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Old
11-04-2013, 10:48 PM
  #51
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Bring back Maurice because he took the team to Cup finals

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11-05-2013, 01:00 AM
  #52
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Lot of good points in this thread. It's a multifaceted problem.

1) Eric Staal is the captain of this team but has played like an NHL Captain for only 40% of his tenure as one. When he's going, the team is going. We all know this, and he does too. He has been coasting around the ice, not backchecking, taking numerous stupid penalties, and he doesn't accept responsibility in his interviews (edit: and I'm so sick of watching him trying to walk across the blueline through 3 dmen, as if he has ever been able to stick-handle his way out of a wet paperbag - play your game man!) I don't see any passion or "anger" in his game except for the last few minutes of a game here and there when it is far too little and far too late. It's his modus operandi.

2) Peters. I hate to go here because it's an "easy" excuse. The kid is doing the best he can, but he just isn't an NHL goaltender except for 10% of the time. Confidence is arguably more important than skill in this game and with a 4-16-1 record or whatever it is, I think this team has absolutely no confidence in him, regardless of any kind things they have to say about him or his effort. It cannot be the only (or even the main) reason we're on a 5 game skid but I think it's a little naive to dismiss it because of a myriad of other reasons. We won't know for sure until Dobey/Cam are back for several games what affect this really had on the team - we shall see. I wager the offense picks up a little (but not from the Staal bros).

3) JR. Not Mo, not Lavi, not Mo again, not Muller - Jim Rutherford. We've been in the same pattern for many years now and even if it actually is the coaches' fault, then the man who has been hiring lousy coaches needs to be fired. But, I don't think it's Muller. There are only a few things that are the same today as they were 5 years ago. The building, the equipment guys, the consistent mediocrity, Eric, and JR.

It's not like Muller is trying to employ some off-the-wall system and I find it hard to believe he's already lost the team. JR isn't on the ice, but his players are, and his inability to identify and address personnel issues based on his experiences with the last 3 coaches' tenures makes me wonder: why the hell does he still have a job here? If Staal tunes out the coach after 100-140 games then the problem is Staal, not the coach. There's a pretty clear pattern. There are always other circumstances, but they vary - this one is pretty consistent IMO.

I said it before the lockout October last year - if we aren't back in the playoffs by April 2014, then JR needs to be fired. He doesn't get anymore time - he's been here twenty friggin' years and we haven't truly been a "budget" team for a few seasons now - we're at the cap and we are still trash. It's a trash heap JR engineered.

The old excuse was "we're a budget team,"... "we're injured,"... "we didn't eat our Wheaties®,"... What's the excuse now? The coach sucks... again? I think not. How about these? "We don't know how to draft"... "we don't know how to develop our picks"... "we hand out NTCs like a hooker giving away free herpes"... "we overpay for average talent"... "we give absurd 10-year contracts to players unproven in our franchise simply on the basis of his name"...

If we don't make playoffs this year AND next year, then JR is done. Period.

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11-05-2013, 07:57 AM
  #53
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This thread has delivered in more ways than I could have ever imagined. Let's see what sort of train wreck known as the Carolina Hurricanes shows up tonight.

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11-05-2013, 08:43 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevil58 View Post
This thread has delivered in more ways than I could have ever imagined. Let's see what sort of train wreck known as the Carolina Hurricanes shows up tonight.
You mean tonight against the Flyers, the 2nd worst EC team, a group that spends money in some sort of living fantasy hockey experiment which leads people to gripe about how we're not doing that?

The same Flyers team that got obliterated by the Caps on their home ice the other night, which saw Ray Emery skating to the other end to engage Holtby in a fight that was the textbook definition of embarrassing and gutless, fighting for no other reason than Emery happened to be playing for the team getting its nose rubbed in it like a bunch of U12 amateurs with an obvious lack of chemistry and because he's Ray Emery?

We're not great right now but I think we really need some perspective as to what the word "train wreck" really means in a larger context, at least as far as overall management, on ice conduct, and ROI for dollars spent.

We have two goalies to get healthy, and the return of Skinner. A couple of pretty key factors to a not exactly terrible but not exactly terrific start to the season before everything sort of went wrong at once.

The only real "train wreck" in Raleigh is probably getting ready for their morning skate right about now, just after arriving from their hotel breakfast.

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11-05-2013, 08:54 AM
  #55
Boom Boom Anton
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Even with all those comments about the Flyers, they still have the same number of wins as the Canes and roughly the same goal differential as the Canes.

I take Bluedevil's comment to refer to the on-ice product that the Canes have been putting forward lately. Not sure how to describe it other than Train Wreck. 4 wins on the season, can't score, -17 goal differential, 5 game losing streak (where they scored a total of 5 goals), beat by the a Rangers team who was scoring at an average of ~1.5goals / game) and the Canes give up 5.

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11-05-2013, 08:56 AM
  #56
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We can complain about Staal's slow starts all we want, but we don't know anything about him as a captain. Remember, this team struggled under Brind'amour as well.

2005-2006 - Cup
2006-2007 - 88 points
2007-2008 - Ten regulation losses in December, missed playoffs in last game
2008-2009 - ECF
2009-2010 - 14 game winless streak in October/November (Franchise record?)

Yeah they won the cup and went to another ECF, but they had some pretty dreadful years too. It's not like they've suddenly taken a nosedive under Staal.

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11-05-2013, 09:03 AM
  #57
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I haven't read anything or watched anything that would suggest that there will be some miraculous change being witnessed tonight. you read comments, you watch interviews, practise, faces, body language. it's all a fan can do. then speculate. no fire anywhere in sight. I don't expect any significant change. everyone looks defeated. all the coaching staff, the trainers, the players old and new. will be interesting to see what attendance is like and how fans react if they lose, especially by a large margin.

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11-05-2013, 09:27 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Even with all those comments about the Flyers, they still have the same number of wins as the Canes and roughly the same goal differential as the Canes.

I take Bluedevil's comment to refer to the on-ice product that the Canes have been putting forward lately. Not sure how to describe it other than Train Wreck. 4 wins on the season, can't score, -17 goal differential, 5 game losing streak (where they scored a total of 5 goals), beat by the a Rangers team who was scoring at an average of ~1.5goals / game) and the Canes give up 5.
The Hurricanes, to borrow your phrase, have a terrible on-ice product lately. To which I argue we had to lose personnel to injuries and therefore games to actually achieve Flyers status. There is absolutely no doubt that the Hurricanes are a horrible hockey team right now, and for a variety of reasons.

But I will also argue that I've yet to sit and watch a Canes goaltender punch a man who refuses to take off his glove and blocker in the back of the skull while he's on his knees against the boards, all because we're getting **** piled 7-0 and are having a lousy season.

At the end of the day, people will define "train wreck" differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky7 View Post
I haven't read anything or watched anything that would suggest that there will be some miraculous change being witnessed tonight. you read comments, you watch interviews, practise, faces, body language. it's all a fan can do. then speculate. no fire anywhere in sight. I don't expect any significant change. everyone looks defeated. all the coaching staff, the trainers, the players old and new. will be interesting to see what attendance is like and how fans react if they lose, especially by a large margin.
I know studying Eric Staal's face tells me that everything I hate about his leadership is 100% correct and that Kirk Muller, he of significant goalie injuries and terrible defensemen, is 100% to blame.

As for the part in bold, you've gotta be kidding me wondering about fan reaction. Half the people who regularly appear in the building are just there to swoon over the Skinner/Bowman/Lindholm facial features, and the rest of us have seen this Canes act before.

The remaining 75% of the building will be Flyers fans.

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11-05-2013, 09:55 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by PaulProteus View Post
The Hurricanes, to borrow your phrase, have a terrible on-ice product lately. To which I argue we had to lose personnel to injuries and therefore games to actually achieve Flyers status. There is absolutely no doubt that the Hurricanes are a horrible hockey team right now, and for a variety of reasons.

But I will also argue that I've yet to sit and watch a Canes goaltender punch a man who refuses to take off his glove and blocker in the back of the skull while he's on his knees against the boards, all because we're getting **** piled 7-0 and are having a lousy season.

At the end of the day, people will define "train wreck" differently.
Ok. I guess I don't see why you are bringing up Emery and the line brawl to argue a point that the Canes aren't a train-wreck right now. Maybe I shouldn't speak for Bluedevil, but I read his quote as what would happen on the ice. Specifically because he said "Let's see what sort of train wreck known as the Carolina Hurricanes shows up tonight."

Given how they played the last 5 games, I see no problems with what he wrote and it would likely have been written no matter who the opponent was so not sure why Emery punching another goalie is even relevant. To me, losing 5 straight, playing terribly, and scoring only 5 goals in those games is pretty much a train wreck (regardless of the reasons why). Maybe they'll right the ship, but until they do, I see no reason to sugar-coat it. Are the Flyers and their circus even more of a train wreck? Sure, but I couldn't care less and it doesn't take away from what the Canes currently are.

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11-05-2013, 11:03 AM
  #60
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But I will also argue that I've yet to sit and watch a Canes goaltender punch a man who refuses to take off his glove and blocker in the back of the skull while he's on his knees against the boards, all because we're getting **** piled 7-0 and are having a lousy season.
Yeah, because if they did something like that, it might actually make them pull together as a team.

Didn't Philly go right back out after than and win one?

There needs to be a good dust up to get everyone fired up to actually want to win.

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11-05-2013, 11:38 AM
  #61
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Justin Peters has lost 9 straight, and 15 of 16. On a team that has more wins than regulation losses when he's not in net.

You can't have the worst goaltender in the league and expect anything other than losing. Teams with average goaltending struggle in this league.

That this has happened 2 years in a row is depressing.

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11-05-2013, 11:46 AM
  #62
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Peters has kept this team in the game more times than not. It's our forwards that are the problem. They cannot score goals. Stop using Peters as a scape goat. This team is a complete and utter train wreck and injuries are no longer a valid excuse.

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11-05-2013, 11:48 AM
  #63
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Why does it have to be one problem? Why can't it be both?

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11-05-2013, 12:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by bluedevil58 View Post
Peters has kept this team in the game more times than not. It's our forwards that are the problem. They cannot score goals. Stop using Peters as a scape goat. This team is a complete and utter train wreck and injuries are no longer a valid excuse.
Has it ever crossed your mind that teams play differently in front of different goaltenders, for very specific reasons?

^What he said.


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11-05-2013, 12:36 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Ok. I guess I don't see why you are bringing up Emery and the line brawl to argue a point that the Canes aren't a train-wreck right now. Maybe I shouldn't speak for Bluedevil, but I read his quote as what would happen on the ice. Specifically because he said "Let's see what sort of train wreck known as the Carolina Hurricanes shows up tonight."

Given how they played the last 5 games, I see no problems with what he wrote and it would likely have been written no matter who the opponent was so not sure why Emery punching another goalie is even relevant. To me, losing 5 straight, playing terribly, and scoring only 5 goals in those games is pretty much a train wreck (regardless of the reasons why). Maybe they'll right the ship, but until they do, I see no reason to sugar-coat it. Are the Flyers and their circus even more of a train wreck? Sure, but I couldn't care less and it doesn't take away from what the Canes currently are.
I guess it's relevant -- and obviously to me alone -- because this Flyers team, with an almost limitless pile of cash and who started the season with a head coach who won a Stanley Cup for the Hurricanes, is where they're at.

Meanwhile the Hurricanes, a team that for the 2nd year in a row features their #1 and #2 goaltenders sitting in the press box on a nightly basis, is what it is: a "budget team" that features two Staals, Ryan Murphy, Jeff Skinner, and Alexander Semin.

We are not a good team right now. But how you and I define "train wreck" is simply different. I'll take our current situation to Philly's any day of the week, even knowing that Philly can basically spend their way out of their own self-created fiasco, and probably will. I'll also take JR over Holmgren right now, even after saying out loud last week that it's probably time for JR to think about pursing more golf during the work day hours.

Or, here's a thought experiment: look at Giroux. There are members on this board who would probably riot or commit seppuku in the parking lot of PNC if Eric Staal ever hurt himself swinging a golf club. Instead he took a cheap shot playing at the Worlds, rehabbed himself back to play for the season, yet this board talks at great length about his "leadership" and "heart" and all this other nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Booth23 View Post
Yeah, because if they did something like that, it might actually make them pull together as a team.

Didn't Philly go right back out after than and win one?

There needs to be a good dust up to get everyone fired up to actually want to win.
You honestly think a team like the Canes would benefit if Justin Peters beat up a goaltender who's minding his own business and shutting them out?

You think a team like the Canes would benefit if, during a line brawl, someone went after Gerbe, Lindholm, Murphy or Semin?

You think the oft-injured Tim Gleason, if he weren't wobbly as I sit here and type this, would suddenly rally the locker room if he got concussed while getting an ear drum blown, just like he did in the preseason in Montreal this year? While he was getting schooled by a younger, more eager hockey player fighting in an absolutely meaningless fight after a clean hit, all in the name of "pulling them together?"

Brilliant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallym View Post
Justin Peters has lost 9 straight, and 15 of 16. On a team that has more wins than regulation losses when he's not in net.

You can't have the worst goaltender in the league and expect anything other than losing. Teams with average goaltending struggle in this league.

That this has happened 2 years in a row is depressing.
Bingo. Yes. The two years in a row part. The average goaltending part, too.

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11-05-2013, 12:43 PM
  #66
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A superstar on a pretty good team having a sluggish start is bad. Canes probably could have been 6-2-1 if the top line was clicking instead of 4-2-3. Going from two good goaltenders to arguably the worst goaltender in the league is something else.

This "kept them in the game" talk is nonsense. He gives up highlight reel soft goals in tight checking games. The team does everything it can to shelter him, and he still lets in two garbage goals a game.

There is no path to victory with a goaltender of this quality in net.

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11-05-2013, 12:50 PM
  #67
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Ok, that's fine, we just look at it a different way. I don't need to compare the Canes to a team that is a circus to validate if I think they are a train wreck (obviously a subjective term). The Flyers are 100% irrelevant to me in this conversation. It's like a fat guy saying he isn't fat because that guy over there is even fatter.

And I'm not saying the Canes don't have good excuses (such as losing the goalies, Pitkanen and Skinner), but I'm just reflecting on the facts of the team right now:

- they can't score
- they don't defend well.
- they don't move the puck well and are terrible at puck possession.
- they have weak goaltending.
- they are near the bottom of the league in PP%
- the are in the bottom 3rd in the league in PK%
- they have lost 5 straight
- they have only won 4 games
- their star players aren't playing like star players.
- they have pretty much spent to the cap (not a budget team).

To me (again it's subjective), that's pretty much a train wreck. Now, if they get healthy (particularly in goal) and the stars decide to start playing, they can turn it around, but I'm just reflecting what I see right now.

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11-05-2013, 12:52 PM
  #68
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I don't know how people can see that we're averaging less than 2 goals per game (1.93, I believe) and still somehow blame goaltending.

People love to talk about how the team doesn't trust Peters and so they're overcompensating defensively and not scoring as a result. But what about the opposite?

If the team can't even score 2 goals a game, that means if a goaltender lets in 1 goal, the game's over.

You don't think that margin of error puts an insane amount of pressure on the goaltender?

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11-05-2013, 12:54 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Ok, that's fine, we just look at it a different way. I don't need to compare the Canes to a team that is a circus to validate if I think they are a train wreck (obviously a subjective term). The Flyers are 100% irrelevant to me in this conversation. It's like a fat guy saying he isn't fat because that guy over there is even fatter.

And I'm not saying the Canes don't have good excuses (such as losing the goalies, Pitkanen and Skinner), but I'm just reflecting on the facts of the team right now:

- they can't score
- they don't defend well.
- they don't move the puck well and are terrible at puck possession.
- they have weak goaltending.
- they are near the bottom of the league in PP%
- the are in the bottom 3rd in the league in PK%
- they have lost 5 straight
- they have only won 4 games
- their star players aren't playing like star players.
- they have pretty much spent to the cap (not a budget team).

To me (again it's subjective), that's pretty much a train wreck. Now, if they get healthy and the stars decide to start playing, they can turn it around, but I'm just reflecting what I see right now.
And you and I agree on every single one of those points, Boom Boom. The third one, the puck movement and possession, makes me want throw myself off the catwalk every single time I sit and watch it in person.

But again, to be subjective, I'll still take our mess over their mess.

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11-05-2013, 01:05 PM
  #70
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And you and I agree on every single one of those points, Boom Boom. The third one, the puck movement and possession, makes me want throw myself off the catwalk every single time I sit and watch it in person.

But again, to be subjective, I'll still take our mess over their mess.
Yep. Understand.

I realize Peters is a terrible goalie, but for once, I'd like to see this team overcome some adversity.

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11-05-2013, 01:10 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Yep. Understand.

I realize Peters is a terrible goalie, but for once, I'd like to see this team overcome some adversity.
I'd like to see Peters become a goalie who is not terrible. Every season when he's up here I want to see something.

I've always rooted for the guy. I like him.

And the "Our D is bad because our goaltender sucks," or "Our forwards are bad because our D sucks," and any combination you want to rearrange those with F, D, or goalies/Cam Ward is just getting so old to have to think about as a Canes fan that I can't hardly stand it any more.

Dan Ellis should be starting! /points pistol at own head

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11-05-2013, 01:32 PM
  #72
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Yep. Understand.

I realize Peters is a terrible goalie, but for once, I'd like to see this team overcome some adversity.
This is the other catch. The team's 3 previous games before Peters:

Down 2-0 to Stanley Cup champs in the 3rd period. Score 2, force overtime, and lose in shootout.

Down 2-0 to Mapleleafs in Toronto in 3rd(?). Score 3 goals to win it in regulation.

Travel to NYI in battle for 2nd in division. Put up 4 goals, and hold on for win.

They showed heart. They didn't give up. They got big goals when they needed them. They overcame adversity. That's what they did immediately before Peters took over.

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11-05-2013, 01:36 PM
  #73
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So just to toss a hypothetical out there. The Pens fans are forever moaning and groaning over Bylsma and there seems to be a pretty heavy contingent on the Pens board that would like to see Shero give Disco his walking papers. Who would you rather have as coach should Bylsma come up on the market - Bylsma or Muller?

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11-05-2013, 01:42 PM
  #74
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So just to toss a hypothetical out there. The Pens fans are forever moaning and groaning over Bylsma and there seems to be a pretty heavy contingent on the Pens board that would like to see Shero give Disco his walking papers. Who would you rather have as coach should Bylsma come up on the market - Bylsma or Muller?
That's a tough question. Both are basically unknown quantities still. Blysma wins with a team anyone can win with. Muller is losing with a team everybody would lose with.

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11-05-2013, 04:08 PM
  #75
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They showed heart. They didn't give up. They got big goals when they needed them. They overcame adversity. That's what they did immediately before Peters took over.
I'm not talking about overcoming a bad start in a game or two or holding on for a win. That's not adversity, that's a reality in pro sports (especially when you have a middle of the road team). If you can't do that, then you wont' have any success. I'm talking about the things that affect the team long term and how the stars rarely step up.

Peters sucks, I get that, and the team will struggle to get wins with him in the net, but can you honestly can say that the last couple of games the guys have really put it out there and worked their tail off to try and overcome that? Or do we pay our top players exorbitant amounts to only perform when things are going well?

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