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Old
11-05-2013, 01:27 PM
  #126
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I agree completely.

Not only is Toffoli a really great kid but while he was with the 67's I skated and hung out with (and the team) a few times and he was always one of the more well thought of guys out there. I have known TT for a few years and he has zero guile. No sense of entitlement or at least none that I have ever seen and that goes pretty far back.

What I have seen is a kid who has a desperate need and an iron will to prove his detractors wrong. He believes he is ready to play in the NHL and develop his game into being one of the top players in the league.

That's all I have ever seen in him and to me those are really good qualities.
There could be a number of reasons Toffoli was sent down after training camp. I don't necessarily think it was due to entitlement issues. However, he did not really show up in the rookie games, and maybe Sutter and Lombardi were looking for him to assert himself in that environment.

Could also be that the Kings' brass wanted him to go down to Manchester and show that he is hungry, be dominant, and lead that team to success.

TT definitely has the skill set to pot a ton of goals in the NHL, and he seems to show up in the right areas in the offensive zone to make it happen. The Kings have a good one in him, and Sutter will find a way to use him.

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11-05-2013, 01:47 PM
  #127
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Watching him quite a bit here in Manchester, what he likes to do in the offensive zone becomes quite predictable over time.
If ur consistently getting to the right spots on the ice it probably has more to do with being very good at reading the play and consistently getting there at the right time probably is the exact opposite of being predictable.

When I watch Toffoli play I am always impressed with his ability to get to the dangerous spots on the ice at the right time. What makes it even more impressive is that he is in control and is able to put himself in position to make a play when he receives the puck. So he is not just getting there but doing it with the control and understanding to be a threat when the puck gets there.

ive always felt that this is something that at a certain point in an athletes development it really cant be learned. You either understand it or you dont and I think toffoli does understand s this at an incredibly high level.

Toffoli is a special kid and I look forward to watching his "predictability" for years to come.

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11-05-2013, 01:57 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
There could be a number of reasons Toffoli was sent down after training camp. I don't necessarily think it was due to entitlement issues. However, he did not really show up in the rookie games, and maybe Sutter and Lombardi were looking for him to assert himself in that environment.

Could also be that the Kings' brass wanted him to go down to Manchester and show that he is hungry, be dominant, and lead that team to success.

TT definitely has the skill set to pot a ton of goals in the NHL, and he seems to show up in the right areas in the offensive zone to make it happen. The Kings have a good one in him, and Sutter will find a way to use him.
I think you hit the nail on the head K17.

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11-05-2013, 08:31 PM
  #129
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There could be a number of reasons Toffoli was sent down after training camp. I don't necessarily think it was due to entitlement issues. However, he did not really show up in the rookie games, and maybe Sutter and Lombardi were looking for him to assert himself in that environment.

Could also be that the Kings' brass wanted him to go down to Manchester and show that he is hungry, be dominant, and lead that team to success.

TT definitely has the skill set to pot a ton of goals in the NHL, and he seems to show up in the right areas in the offensive zone to make it happen. The Kings have a good one in him, and Sutter will find a way to use him.
Do you really think that if TT had a good camp, he would have made our roster? And if so, where do you think Sutter would have played him?

I for one, think Sutter talks out of his ass a lot and don't believe that TT would have made our roster regardless of a good camp or not. But that's just me.

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11-07-2013, 01:32 AM
  #130
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When will he be back?

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11-07-2013, 02:18 AM
  #131
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When will he be back?
Who, Carter? Dude, don't hijack this Toffoli thread.

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11-07-2013, 10:54 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Do you really think that if TT had a good camp, he would have made our roster? And if so, where do you think Sutter would have played him?

I for one, think Sutter talks out of his ass a lot and don't believe that TT would have made our roster regardless of a good camp or not. But that's just me.
Likely on the third line, maybe the 2nd if they wanted to try him on LW again. But break him in on the third line would also help get that 3rd line going and spread the offense out a little.

I think that DL and DS are more than willing to waive/trade Fraser, but at the same time I think they wanted to send a message to Toffoli that if you aren't prepared to work your ass off, you won't get a spot on this team. I don't think Toffoli came in and showed he needed to fight hard for a job -maybe he felt it was his job to lose, not his job to win- and they decided to go let him stew in Manchester for a month to piss him off.

I'd rather have a fired up Toffoli.

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11-07-2013, 11:53 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Do you really think that if TT had a good camp, he would have made our roster? And if so, where do you think Sutter would have played him?

I for one, think Sutter talks out of his ass a lot and don't believe that TT would have made our roster regardless of a good camp or not. But that's just me.
Voynov made the team a few years ago and there was no spot for him either. They sent him down, he played excellent in Manchester and that allowed the Kings to make a trade for Jeff Carter. I don't see any reason Toffoli couldn't work his way onto the roster in a similar fashion.

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11-07-2013, 01:37 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Voynov made the team a few years ago and there was no spot for him either. They sent him down, he played excellent in Manchester and that allowed the Kings to make a trade for Jeff Carter. I don't see any reason Toffoli couldn't work his way onto the roster in a similar fashion.
I agree and I think Lombardi wants it this way. He wants young players to force his hand with their effort. It not only good for the young player if he feels he earned his spot and his teammates both AHL and NHL agree the player earned the spot, it also encourages the whole system to work harder.

Then you have the opposite situation with that trainwreck in Edmonton...

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11-07-2013, 01:49 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
If ur consistently getting to the right spots on the ice it probably has more to do with being very good at reading the play and consistently getting there at the right time probably is the exact opposite of being predictable.

When I watch Toffoli play I am always impressed with his ability to get to the dangerous spots on the ice at the right time. What makes it even more impressive is that he is in control and is able to put himself in position to make a play when he receives the puck. So he is not just getting there but doing it with the control and understanding to be a threat when the puck gets there.

ive always felt that this is something that at a certain point in an athletes development it really cant be learned. You either understand it or you dont and I think toffoli does understand s this at an incredibly high level.

Toffoli is a special kid and I look forward to watching his "predictability" for years to come.
Toffoli shoots 1st, 2nd, and 3rd just like Carter they shoot the puck which causes rebounds and scoring chances. His shots are low and hard and add to that his hands are NHL level. But I have to say he is the ugliest skater I have ever seen in my 40 years of watching Hockey.

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11-07-2013, 02:33 PM
  #136
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Toffoli shoots 1st, 2nd, and 3rd just like Carter they shoot the puck which causes rebounds and scoring chances. His shots are low and hard and add to that his hands are NHL level. But I have to say he is the ugliest skater I have ever seen in my 40 years of watching Hockey.
Uglier than Luc? That's saying something...

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11-07-2013, 07:34 PM
  #137
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Likely on the third line, maybe the 2nd if they wanted to try him on LW again. But break him in on the third line would also help get that 3rd line going and spread the offense out a little.

I think that DL and DS are more than willing to waive/trade Fraser, but at the same time I think they wanted to send a message to Toffoli that if you aren't prepared to work your ass off, you won't get a spot on this team. I don't think Toffoli came in and showed he needed to fight hard for a job -maybe he felt it was his job to lose, not his job to win- and they decided to go let him stew in Manchester for a month to piss him off.

I'd rather have a fired up Toffoli.
I disagree.

Like I've mentioned before, if Pearson who had the strongest camp wasn't able to beat out King, Clifford or Carcillo, there was no way that Toffoli was going to beat out JW, Carter or Lewis.

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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Voynov made the team a few years ago and there was no spot for him either. They sent him down, he played excellent in Manchester and that allowed the Kings to make a trade for Jeff Carter. I don't see any reason Toffoli couldn't work his way onto the roster in a similar fashion.
You just made my point.

It wasn't about whether or not Toffoli had a good camp or not. Bottom line was that there was no roster spot for Toffoli, much like there wasn't one for Voynov's until JJ was traded.

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11-07-2013, 08:29 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post

It wasn't about whether or not Toffoli had a good camp or not. Bottom line was that there was no roster spot for Toffoli, much like there wasn't one for Voynov's until JJ was traded.
Toffoli didn't have a good enough camp to create a roster spot for himself

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11-07-2013, 11:15 PM
  #139
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I disagree.

Like I've mentioned before, if Pearson who had the strongest camp wasn't able to beat out King, Clifford or Carcillo, there was no way that Toffoli was going to beat out JW, Carter or Lewis.



You just made my point.

It wasn't about whether or not Toffoli had a good camp or not. Bottom line was that there was no roster spot for Toffoli, much like there wasn't one for Voynov's until JJ was traded.
He's not going to beat out Clifford or Carcillo, those are different players. King, maybe, but by all accounts King had a good camp too.

Toffoli didn't have a good camp. He was mediocore.

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11-07-2013, 11:34 PM
  #140
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Toffoli didn't have a good enough camp to create a roster spot for himself
I think the Kings front office gives way to much of a benefit to being a "veteran" when it comes to making the team out of camp, that's the only reason I can see guys like Moreau, Hunter, Ivanans, Calder etc. making this team over younger players.

Toffoli looked really good in the playoffs last year, better than most of our forwards, he proved himself on the biggest stage and should have been up with the team all year at the expense of one of the Kings 1000459790 grinders. Why when the team has struggled to score goals do we have Carcillo and Clifford on the roster, do we really need the same player on two lines?

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Toffoli didn't have a good camp. He was mediocore.
And he was stellar in the playoffs last year, and he is an offensive winger on a team dying for offensive wingers. Yet we send him down based on how he played in camp and five exhibition games. Jarret Stoll and Kyle Clifford have been horrible for over a half seasons worth of regular season and playoff games and they never lose their spot, but Toffoli losses his based on training camp.

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11-07-2013, 11:52 PM
  #141
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I think the Kings front office gives way to much of a benefit to being a "veteran" when it comes to making the team out of camp, that's the only reason I can see guys like Moreau, Hunter, Ivanans, Calder etc. making this team over younger players.

Toffoli looked really good in the playoffs last year, better than most of our forwards, he proved himself on the biggest stage and should have been up with the team all year at the expense of one of the Kings 1000459790 grinders. Why when the team has struggled to score goals do we have Carcillo and Clifford on the roster, do we really need the same player on two lines?



And he was stellar in the playoffs last year, and he is an offensive winger on a team dying for offensive wingers. Yet we send him down based on how he played in camp and five exhibition games. Jarret Stoll and Kyle Clifford have been horrible for over a half seasons worth of regular season and playoff games and they never lose their spot, but Toffoli losses his based on training camp.
clifford has been a healthy scratch this season already once so your wrong he has lost his spot for a game.

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11-07-2013, 11:55 PM
  #142
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I think the Kings front office gives way to much of a benefit to being a "veteran" when it comes to making the team out of camp, that's the only reason I can see guys like Moreau, Hunter, Ivanans, Calder etc. making this team over younger players.

Toffoli looked really good in the playoffs last year, better than most of our forwards, he proved himself on the biggest stage and should have been up with the team all year at the expense of one of the Kings 1000459790 grinders. Why when the team has struggled to score goals do we have Carcillo and Clifford on the roster, do we really need the same player on two lines?



And he was stellar in the playoffs last year, and he is an offensive winger on a team dying for offensive wingers. Yet we send him down based on how he played in camp and five exhibition games. Jarret Stoll and Kyle Clifford have been horrible for over a half seasons worth of regular season and playoff games and they never lose their spot, but Toffoli losses his based on training camp.
Clifford has been scratched, Stoll was demoted to the fourth line....Sooo ?

You should be complaining about guys like Lewis/Frattin. They were the guys keeping Toffoli off the roster(most likely RW's).


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11-07-2013, 11:58 PM
  #143
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And he was stellar in the playoffs last year, and he is an offensive winger on a team dying for offensive wingers. Yet we send him down based on how he played in camp and five exhibition games. Jarret Stoll and Kyle Clifford have been horrible for over a half seasons worth of regular season and playoff games and they never lose their spot, but Toffoli losses his based on training camp.
Toffoli had a bad camp and could be sent down without waivers. Stoll and Clifford couldn't. Toffoli didn't outplay those guys in camp. Period. So naturally we'll send down the guy we don't have to lose. If Toffoli would have played like he did in the playoffs this wouldn't be an issue.

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11-08-2013, 11:37 AM
  #144
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Toffoli had a bad camp and could be sent down without waivers. Stoll and Clifford couldn't. Toffoli didn't outplay those guys in camp. Period. So naturally we'll send down the guy we don't have to lose. If Toffoli would have played like he did in the playoffs this wouldn't be an issue.
I think you answered my question with the waivers part of it, because you can't use the "overloaded at his position" or "had a bad camp" excuse for Pearson. He had a great camp and played a position of need and yet was still sent down so we could play Frattin, Carcillo or a joke like Clifford on a scoring line for the 77th time without success.

Management was yet again afraid of losing one of their beloved grinders to make room for a young promising skilled player, and it's not the first time it's happened. I think it was ZiggyStardust who posted about the Kings playing guys like Ivanans, Calder, Thornton, Guiliano, Zeiler etc. while they couldn't find room for Moulson and to some extent Purcell. Since this management team got here they have yet to draft, develop and a player who became a top 6 forward for the Kings, and I think a large part of the problem is they lean way to much on veteran grinders. See Ethan Moreau, who may have been the worst non-goon player I have ever seen play for the Kings, who somehow made the team and played 20+ games before being sent to the glue factory.

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11-08-2013, 11:54 AM
  #145
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I think you answered my question with the waivers part of it, because you can't use the "overloaded at his position" or "had a bad camp" excuse for Pearson. He had a great camp and played a position of need and yet was still sent down so we could play Frattin, Carcillo or a joke like Clifford on a scoring line for the 77th time without success.

Management was yet again afraid of losing one of their beloved grinders to make room for a young promising skilled player, and it's not the first time it's happened. I think it was ZiggyStardust who posted about the Kings playing guys like Ivanans, Calder, Thornton, Guiliano, Zeiler etc. while they couldn't find room for Moulson and to some extent Purcell. Since this management team got here they have yet to draft, develop and a player who became a top 6 forward for the Kings, and I think a large part of the problem is they lean way to much on veteran grinders. See Ethan Moreau, who may have been the worst non-goon player I have ever seen play for the Kings, who somehow made the team and played 20+ games before being sent to the glue factory.
No I didn't answer it for you. I said Clifford and Stoll would be a waste going on waivers. And they would. As much as you dislike Stoll, even you know he has a level of trade value, so waiving his is just dumb.

Someone like Fraser though doesn't, and I don't think LA would lose much sleep over waiving Fraser. Waiving him though would open a roster spot, and you can drop Lewis into it (or even Stoll) and this would allow the team to open a spot for a kid like Pearson. You can juggle a few guys to give Pearson his wing spot and it works fine.

The fact that Pearson couldn't convince DL and crew to give him a spot over Fraser says a lot. And it's not like Fraser is a Sutter favorite, he's in and out of the line up and gets five minutes a game or so. He's easily the most expendable forward we have. Clearly Pearson has something left to work on and that's why he's in the minors.

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11-08-2013, 01:43 PM
  #146
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Fraser is a locker room favorite. Brown specifically mentioned him in an interview about him being a big locker room leader when we won the cup. He wasn't going to lose his spot.

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11-08-2013, 02:34 PM
  #147
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Fraser is a locker room favorite. Brown specifically mentioned him in an interview about him being a big locker room leader when we won the cup. He wasn't going to lose his spot.
So was Penner and Scuderi and even Drewiske.

The nice thing about the Kings is they have a harmonious locker room. But that doesn't guarantee you keep your spot. Sports are fluid, there is change every year almost across the board. The Kings aren't going to refuse to make any moves in order to keep Colin Fraser around.

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11-08-2013, 02:36 PM
  #148
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He's not going to beat out Clifford or Carcillo, those are different players. King, maybe, but by all accounts King had a good camp too.

Toffoli didn't have a good camp. He was mediocore.
Well, you just validated my argument about not having roster spots. Pearson wasn't going to beat out Brown, and as you say, Carcillo or Clifford as their different type of players. And we all know that Sutter has a hard-on for King, so, regardless of the type of camp Pearson had, there was no roster spot.

And like I said, the same deal with Toffoli. Tell me this, let's say that TT had a great camp. Is he going to replace:

Williams? No.
Carter? No.
Lewis? No.

I don't understand all of you guys making a fuss about something that is so obvious, and that is that there were no spots on the team for Pearson or Toffoli, especially since these two don't have to clear waivers whereas the others do.

Seems pretty logical and obvious.

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11-08-2013, 03:12 PM
  #149
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Well, you just validated my argument about not having roster spots. Pearson wasn't going to beat out Brown, and as you say, Carcillo or Clifford as their different type of players. And we all know that Sutter has a hard-on for King, so, regardless of the type of camp Pearson had, there was no roster spot.

And like I said, the same deal with Toffoli. Tell me this, let's say that TT had a great camp. Is he going to replace:

Williams? No.
Carter? No.
Lewis? No.

I don't understand all of you guys making a fuss about something that is so obvious, and that is that there were no spots on the team for Pearson or Toffoli, especially since these two don't have to clear waivers whereas the others do.

Seems pretty logical and obvious.
Read what I said above. Colin 'I'm a good guy but don't do anything' Fraser. You slide guys down/around to make room.

Dropping Lewis to the 4th line to make room on the 3rd for Pearson isn't rocket science. Fraser is just a warm body holding that spot until one of the kids pushes him out. He's one more good game away by Toffoli from being Brad Richardson's clone in the press box.

If Pearson or Toffoli wowed the coaches enough, he'd have made the team out of camp over Fraser. The fact you guys honestly beleive that not one kid even remotely had a chance of making this team is silly. Go back and read the posts around here pre-camp and during camp. Most had Toffoli written in ink and Pearson labelled as a great chance. Just because they didn't make it doesn't mean they didn't have a chance in the first place, it means they didn't earn it in the eyes of the coaching staff.

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11-08-2013, 03:23 PM
  #150
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Well, you just validated my argument about not having roster spots. Pearson wasn't going to beat out Brown, and as you say, Carcillo or Clifford as their different type of players. And we all know that Sutter has a hard-on for King, so, regardless of the type of camp Pearson had, there was no roster spot.

And like I said, the same deal with Toffoli. Tell me this, let's say that TT had a great camp. Is he going to replace:

Williams? No.
Carter? No.
Lewis? No.

I don't understand all of you guys making a fuss about something that is so obvious, and that is that there were no spots on the team for Pearson or Toffoli, especially since these two don't have to clear waivers whereas the others do.

Seems pretty logical and obvious.
Also seems nonsensical. Sutter specifically said before the season that they needed more from the 3rd line and LW, yet we decided to go with arguably the worst collection of LWings in the NHL, and the 3rd line that continues to be a black hole. Lewis wasn't going to turn into a good offensive player, he is what he is, a very good defensive forward who can play on the PK, but is a 4th liner. Were we magically going to see an increase in goal scoring on LW icing the likes of King, Carcillo, and Clifford? If the answer is yes, I'd suggest the person giving the answer go get a CAT scan immediately. The point is, you make room for better offensive players if you are truly concerned about production from LW and the 3rd line. If you are going to continue to ice Stoll, Lewis, and LW of the night on the 3rd line, you can't ***** about them not producing offensively, because the writing is on the wall at this point. Those suggesting the likes of Pearson and Toffoli should have made the team after training camp did so trying to fix some of the obvious problems that the team we iced after camp had. I knew Pearson was always going down, not because he didn't deserve a spot, but because of favoritism and stubbornness

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