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[B]Youth movement? Not likely with THIS draft history[/B]

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09-28-2003, 07:30 AM
  #1
Wetcoaster
 
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Youth movement? Not likely with THIS draft history

This is an update of a previous post at another board when I was having my usual fun slagging Pat Quinn and his abysmal drafting record. Given Quinn's draft record, fans should NOT be concerned when he trades away high draft picks because he cannot get it right when drafting high anyway. Mind you the Laffs were terrible before Quinn arrived on the scene.

George Gross, normally one of the biggest apologists for the MLSE , has been forced to write what has been painfully obvious to all but the brain dead ? the Laffs do not know how to draft. This is particularly germane at the moment as the team is allegedly going with ?youth? on the back line. Given the past draft history this is not a strategy that appears workable.

Gross had the chance to see the team?s analysis of its draft record and it is not a pretty sight. Bear in mind this comes from a document entitled ?NHL Draft Analysis 1990-2002." which was produced by what is laughingly referred to as a ?scouting department? for this hapless bunch of fools. Gross writes:

?A focal point for analysis by the Leafs brass centred on the percentage of players drafted during the period who subsequently played at least 100 games in the NHL.
Surprisingly, the Carolina Hurricanes were on top, with 25 of their 116 drafted players, or 21.6%, breaking the century mark for NHL games played.
The Hurricanes were followed by the Vancouver Canucks (27 of 127, 21.3%) and the San Jose Sharks (24 of 113, 21.2%). The other top-five clubs were the New Jersey Devils (31 of 147, 21.0%) and Colorado Avalanche (30 of 149, 20.1%)
And where were the Leafs, you might ask? The Buds landed in the marginal territory of 17th overall with a record of 20 of 132, or 15.2%. And there may lie one of the key reasons that the team hasn't won the Stanley Cup in recent memory.
With the exception of the Sharks, all the teams noted above played in the Stanley Cup final in the past 10 years, and New Jersey and Colorado have won it all multiple times.
This particular analysis gets even worse for the Leafs for players drafted in the past five years who have managed to play at least 50 NHL games. Surprisingly Colorado (nine) and New Jersey (seven) are the top two, even though both were slated to draft very late in each round because of their high regular-season finishes. Not surprisingly, the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning also had seven players.
The Leafs? I had to pull out my magnifying glass because they were in LAST place with ONE player making the grade.?

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Toront...10/157487.html

Let?s take a closer look at the Laffable drafting record. Go back to the infamous 1989 Draft when they had three first round picks and check it out. The last five years analysed have been particularly brutal and while it is true that you cannot lay the entire blame at the feet of Quinn and his incredibly poorly performing chief scout, Mike Penny for the entire period ? bear in mind that prior to relocating to Toronto, Quinn and Penny did their draft comedy routine on the West Coast. Some of the worst first picks of all-time were made during Quinn?s tenure in Vancouver (with their over-all position noted) including Jason Herter (8), Shawn Antoski (18), Alek Stojanov (7), Libor Polasek (21), Mike Wilson (20), Chris McAllister (40) and Josh Holden (12). A record of true futility.

For fun (well my fun anyway and all those who are not Toronto centric homers) I have compiled a list of Laffs drafts from the 1989 disaster up to 2000. I did not go later as those picks have yet to develop and most would agree if you cannot get it right in your top three picks you are unlikely to mine the depths of the draft successfully. The only draft which may be termed successful for this sad excuse for a franchise would be the 1990 draft.

Note the Laffs have started as low as 57 before this year when they selected the immortal Jeff Farkas in 1997. I have listed the first three picks (except for 1989 where I have listed 4) and the drafting position as well as the player's career games with the Laffs and NHL as well as how he was moved (if he was). I have also noted some notable NHL'ers who were still available when the selection was made and placed them in brackets.

In many cases (as in this year) the Laffs have started far down the draft order but that is more often due to bad GM'ing rather than great play during the season. Read 'em and weep.

1989
3 C Scott Thornton 33 games with Leafs,652 NHL games, traded to Edmonton with Vincent Damphousse, Peter Ing, Luke Richardson, future considerations and cash for Grant Fuhr, Glenn Anderson and Craig Berube, September 1991 (Stu Barnes, Bill Guerin, Bobby Holik)
12 R Rob Pearson 192 games with Leafs, 77 other NHL games, last played in Germany for the Frankfurt Lions in 2001 (Kevin Haller, Olaf Kolzig, Steven Rice)
21 D Steve Bancroft 0 games with Leafs, 6 NHL games, traded to Boston by Toronto for Rob Cimetta in November 1990, playing in the AHL (next three picks- Adam Foote, Travis Green and Kent Manderville, Mike Craig, Patrice Brisebois, Bob Boughner, Greg Johnson, Byron Dafoe, Paul Laus, Ted Drury, Rob Zamuner, Scott Pellerin, Louie DeBrusk, Nicklas Lidstrom, Wes Walz, Jason Woolley, Kris Draper)
66 D Matt Martin 76 games with Leafs, 0 other NHL games, signed as a free agent by Dallas, July 1998, 2002-03 played for the Idaho Steelheads of the WCHL (Jim Cummins, Robert Reichel, Jim McKenzie, Sergei Fedorov, Josef Beranek, Trent Klatt, Aaron Miller, Pavel Bure, Dallas Drake, Derek Plante, Donald Audette, Vladimir Malakhov, Arturs Irbe, Vladimir Konstantinov)

1990
10 D Drake Berehowsky 124 games with Leafs, 493 total NHL games, traded to Pittsburgh by Toronto for Grant Jennings in April 1995 (Trevor Kidd, Turner Stevenson, Brad May, Karl Dykhuis, Keith Tkachuk, Martin Brodeur, Bryan Smolinski, Jiri Slegr, Chris Simon)
31 G Felix Potvin 418 games with Leafs, 681 total NHL games, traded to New York Islanders with 6th round choice in 1999 Entry Draft for Bryan Berard and Islanders' 6th round pick (Jan Sochor) in 1999 Entry Draft in January 1999 (Doug Weight, Geoff Sanderson, Slava Kozlov, Chris Therien)
73 C Darby Hendrickson 235 games with Leafs, 484 total NHL games, traded to Islanders with Sean Haggerty, Kenny Jonsson and Toronto's 1st round choice (Roberto Luongo) in 1997 Entry Draft for Wendel Clark, Mathieu Schneider and D.J. Smith in March 1996, traded back to Toronto by the Islanders for a conditional choice in 1998 Entry Draft in October 1996 ? currently playing with Minnesota (Alexei Zhamnov, Sergei Zubov, Gino Odjick, Richard Smehlik, Craig Conroy, Jason York, Robert Lang, Andrei Kovalenko, Peter Bondra, Alexander Karpovtsev, Ken Klee, Valeri Zelepukin, Sergei Nemchinov)

1991
47 C Yanic Perreault,13 initial games with Leafs, 602 total NHL games, traded to LA for 4th round choice in 1996 Entry Draft in July 1994, traded back to Toronto for Jason Podollan and a 3rd round pick in 1999 Entry Draft in March 1999, signed as a free agent by Montreal in July 2001 (Sandy McCarthy, Chris Osgood, Steve Konowalchuk, Michael Nylander, Nathan LaFayette, Dave Karpa)
69 R Terry Chitaroni, 0 games in the NHL (Igor Kravchuk, Mike Knuble, Alexei Zhitnik, Juha Ylonen, Steve Shields)
102 C Alexei Kudashov 25 games with Leafs, returned to Europe 1995 (Mariusz Czerkawski, Bill Lindsay, Dmitri Yushkevich, Sean O'Donnell, Brian Holzinger, Oleg Petrov, Andreas Johansson, Andrei Lomakin, Janne Laukkanen, Brian Savage, Igor Ulanov)

1992
8 C Brandon Convery, 50 games with Leafs, 72 total NHL games,traded to Vancouver for Lonny Bohonos in March 1998, claimed on waivers by Los Angels in November 1998, now playing in Switzerland (Robert Petrovicky, Andrei Nazarov, Sergei Krivokrasov, Sergei Gonchar, Jason Smith, Martin Straka)
23 R Grant Marshall 0 games with Leafs, 559 total NHL games 1994, sent to the Dallas Stars with Peter Zezel as compensation for Leafs' signing Mike Craig, 2001 traded to Columbus, 2003 traded to NJ ,TWO STANLEY CUPS,(Boris Mironov, Valeri Bure, Jeff Shantz, Igor Korolev, Mike Peca, Sergei Brylin, Darren McCarty, Andrei Nikolishin, Mattias Norstrom , Manny Fernandez, Sergei Zholtok, Kirk Maltby, Cale Hulse, Craig Rivet, Eric Cairns, Aaron Gavey)
77 R Nikolai Borschevsky 142 games with Leafs, 162 total NHL games, traded for Calgary's 6th round choice (Chris Bogas) in 1996 Entry Draft in April 1995, signed as a free agent by Dallas in September 1995 and now playing in Russia (Robert Svehla #78, Matthew Barnaby, Jere Lehtinen, Marcus Ragnarsson, Adrian Aucoin, Rem Murray, Ian Laperriere, Stephane Yelle, Nikolai Khabibulin, Anson Carter, Jonas Hoglund, Dan McGillis,)

1993
12 D Kenny Jonsson 89 games and traded to the NYI (where he has played for 9 seasons) with Sean Haggerty, Darby Hendrickson and Toronto's 1st round choice (Roberto Luongo) in 1997 Entry Draft for Wendel Clark, Mathieu Schneider and D.J. Smith in March 1996 ( Adam Deadmarsh, Jason Allison,)
19 R Landon Wilson 0 games with Leafs, 294 NHL games, his rights were traded June 1994 with Wendel Clark, Sylvain Lefebvre and a first-round draft pick to the Québec Nordiques (Avs) for Mats Sundin, Garth Butcher, Todd Warriner and a first-round draft pick, 1996 traded to the Bruins, 2000 signed as free agent with the Coyotes,(Mike Wilson, Saku Koivu, Todd Bertuzzi, Jay Pandolfo, Jamie Langenbrunner, Janne Niinimaa, Brendan Morrison, Bryan McCabe, Kevin Weekes, Jamie Rivers, Krzysztof Oliwa, Vaclav Prospal, Marek Malik, Eric Daze, Miroslav Satan, Tommy Salo)
123 R Zdenek Nedved, 31 games with Leafs, 1998 back in Europe (Scott Walker, Michal Grosek, Darcy Tucker, Todd Marchant, Darren Van Impe, Andrew Brunette, Eric Boguniecki, Hal Gill, Mike Grier, Pavol Demitra, German Titov)

1994
16 G Eric Fichaud, 0 games with Leafs, 95 NHL games traded to NYI for Benoit Hogue, New York Islanders' 3rd round choice (Ryan Pepperall) in 1995 Entry Draft and 5th round choice (Brandon Sugden) in 1996 Entry Draft in April 1995, currently in the AHL (Wayne Primeau, Chris Dingman, Dan Cloutier, Deron Quint, Ryan Johnson, Dave Scatchard, Curtis Brown, Jose Theodore)
48 L Sean Haggerty 1 game with Leafs, 14 total NHL games, traded to NYI with Darby Hendrickson, Kenny Jonsson and Toronto's 1st round choice (Roberto Luongo) in 1997 Entry Draft for Wendel Clark, Mathieu Schnieder and D.J. Smith in March 1996, claimed by Nashville from NYIoff waivers in May 2000, now out of hockey (the next three picks were Mathieu Dandenault, Richard Park and Patrik Elias - Chris Murray, Vitali Yachmenev, Jason Strudwick)
64 L Fredrik Modin 167 games with Leafs, 503 total NHL games, October 1999 traded to Tampa Bay for Cory Cross and a seventh-round draft pick in 2001, (Sheldon Souray, Chris Drury, Milan Hejduk, Vaclav Varada, Brad Lukowich, Pavel Trnka, Marty Turco, Jon (Bates) Battaglia, Daniel Alfredsson, Bryce Salvador, Alexander Selivanov, Colin Forbes, Steve Webb, Evgeny Nabokov, Bill Muckalt, Tomas Vokoun, Steve Sullivan, Tyson Nash, Richard Zednik, Tomas Holmstrom, Kim Johnsson)

1995
15 D Jeff Ware 15 games with Leafs, 21 total NHL games, traded to Florida for David Nemirovsky February 1999, signed as a free agent by Columbus in 2001, retired from AHL 2002 (Martin Biron, Petr Sykora, Brian Boucher, Marc Denis, Maxim Kuznetsov, Georges Laraque, Marc Chouinard, Jochen Hecht)
54 R Ryan Pepperall O games with Leafs and 0 NHL games, retired in 2002 after playing for the BC Icemen of the UHL (Vladimir Tsyplakov, Peter Schaefer, Brad Isbister, Alyn McCauley, Sami Kapanen, Daniel Tjarnqvist, Marc Savard, Michal Handzus, Miikka Kiprusoff, Jan Hrdina,
139 G Doug Bonner 0 games for Leafs, 0 NHL games, career minor leaguer, retired in 2001 (Brent Sopel, Clarke Wilm, Denis Hamel, Stephane Robidas, Peter Worrell, P.J. Axelsson, Jean-Luc Grand-Pierre, Filip Kuba)

1996
36 D Marek Posmyk 0 games with Leafs, 19 total NHL games traded to Tampa Bay with Mike Johnson and 5th and 6th round draft picks in 2000 Entry Draft for Darcy Tucker and a 4th round draft pick in 2000 Entry Draft and a conditional draft pick in 2001 Entry Draft in February 2000, signed as a free agent with Continental Zlin (Czech-Rep)August 2001 (Steve Begin, Jan Bulis, Mathieu Garon, Colin White)
50 G Francis Larivee 0 games for Leafs and in NHL, career minor leaguer retired 2001 (Zdeno Chara, Tom Poti, Scott Parker, Oleg Kvasha)
66 D Mike Lankshear 0 games Leafs and NHL, career minor leaguer now playing in Scotland for the Newcastle Vipers (Mark Parrish, Arron Asham, Gordie Dwyer)

1997
57 F Jeff Farkas, 8 games with Leafs, 11 total NHL games, traded to Vancouver for Josh Holden, June 2002, traded to Atlanta for Chris Nielsen and Chris Herperger, January 2003 (next pick-Jani Hurme, Maxim Afinogenov, Ville Nieminen)
84 R Adam Mair, 29 games as Leaf, 89 total NHL games, traded to Los Angeles with a 2nd round draft pick in 2001 Entry Draft for Aki Berg, March 2001, traded to Buffalo with a 5th round pick in 2003 Entry Draft for Erik Rasmussen, July 2002 (Shane Willis, Ivan Novoseltsev,)
111 L Frank Mrazek 0 games with Leafs, 0 NHL games, returned to Czechoslovakia in 2001, (Magnus Arvedson, Jason Chimera, Kyle Calder, Mike York, Matt Cooke, Brian Campbell, David Aebischer, Todd Fedoruk, Ladislav Nagy, Antti Laaksonen, Andrew Ference, Mark Smith, Karel Rachunek)

1998
10 C Nikolai Antropov, 201 games with Leafs (Alex Tanguay, Dmitri Kalinin, Robyn Regehr, Scott Parker, Simon Gagne, Milan Kraft, Jiri Fischer, Scott Gomez, Artem Chubarov)
35 D Petr Svoboda, 18 games with Leafs (Ossi Vaananen, Mike Fisher, Mike Ribeiro, Jonathan Girard, Denis Arkhipov, Brad Richards, Jarkko Ruutu)
69 G Jamie Hodson, O games with Leafs & NHL, in the ECHL (Erik Cole, Brian Gionta, Josef Vasicek, Tommy Westlund, Shawn Horcoff, Petr Schastlivy, Jaroslav Spacek, Jiri Dopita, Tomas Kloucek, Mikael Samuelsson, Chris Neil, Andrei Markov, Ales Kotalik, Pavel Datsyuk, Niko Kapanen, Tyler Arnason, Karlis Skrastins)

1999
24 C Luca Cereda, 0 games with Leafs (Martin Havlat, Alexei Semenov, Alex Auld, Mike Commodore, Jordan Leopold, Sheldon Keefe, Adam Hall)
60 D Peter Reynolds, 0 Leafs & NHL games, re-entered NHL Entry Draft, Carolina's 9th round pick in 2001 Entry Draft (274th Overall) playing in the ECHL (Niklas Hagman, Frantisek Kaberle, Niclas Havelid, Mike Comrie, Branko Radivojevic)
108 L Mirko Murovic 0 Leafs & NHL games, returned to Europe and plays in the Swiss League (Martin Prusek, Martin Erat, Henrik Zetterberg, Radim Vrbata, Radek Martinek, Petr Tenkrat, Alexander Khavanov, Mikko Eloranta)

2000
24 C Brad Boyes 0 games with Leafs & NHL, traded to San Jose with Alyn McCauley and a 1st round pick in 2003 Entry Draft in March 2003 for Owen Nolan (Brian Sutherby, Justin Williams, Nick Schultz)
51 L Kristopher Vernarsky 0 games with Leafs, 14 NHL games for Boston, traded to Boston for Richard Jackman May 2002 (Andreas Lilja, Ivan Huml)
70 G Mikael Tellqvist 3 games with Leafs (Michael Rupp, Alexander Kharitonov, Kurt Sauer, Niclas Wallin)

And this is an organization that intends to rely upon its youth??? LOL and ROTFLMAO.

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09-28-2003, 07:34 AM
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are we supposed to get upset by this and call you a shmuck ?

who cares, we've got the money to fill in the holes.

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09-28-2003, 07:53 AM
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Well, you stopped at 2000 - when Quinn really got control over the process. Moreover, your crop-job left out interesting late-round selections like Kaberle and Markov - two very good players still not at the peaks of their respective careers.

Then, when we consider the drafts of the past four years, we start to see a pattern emerging: The Leafs now boast a roster of defense prospects as good as any: Pilar, Colaicovo, Kondratiev, Bell and Harrison. One of these (Pilar, who was passed on by a number of teams) has already demonstrated that he can play at a very high level during the most difficult time of the season. Fluke? We shall see, but my money is on him putting together a solid NHL career beginning this season. At least two of the rest (Cola and Kondratiev) will have very good careers in the NHL - there is just too much raw talent in both of them for them not to find a place somewhere, with some team in this league. Both can skate, move the puck, and Kondratiev has shown good defensive positioning and an ability to take the body. Interestingly, if one watched the WJC championships last year, Kondratiev looked like a solid stay-at-home type, however during this training camp, he has shown that his offensive instincts and skills are formidable in their own right.

So, in short, while there are no clear-cut 'superstars' among them (are there ever any SURE things?) while they don't have a Pitkanen, for instance, they make up for it with the sheer depth of their prospect pool at that position. Moreover, in the same period they have picked solid forward prospects like Steen and Stajan who are likely to play quite a few games in the NHL in the next couple of years. Steen, barring some strange happening, WILL have a long, steady, and solid career as an NHLer down the road. Take that to the bank.

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09-28-2003, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Toronto's 1st round choice (Roberto Luongo) in 1997 Entry Draft .
Someone made a bonehead trade....

but anyway, if this is supposed to offend us your dead wrong.

Find something more productive to do with your time,instead of trying to bother people.

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09-28-2003, 08:03 AM
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Yeah it's an abysmal record. Too bad it has virtually nothing to do with Quinn as 95% of everything you listed happened before he arrived.

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09-28-2003, 08:13 AM
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i dont know about you all, but i like the young crop of talent being put together:

G: tellqvist centomo ford racine hodson

D: colaiacovo kondratiev hedin pilar doherty bell harrison kronwall

F: antropov steen stajan wellwood immonen

the next few drafts they should focus on forwards more

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09-28-2003, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.l.f.
are we supposed to get upset by this and call you a shmuck ?

who cares, we've got the money to fill in the holes.

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09-28-2003, 08:59 AM
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Yes, Canuckfan and his ZERO Cups would know a lot about pathetic franchises.

Did you know that the Canucks have only been .500 for around a third of their existence?

p.s. Cannotfan, you will need more than one line and a real #1 goalie to win anything, not that Vancouver ever will.

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09-28-2003, 09:00 AM
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That's quite a compilation of draft history, TERRIBLE draft history. WOW is all I can say! It's actually heartbreaking and mindblowing what kind of terrible selections management made between 1989 and 2000. Now, I know you can't always be lucky and make the right draft choices but there is quite an impressive list of stars that the Leafs missed out on. I've gone through it and chose who they COULD have picked in each round for each yr instead of who they actually did select (just for fun), and it's mind-boggling what kind of team we could have had. I didn't include every round that was shown cause some of the picks either worked out OK or there was nothing better available. I know management can't always be right, but some of these guys could realistically be Leafs right now, oh well here we go:

1989 - Bobby Holik, Nik Lidstrom, Sergei Fedorov, ouch!

1990 - Martin Brodeur, Doug Weight, Peter Bondra

1991 - Alexei Zhitnik

1992 - Sergei Gonchar, Mike Peca, Anson Carter

1993 - Jason Allison, Todd Bertuzzi, Pavol Demitra

1994 - Jose Theodore (instead of Fichaud), Patrik Elias, one of Milan Hejduk, Chris Drury or Marty Turco

1995 - Petr Sykora, Brad Isbister, Brent Sopel

1996 - Colin White, Zdeno Chara

1997 - Matt Cooke

1998 - I'm quite satisfied with Antropov, but just for info purposes there was also Simon Gagne, and Scott Gomez available in that round. Other rounds there was Mike Fisher, then Pavel Datsyuk

1999 - Martin Havlat (instead of Luca Cereda EEEEK!!), Mike Comrie, Henrik Zetterberg

Wow that's tough to swallow. Some franchise players in there (Brodeur, Fedorov, Lidstrom, then Bertuzzi, Chara etc!) Oh well. We are finally stock piling good young talent these days, and we seem to be in good shape. But ohhhhhhh that stings lol.

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09-28-2003, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Yes, Canuckfan and his ZERO Cups would know a lot about pathetic franchises.

Did you know that the Canucks have only been .500 for around a third of their existence?

p.s. Cannotfan, you will need more than one line and a real #1 goalie to win anything, not that Vancouver ever will.
And what possible interest would the Canuck record hold for me?

LOL and ROTFLMAO. What ever gave you the idea that I am a fan of Bully Boy Brian Burke and his team of underachievers? I was a fan of the Leafs from the mid-1950's until finally being driven away by Prince Hal (another bully of the first order) and his prematurely orange hair in the 1970's. I have seen little to commend my return to the fold since. For a brief history of a racist bully and truly disgusting person see:
http://www.sportsfaculty.com/harold.htm

Quinn's time in Vancouver, as I pointed out resulted in a draft history only rivalled by the Laffs. Take a team with historically poor drafting (the Laffs) and add a management team (Quinn and Penney) that could not draft when in Vancouver and you end up with the current mess.

I note you were completely unable to respond to my fact backed points and instead turned it into a bash against another team. How typical.

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09-28-2003, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
LOL and ROTFLMAO. .
EIFHOGHIEOIFJFLKDJLFKJDSLKV

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09-28-2003, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
.
oh yeah, you can't bold thread titles nimrod..

WEIPOIENOIFOEDHJASIJDOA

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09-28-2003, 09:34 AM
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You spent a lot of time on old news that has virtually nothing to do with Quinn.

Actually we will find that Quinn has been the best drafter the Leafs have had in 15-20 years. Traditionally, the Leafs have been weak, not Quinn while in Toronto.

Youth movement? Why not - Quinn drafted a lot of defensemen - the hardest commodity to acquire. In 2 years you will find as many as 4 or 5 Quinn dreafted D men playing for the Leafs.

Goalie - the Leafs are strong in prospects.

At forward, not as strong, bu these are the easiest to acquire.

PLUS

Only 3 or 4 guys have contracts going into the new CBA so the Leafs will not be saddled with stupid contracts from the old CBA - therefore, they will be able to acquire good talent at true market values.

Buddy, you are the most informed uninformed guy on this board.

PLUS Farkas was traded for Holden - Holden has NHL potential in my opinion but Farkas never did even before his career ending injury.

Plus

Vernarsky was unsigned by the Leafs but trade for Jackman - I believe that this will go as one of the most one-sided trades in recent years once they both show their true worth in the NHL (give it another year or two).

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09-28-2003, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Quinn's time in Vancouver, as I pointed out resulted in a draft history only rivalled by the Laffs. Take a team with historically poor drafting (the Laffs) and add a management team (Quinn and Penney) that could not draft when in Vancouver and you end up with the current mess.
Nobody is going to disagree with the notion that this organization has historically had horrible drafts. Since Quinn has arrived, however, he's done a pretty good job replenishing the system with promising prospects. If you're going to bash Quinn, at least look at what he's drafted the past 3 or 4 years here. He's been here for what, 4 drafts? 1989 - 1999 has no bearing whatsoever on the "Quinn-Penny" duo.

There is no current mess. Led by Colaiacovo and Steen, the current prospect pool isn't bad by any standards. Before you cast a stone and automatically assume that Quinn's picks here will fail like they did in Vancouver, you should give them time. Let them hit puberty for god sakes

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09-28-2003, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
And what possible interest would the Canuck record hold for me?

LOL and ROTFLMAO. What ever gave you the idea that I am a fan of Bully Boy Brian Burke and his team of underachievers? I was a fan of the Leafs from the mid-1950's until finally being driven away by Prince Hal (another bully of the first order) and his prematurely orange hair in the 1970's. I have seen little to commend my return to the fold since. For a brief history of a racist bully and truly disgusting person see:
I thought your handle was "Westcoaster". My bad.

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09-28-2003, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
You spent a lot of time on old news that has virtually nothing to do with Quinn.

Actually we will find that Quinn has been the best drafter the Leafs have had in 15-20 years. Traditionally, the Leafs have been weak, not Quinn while in Toronto.

Youth movement? Why not - Quinn drafted a lot of defensemen - the hardest commodity to acquire. In 2 years you will find as many as 4 or 5 Quinn dreafted D men playing for the Leafs.

Goalie - the Leafs are strong in prospects.

At forward, not as strong, bu these are the easiest to acquire.

PLUS

Only 3 or 4 guys have contracts going into the new CBA so the Leafs will not be saddled with stupid contracts from the old CBA - therefore, they will be able to acquire good talent at true market values.

Buddy, you are the most informed uninformed guy on this board.

PLUS Farkas was traded for Holden - Holden has NHL potential in my opinion but Farkas never did even before his career ending injury.

Plus

Vernarsky was unsigned by the Leafs but trade for Jackman - I believe that this will go as one of the most one-sided trades in recent years once they both show their true worth in the NHL (give it another year or two).
Actually if you really read what I wrote you would have noted that the Laff's own analysis as quoted by Gross covered up to the 2002 draft. In the last five years, when Quinn was there for the most part, the Laffs were LAST in the NHL. While the period from 1989 was bad, the last five years have been worse. Remember this is the Laff's own analysis.

"This particular analysis gets even worse for the Leafs for players drafted in the past five years who have managed to play at least 50 NHL games. Surprisingly Colorado (nine) and New Jersey (seven) are the top two, even though both were slated to draft very late in each round because of their high regular-season finishes. Not surprisingly, the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning also had seven players.

The Leafs? I had to pull out my magnifying glass because they were in LAST place with ONE player making the grade.”


BTW I am not your "Buddy" nor would I wish to be. If you wish to see uninformed just take a look in the mirror.

HOLDEN??? NHL potential. LOL Pair him with Drunken (intentional spelling), another failed Canucker and you have a couple of never will be's to go with the current roster never was's.

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09-28-2003, 10:06 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by ThinkBlue
Nobody is going to disagree with the notion that this organization has historically had horrible drafts. Since Quinn has arrived, however, he's done a pretty good job replenishing the system with promising prospects. If you're going to bash Quinn, at least look at what he's drafted the past 3 or 4 years here. He's been here for what, 4 drafts? 1989 - 1999 has no bearing whatsoever on the "Quinn-Penny" duo.

There is no current mess. Led by Colaiacovo and Steen, the current prospect pool isn't bad by any standards. Before you cast a stone and automatically assume that Quinn's picks here will fail like they did in Vancouver, you should give them time. Let them hit puberty for god sakes
These guys have yet to make it to THE SHOW. The Laffs draft history I set out is littered with "can't miss" prospects who somehow missed. Check back in 3-5 years to see what last year's drafts do.

There is a current mess according to the Laffs' own analysis.

Actually if you really read what I wrote you would have noted that the Laff's own analysis as quoted by Gross covered up to the 2002 draft. In the last five years, when Quinn was there for the most part, the Laffs were LAST in the NHL. While the period from 1989 was bad, the last five years have been worse. Remember this is the Laff's own analysis.

"This particular analysis gets even worse for the Leafs for players drafted in the past five years who have managed to play at least 50 NHL games. Surprisingly Colorado (nine) and New Jersey (seven) are the top two, even though both were slated to draft very late in each round because of their high regular-season finishes. Not surprisingly, the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning also had seven players.

The Leafs? I had to pull out my magnifying glass because they were in LAST place with ONE player making the grade.”

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09-28-2003, 10:08 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by andora's box
oh yeah, you can't bold thread titles nimrod..

WEIPOIENOIFOEDHJASIJDOA
That is the best you can do??????... And you call me a nimrod. How sad.

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09-28-2003, 10:09 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Actually if you really read what I wrote you would have noted that the Laff's own analysis as quoted by Gross covered up to the 2002 draft. In the last five years, when Quinn was there for the most part, the Laffs were LAST in the NHL. While the period from 1989 was bad, the last five years have been worse. Remember this is the Laff's own analysis.

"This particular analysis gets even worse for the Leafs for players drafted in the past five years who have managed to play at least 50 NHL games. Surprisingly Colorado (nine) and New Jersey (seven) are the top two, even though both were slated to draft very late in each round because of their high regular-season finishes. Not surprisingly, the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning also had seven players.

The Leafs? I had to pull out my magnifying glass because they were in LAST place with ONE player making the grade.”


BTW I am not your "Buddy" nor would I wish to be. If you wish to see uninformed just take a look in the mirror.

HOLDEN??? NHL potential. LOL Pair him with Drunken (intentional spelling), another failed Canucker and you have a couple of never will be's to go with the current roster never was's.
I'd suggest you do a bit more research there. Quinn's first year here as a GM was in 2000. That was his first draft year. The Last "5 Years" according to the article goes back to 1998. If you look at the Colorado 9 and NJ 7, MOST of them are draftees from 98 and 99 (i.e. PRE QUINN). Tell me HOW many of NJ's prospects and Colorado's prospects in the last THREE years (2000-> )(Quinn) have made the pro team. I dont think you'll find the #'s far off. That said, guys like Kondratiev and Colaiacovo are basically ready to step in now, and Tellqvist will start the season with the team.

You can call us the "LAffs" all you want. You can LOL or LFMAO all you want. It still doesn't make your cause any more noble. And it still makes you look like an unintelligent dimwit who fails to do his research.

Case closed.

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09-28-2003, 10:09 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by PepNCheese
I thought your handle was "Westcoaster". My bad.
Actually it is WETcoaster. Apology accepted.

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09-28-2003, 10:14 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
That is the best you can do??????... And you call me a nimrod. How sad.
that actually is the best i can do.. when i read all those words and really take nothing from it.. that is all i can do... can't reply to nothing...

what user did you used to be?... or did you register just for this purpose ?

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09-28-2003, 10:16 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
These guys have yet to make it to THE SHOW. The Laffs draft history I set out is littered with "can't miss" prospects who somehow missed. Check back in 3-5 years to see what last year's drafts do.

There is a current mess according to the Laffs' own analysis.

Actually if you really read what I wrote you would have noted that the Laff's own analysis as quoted by Gross covered up to the 2002 draft. In the last five years, when Quinn was there for the most part, the Laffs were LAST in the NHL. While the period from 1989 was bad, the last five years have been worse. Remember this is the Laff's own analysis.

"This particular analysis gets even worse for the Leafs for players drafted in the past five years who have managed to play at least 50 NHL games. Surprisingly Colorado (nine) and New Jersey (seven) are the top two, even though both were slated to draft very late in each round because of their high regular-season finishes. Not surprisingly, the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning also had seven players.

The Leafs? I had to pull out my magnifying glass because they were in LAST place with ONE player making the grade.”
I like reading your posts....It gives us a different angle on things......I was just wondering though, What would it take for you personally to become a fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs once again?

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09-28-2003, 10:30 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by monkey_00
I like reading your posts....It gives us a different angle on things......I was just wondering though, What would it take for you personally to become a fan of the Toronto Maple Leafs once again?
Glad you appreciate the posts. Unlike many posters I am not a cheerleader and I have worked in hockey at the NHL level.

Get rid of Quinn and Penney, do not cancel the Easter Seals Skates with kids, get a scouting department, commit to winning not just making money, honour past players like Dave Keon (my favourite ex-Leaf) ... and get rid of the idiot fans who believe that the world and the NHL revolves around Toronto who beginning planning the Stanley Cup parade when journeymen D-men like Marchment and Klee are signed.

Just a wish list.

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09-28-2003, 10:38 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Glad you appreciate the posts. Unlike many posters I am not a cheerleader and I have worked in hockey at the NHL level.

Get rid of Quinn and Penney, do not cancel the Easter Seals Skates with kids, get a scouting department, commit to winning not just making money, honour past players like Dave Keon (my favourite ex-Leaf) ... and get rid of the idiot fans who believe that the world and the NHL revolves around Toronto who beginning planning the Stanley Cup parade when journeymen D-men like Marchment and Klee are signed.

Just a wish list.
Fair enough...I can understand with your frustration as I have been a Leafs fan all my life and have lived through those gawd awful Leafs teams that Ballard use to be owner of....He was the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to this organization.......and for me personally the best thing that ever happened to this Leafs team since then was when he passed away.......having said that the Leafs are no where the team they were under Ballard BUT they are no where to being a Cup Contender either Until they vastly improve their group of defencemen........and the way they just cancelled the Easter Seals Skates with the kids well, I was just disgusted with it when I found that out.........

Marchment and Klee are "all right" but I hope the Leafs don't stop there....we could still use some more help on our blueline........It's funny how a group of Leafs fans were planning a HUGE protest just outside of Air Canada Centre because of the lack of movement or signings of free-agents in the off-season by the Leafs BUT as soon as Marchment got signed up there was no more word of this Protest happening.....I guess Marchment was enough.

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09-28-2003, 10:47 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by monkey_00
Fair enough...I can understand with your frustration as I have been a Leafs fan all my life and have lived through those gawd awful Leafs teams that Ballard use to be owner of....He was the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to this organization.......and for me personally the best thing that ever happened to this Leafs team since then was when he passed away.......having said that the Leafs are no where the team they were under Ballard BUT they are no where to being a Cup Contender either Until they vastly improve their group of defencemen........and the way they just cancelled the Easter Seals Skates with the kids well, I was just disgusted with it when I found that out.........

Marchment and Klee are "all right" but I hope the Leafs don't stop there....we could still use some more help on our blueline........It's funny how a group of Leafs fans were planning a HUGE protest just outside of Air Canada Centre because of the lack of movement or signings of free-agents in the off-season by the Leafs BUT as soon as Marchment got signed up there was no more word of this Protest happening.....I guess Marchment was enough.
Yes and the MLSE will happily continue to shear the sheep that pass for fans in TO. Until something happens that hits the pocketbook, there is little incentive to change. It is one thing to be a fan, it is another to be delusional.

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