he's not as clear-cut a top 5 player in the hockey world as we'd like to think.

There's a lot of other guys in that discussion and a lot of them can spin different excuses in their favor as well. In the end, I think Giroux can be the best player in the game on any given day and if he can get his production back up to where it was in 11-12 he can set himself apart from the Tavares's and Getzlaf's of the league and prove he is a top 4-5 player.

I just don't think he has yet which is what I was originally trying to argue.

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04-13-2014, 01:21 AM
  #646
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I don't know, it just seems like a convenient way to brush off poor play to me. It's like when someones playing bad and people immediately suspect an injury on no basis other than that poor play.

It's that "Oh, he's playing bad, must be an injury" mindset. Maybe he's just playing poorly, maybe Giroux is just a slow starter, maybe the problems that caused the rest of the team to suck early on caused Giroux to suck as well.

We don't know how much the injury contributed to his poor play, it's just wishful thinking on our part to put the blame on something out of his control instead of just poor play. It's not like his hand magically healed when he scored his first goal 3 months after the injury. It was a confidence and mental issue as well.

Giroux didn't use his injury as an excuse and I don't think we should either. It's really just speculation that the injury was the cause and that's why I dont like using it as an excuse and it's why the argument of "well, look at his season after his poor start" gets so much flak.

He played the games, we can't just discount them because they don't fit our arguments or narrative.
Here's the thing though, it's not narrative it's context and deeper analysis of the raw data.

In 2011-2012 he paced for 99 points. That's 77 games.

Last year he paced for 93 points over the course of 41 games.

This year he paced for 93 points over the course of 70 games.

That is 188 out of 206 games (over 91%) where he was playing at a 90+ point pace. To me, what I'm doing is analysis of the statistics at hand. When talking about statistics you almost always look to increase the sample size because it should give you a better idea of what's going on, but it's not always that simple.

For instance, I had an argument with a Leafs fan about Giroux vs Kessel, where I pointed out that the only time Kessel scored more points than Giroux was from Nov 12 - Nov 13. Pulling those stats out to him was cherry picking, but I argued it was context. And it was context because Giroux again pulled ahead because he's a better player.

Sometimes the sample is skewed, and in order to get past that you have to split it into two. You then see that the overwhelming evidence is that something was definitely different about Giroux at the start of both seasons. He was coming off of surgeries and injuries each year. It is not exactly a leap to say that this was the most likely cause for his poor play.

Over the past 200+ games we have two samples, one of 18 games where he was a 45 point player and one of 188 games where he was a 90+ point player. When you look at it like that, it seems pretty clear that sample that the sample which is over 10 times larger is more telling of the truth.

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04-14-2014, 12:04 AM
  #647
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Top 5 is official:
1. Crosby 104PTS 80GP
2. Getzlaf 87PTS 77GP
3. Giroux 86PTS 82GP
4. Seguin 84PTS 79GP
5. Perry 82PTS 81GP

Crosby's winning the Hart but it will be interesting to see who finishes second between Getzlaf & Giroux. Getzlaf has the better PPG average & plays on the number 1 team in the West but also plays with Perry who finished top 5 in scoring as well. Giroux on the other hand probably has the more feel good story along with the whole Flyers team that the writers may like, he also closed the gap in points on Getzlaf & doesn't have a player like Perry playing alongside him.

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04-14-2014, 10:13 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
This discussion's gotten a little off track though, sorry guys. I was just trying to say we may make a few too many excuses for Giroux's (relative) lack of production and that maybe he's not as clear-cut a top 5 player in the hockey world as we'd like to think.
How many Centers would you take over Giroux? Or Wingers for that Matter? For me Giroux is a top 5 Center. For me Getzlaf, Malkin, Crosby and Tavares are the players most capable of out scoring Giroux over a full season. But I wouldnt considering trading Giroux for any of them, they all have weaknesses in their game except for Crosby. Stamkos and Ovechkin can easily out Goal Giroux. But no teams wants Ovechkin anymore, and Stamkos would never be traded anyway so its moot.

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04-14-2014, 10:45 PM
  #649
LegionOfDoom91
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Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
How many Centers would you take over Giroux? Or Wingers for that Matter? For me Giroux is a top 5 Center. For me Getzlaf, Malkin, Crosby and Tavares are the players most capable of out scoring Giroux over a full season. But I wouldnt considering trading Giroux for any of them, they all have weaknesses in their game except for Crosby. Stamkos and Ovechkin can easily out Goal Giroux. But no teams wants Ovechkin anymore, and Stamkos would never be traded anyway so its moot.
Stamkos has outscored Giroux 4 out of the last 5 seasons & he was hurt this year in the only season Giroux outscored him. He's more a goal scorer yes but his goal to assist ratio is more balanced than Giroux's.

I would actually take Tavares out of your list since he's actually never outscored Giroux up to this date & replace him with Stamkos who as shown above has done it four times already since they both became full time players.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 04-14-2014 at 10:50 PM.
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04-14-2014, 10:48 PM
  #650
Tripod
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Top 5 is official:
1. Crosby 104PTS 80GP
2. Getzlaf 87PTS 77GP
3. Giroux 86PTS 82GP
4. Seguin 84PTS 79GP
5. Perry 82PTS 81GP

Crosby's winning the Hart but it will be interesting to see who finishes second between Getzlaf & Giroux. Getzlaf has the better PPG average & plays on the number 1 team in the West but also plays with Perry who finished top 5 in scoring as well. Giroux on the other hand probably has the more feel good story along with the whole Flyers team that the writers may like, he also closed the gap in points on Getzlaf & doesn't have a player like Perry playing alongside him.
If they look deeper at the numbers, they see that since Dec 10th, Giroux has beaten Sid in points. That's 2/3rds of the season where Giroux was the best. I think that and the point you made, should push him to #2. I think Sid still wins because of his consistancy.

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