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Emelin extended for 4 years (4.1 Million per)

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Old
11-01-2013, 09:40 AM
  #676
Devourers
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Ok so agent says you can make a deal at $4.1m or his client goes to free agency.
What's your call as GM?
I really doubt they arrived at 4.1m by the agent saying "4.1m, take it or he walks".

4.1m sounds like a number they came to from back and forth negotiating to which Emelin's agent accepted it. Highly doubt it was a take it or leave it scenario.

And come on, since when does LeBrun's opinion on something suddenly make it a good deal? I'm not saying it's a bad deal, I think we overpaid by 500-600k which to me is no biggie, it isn't like it's going to stop us from acquiring Crosby should he become available but in the same sense as Prust, it's an overpayment by most, but due to what both players bring to the team, it won't be an overpayment in the end.

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11-01-2013, 09:43 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
No issue with term or $$... But what's up with the timing?

Guy is coming back from reconstructive knee surgery, hasn't played a game yet, and we had 8 more months to get a deal done.

Like DD. & cube signings, MB is showing very poor judgment as far as the timing on getting contracts done.

Makes no sense & strikes me as very "rookie" type mistakes.

Why is it that with Subban, he worlds his leverage like a sledgehammer, but with other, lesser, players he lobs of softballs that they smack out of the park.

Fingers crossed that emelin's recovery is fantastic & he is able to continue improving / stay healthy once he gets back.

If he doesn't, major for MB
Exactly how I feel. Why now?

And again, Subban's got to be looking at the deals that we've done and wondering why the **** he got the shaft on his last contract. Just really, really weird on that front.

As for Emelin. Really like the guy. He's physical and he's a decent number four guy. 4.1 is a little steep but I could live with that if he plays the way he did. But that knee is scary and if he's not the same we've got ANOTHER bad contract to worry about.

Just don't see why we couldn't have waited on this or at the very least made it three years instead of four.
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Originally Posted by Devourers View Post
I really doubt they arrived at 4.1m by the agent saying "4.1m, take it or he walks".

4.1m sounds like a number they came to from back and forth negotiating to which Emelin's agent accepted it. Highly doubt it was a take it or leave it scenario.
Makes no sense that they'd take this position while the guy is hurt. That would be the Costanza school of negotiating.

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11-01-2013, 09:44 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I tell him about the salary structure we are trying to establish ( right, the so called salary structure), and say we have no issues giving him a good compensation but I need to see how he plays first.
I never heard of a player saying sign me a month into the season or I'm gone.
" fair enough, let's regroup in May or June keeping in mind our numbers might be different then and my client may be ready to test free agency"

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11-01-2013, 09:44 AM
  #679
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Well he sure didn't give us a discount and I'll leave it at that. Bergevin must be counting on some sort of progression here either on Emelin's side or that the cap will continue to increase in case he stagnates. He does bring an element which we sorely lack, and that is hitting, so I don't mind paying a bit of a premium, but excuse me if I'm not sold on him defensively in our own zone he has strides to make there.

Either way, I am not liking the way Bergevin hands out his contracts, and he has yet to make a major trade, should we be scared here?

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11-01-2013, 09:45 AM
  #680
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Ugh

First off, almost every analyst unanimously praised this signing, calling it fair market value. Yet our habs message board experts have a problem with it.

Lets say you DONT sign him, do you have any replacements for Emelin?

Also, are we all forgetting that the temptation of the KHL is also a factor? You dont think they are offering him big money??

Habs bought up 4 years of free agency. Thats the way it works.

If you want to nit pick, he is maybe 400-500K over paid. can get you half a 4th liner.

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11-01-2013, 09:46 AM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
Ugh

First off, almost every analyst unanimously praised this signing, calling it fair market value. Yet our habs message board experts have a problem with it.

Lets say you DONT sign him, do you have any replacements for Emelin?

Also, are we all forgetting that the temptation of the KHL is also a factor? You dont think they are offering him big money??

Habs bought up 4 years of free agency. Thats the way it works.

If you want to nit pick, he is maybe 400-500K over paid. can get you half a 4th liner.
Why now? Why not wait to see how he plays first? What's the rush?

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11-01-2013, 09:47 AM
  #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
Ugh

First off, almost every analyst unanimously praised this signing, calling it fair market value. Yet our habs message board experts have a problem with it.

Lets say you DONT sign him, do you have any replacements for Emelin?

Also, are we all forgetting that the temptation of the KHL is also a factor? You dont think they are offering him big money??

Habs bought up 4 years of free agency. Thats the way it works.

If you want to nit pick, he is maybe 400-500K over paid. can get you half a 4th liner.
So true, when have experts ever been wrong on anything, practically never. Again, I'm not saying it's a bad signing but it's pretty funny that people are using that as an argument against those who don't like the deal. It's pretty cheap, that isn't an argument. These "experts" might be right, but it isn't like they haven't been wrong before time and time again. They can't see into the future at least as far as I know.

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11-01-2013, 09:48 AM
  #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
Ugh

First off, almost every analyst unanimously praised this signing, calling it fair market value. Yet our habs message board experts have a problem with it.

Lets say you DONT sign him, do you have any replacements for Emelin?

Also, are we all forgetting that the temptation of the KHL is also a factor? You dont think they are offering him big money??

Habs bought up 4 years of free agency. Thats the way it works.

If you want to nit pick, he is maybe 400-500K over paid. can get you half a 4th liner.
Analysts are always right!!!!

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11-01-2013, 09:50 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Analysts are always right!!!!
More right than Hfboarders with no management or contract negotiation skills.

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Old
11-01-2013, 09:51 AM
  #685
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Considering how valuable a hard hitting, 2 way, 27 yr old defenseman is, I'm glad we locked him up. However I will admit the timing is a little off.

I could easily see many teams desperate for defense (EDM, CAR for example) offering 5x4 years without blinking twice.

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11-01-2013, 09:53 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Analysts are always right!!!!
No, the emotional and biased homers are.

And i never said they were right, i said, they are all calling it fair market value. And when there are huge UFA or signing mistakes, they will call that team out.

No one is saying its not a bit of a risk. Any long term signing is. But the arguing over a slight overpayment for a top 4 d man is just funny.

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11-01-2013, 09:56 AM
  #687
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
No, the emotional and biased homers are.

And i never said they were right, i said, they are all calling it fair market value. And when there are huge UFA or signing mistakes, they will call that team out.

No one is saying its not a bit of a risk. Any long term signing is. But the arguing over a slight overpayment for a top 4 d man is just funny.
Analysts always find a way to rationalize deals...even the bad ones. It's always positive.

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11-01-2013, 10:02 AM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
Ugh

First off, almost every analyst unanimously praised this signing, calling it fair market value. Yet our habs message board experts have a problem with it.

Lets say you DONT sign him, do you have any replacements for Emelin?

Also, are we all forgetting that the temptation of the KHL is also a factor? You dont think they are offering him big money??

Habs bought up 4 years of free agency. Thats the way it works.

If you want to nit pick, he is maybe 400-500K over paid. can get you half a 4th liner.
Yep!! Anybody connected in the hockey world knows this is a good signing at fair money. It's not like Bergevin woke up one morning and told himself " yaaaa, think I'm gonna sign Emelin today". He's done his homework with Dudley and co, I'm sure they've talked to the docs and rehab dudes, they've done their homework, believe me, he'll be fine...

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11-01-2013, 10:04 AM
  #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
No, the emotional and biased homers are.

And i never said they were right, i said, they are all calling it fair market value. And when there are huge UFA or signing mistakes, they will call that team out.

No one is saying its not a bit of a risk. Any long term signing is. But the arguing over a slight overpayment for a top 4 d man is just funny.
They're analysts not "experts". You guys make them sound as if they're all former GM's. They're TV people who discuss and analyze sports, acting as if they're infallible is laughable. General Managers make mistakes all the time, but suddenly a television personality must be right just because 4 guys on a panel agree? Just because the people here disagreeing aren't TSN analysts doesn't mean they have the IQ of a walnut and can't analyze the fact that Emelin has played 100~ games, has had an injury, hasn't come back yet, just got extended for what isn't a discount, and could have easily been signed after we saw him actually play. And for the record Emelin's defensive play and positioning has been anywhere from fail to at best average. But suddenly he's going to develop a beast defensive game at 28?

He very well might, but until he proves he can be a #4 shutdown D and not just a #5-6 D with a physical edge, I'm not just going to assume 4.1m over 4 years is a good signing. I'm sorry that you disagree but using an analysts opinion to try and say you're right is beyond laugh worthy.

I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that. They aren't gods who can see into the future and know better than everyone, they're just people who are on TV.

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11-01-2013, 10:04 AM
  #690
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Many talks about his defense but we must not forget that Emelin was on a pace of 26 ESP last season.
How many d-men scored 26 ESP since 2005?
There are barely 15 d-men who scored 26 ES points per season.

He did score same number of points 5 on 5 as PK!

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11-01-2013, 10:08 AM
  #691
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
So basically, Bergy had absolutely no choice but to sign Emelin to another inflated contract.
Some say that it costs Montreal 20-25% more than most other markets, on account of high local income tax.

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11-01-2013, 10:11 AM
  #692
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Some say that it costs Montreal 20-25% more than most other markets, on account of high local income tax.
Has anyone looked into this?

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11-01-2013, 10:13 AM
  #693
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Originally Posted by Devourers View Post
They're analysts not "experts". You guys make them sound as if they're all former GM's. They're TV people who discuss and analyze sports, acting as if they're infallible is laughable. General Managers make mistakes all the time, but suddenly a television personality must be right just because 4 guys on a panel agree? Just because the people here disagreeing aren't TSN analysts doesn't mean they have the IQ of a walnut and can't analyze the fact that Emelin has played 100~ games, has had an injury, hasn't come back yet, just got extended for what isn't a discount, and could have easily been signed after we saw him actually play. And for the record Emelin's defensive play and positioning has been anywhere from fail to at best average. But suddenly he's going to develop a beast defensive game at 28?

He very well might, but until he proves he can be a #4 shutdown D and not just a #5-6 D with a physical edge, I'm not just going to assume 4.1m over 4 years is a good signing. I'm sorry that you disagree but using an analysts opinion to try and say you're right is beyond laugh worthy.

I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that. They aren't gods who can see into the future and know better than everyone, they're just people who are on TV.
Solid post. It's always easier to overpay when it's not your money.

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11-01-2013, 10:14 AM
  #694
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Analysts always find a way to rationalize deals...even the bad ones. It's always positive.
not always.
Go look at what TSN/RDS etc guys said when Ville Leino was signed, Jeff finger etc, extreme cases, but its not like they said "ohh that is fair". They ripped the deal to shreds.

Point being, personally, i have more stock in my own personal opinion and those of paid analysts than attention starved internet critics.

When Emelin is back to 100%, and the roster sets itself, you will be able to fairly judge the deal.

But calling it an overpayment or steal is premature. Its fair at this point.

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11-01-2013, 10:19 AM
  #695
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Bergy doesn't seem to negotiate from past experience. He seems to make an offer and that's basically it. I can guarantee you there were no serious negotiations with this deal.It's a rich deal, period. I'm at people rationalizing it. Hopefully I don't see you crying about the deal in a couple years.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Were you sitting in on these negotiations? You would have to be able to do that to have privy to this type of information.

So basically, what it comes down to is that you are full of crap, making things up so you can have a "punchline" in an internet argument.

The deal was fair, not a bargain, not a rip off. It was fair, and I am happy with fair. Go read the main board and most of the intelligent posters will agree that this deal is fair.

Bunch of drama queens on this board. Its embarrassing to be a Habs fan sometimes.

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11-01-2013, 10:19 AM
  #696
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
" fair enough, let's regroup in May or June keeping in mind our numbers might be different then and my client may be ready to test free agency"
''Sure, or you might be crawling back to open negotiations because your client is struggling. I do not like dishonest negotiations, I have the power to sit your client out for the whole season, or I'll trade him and he might struggle moving forward. I would advise you to come in with a more honest and fair mindset next time we speak. In any event, thank you for showing me your whole hand.''

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11-01-2013, 10:22 AM
  #697
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Originally Posted by Devourers View Post
They're analysts not "experts". You guys make them sound as if they're all former GM's. They're TV people who discuss and analyze sports, acting as if they're infallible is laughable. General Managers make mistakes all the time, but suddenly a television personality must be right just because 4 guys on a panel agree? Just because the people here disagreeing aren't TSN analysts doesn't mean they have the IQ of a walnut and can't analyze the fact that Emelin has played 100~ games, has had an injury, hasn't come back yet, just got extended for what isn't a discount, and could have easily been signed after we saw him actually play. And for the record Emelin's defensive play and positioning has been anywhere from fail to at best average. But suddenly he's going to develop a beast defensive game at 28?

He very well might, but until he proves he can be a #4 shutdown D and not just a #5-6 D with a physical edge, I'm not just going to assume 4.1m over 4 years is a good signing. I'm sorry that you disagree but using an analysts opinion to try and say you're right is beyond laugh worthy.

I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that. They aren't gods who can see into the future and know better than everyone, they're just people who are on TV.

But whats makes a fans opinion more or as equal to that of an analysts who gets paid to watch hockey, has connections to every one in the game and can faily "gauge" what a players worth is in the market place?
Everyone makes mistakes. The kessel deal was universally laughed at in Toronto's end and now...hmmm not so sure. So yes, trades/signings can not be fairly judged 24 hours later.

As for Emelin, i dont disagree that he has holes in his game, but he is in his 2nd year as an NHL pro, but we all have seen the potential he has. And after Subban, Gorges, Markov, our D core is thin coming into next year. Cant count on 2 rookies to hold down the fort.

But of course, some one you would be thrilled to sign a 34 year old Brooks Orpik to 5mil + per year because thats what he will cost as a UFA.

Its not a perfect science, but MB has clearly identified his core, and wants to show loyalty to them. If that means over paying by a bit, im ok with it.

Problem is, after that DD extension, fans are waiting to jump on him after every move.

If we aint criticizin, we aint livin

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11-01-2013, 10:23 AM
  #698
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Lafleurs Guy, I agree with ya.

There has to be more to this story for MB to have expedited the signing . If not, MB is a goof ball.

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11-01-2013, 10:24 AM
  #699
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
More right than Hfboarders with no management or contract negotiation skills.
Pretty easy to be right when you say things like ''might, might not, could, could not''. Dreger is particularly good at doing that.

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11-01-2013, 10:26 AM
  #700
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Some say that it costs Montreal 20-25% more than most other markets, on account of high local income tax.
Considering Mtl doesn't have 20-25% more taxes than most other markets I find it hard to believe.

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