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Round 2, Vote 2 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
11-09-2013, 03:20 PM
  #326
the edler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
How much of Cyclone Taylor only winning one Cup can be held against him?
I don't know. It shouldn't count much against him if up against Lalonde at least because Lalonde also only won one Cup, and barely squeezed that one victory out of the Portland Rosebuds, while him and the Canadiens were highly outscored in two finals against the Metropolitans.

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11-09-2013, 03:22 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
How much of Cyclone Taylor only winning one Cup can be held against him? The Finals in those years are difficult to judge because of the differences between the two leagues.
If it's used as the reason to place him behind Nighbor- and likely thus excluding him from the top-10... while the Community gives a bye to Mikita, and places him in the upper half-dozen, then I call Selective Application.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I don't see [expansion] making a difference. Raw numbers go up, but they do for everybody. The placements of the players are constant either way.

Adding additional teams did dilute the league overall, but it doesn't lessen the impact of the top players in relation to the other top players of the same season. Nobody had an unfair advantage.
As long as your comparisons are drawn within the era, you're absolutely correct. But for this project, we absolutely have to make comparisons across eras. And that's when failing to adjust numbers for context risks moving one's analyses to The Land Under Milk Wood.

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11-09-2013, 04:10 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
If it's used as the reason to place him behind Nighbor- and likely thus excluding him from the top-10... while the Community gives a bye to Mikita, and places him in the upper half-dozen, then I call Selective Application.
There is much more information available from Mikita's era. Full games on video, accounts of people who watched him play, and detailed statistics. Details from Nighbor's area are a bit murkier and information like the number of Stanley Cups won stands out more in relation.

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11-09-2013, 04:21 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Personally I feel a dirty play is a dirty play, whether the victim is a star like Kharlamov or a journeyman like Babe or King doesn't make it any worse or better.

How would I feel if he did it to Bobby Orr? The same way I feel about the Kharlamov incident. A dirty play that deserves criticism, but not something that invalidates his entire career. And I certainly wouldn't be citing it as evidence that he wasn't a great defensive player.

Look, there's nothing either of us will say to change each other's minds. The only relevance to this thread about it is whether the incident should lower Clarke's rating. I don't think it should.
I disagree. A dirty play can be many different things. Is it in the heat of the moment or premeditated? Is the intention to anger or to injure? Is it common in the culture or extraordinary? Is it a new thing for the player or committed by a repeat offender? Who is the target? A player who "had it coming" or a star injured because he's too good for you.

Come to think of it, the justice systems of most of the worlds nations would also disagree with you.

And I have not in any way used this "as evidence that he wasn't a great defensive player." nor do I think it "invalidates his entire career." I think it leaves a stain on it big enough to be taken into account when comparing him to players who did not disgrace themselves by scoring full marks on the wrong side on all of the above mentioned factors.

And I have to take yor word for it that you would judge him the same if it was Bobby Orr but I doubt Hockey Canada would be as kind.

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11-09-2013, 05:19 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
[COLOR="DarkRed"]If it's used as the reason to place him behind Nighbor- and likely thus excluding him from the top-10... while the Community gives a bye to Mikita, and places him in the upper half-dozen, then I call Selective Application.
Once again, keep in mind that star players played up to the full 60 minutes in Nighbor and Taylor's time, giving the superstar players much more individual control over their teams' fortunes.

I think it says something that Nighbor was considered the clearcut best player of the best team of the era, and that the team was completely lost when he missed most of the season in 1917-18 because of WW1.


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Old
11-09-2013, 05:48 PM
  #331
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Eastern Final

Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
How much of Cyclone Taylor only winning one Cup can be held against him? The Finals in those years are difficult to judge because of the differences between the two leagues.

Take 1918 for example. A five-game series, all played in Toronto. Vancouver wins the two PCHA-rules games, but loses the three NHL-rules games. It seems that bad luck of it being the NHL's turn that year may have been the deciding factor. Taylor scored 5 of Vancouvers 7 goals in the NHL-rules games. How much more could have been expected from him?
Fact remains that the west never won when the final was held in the east but the east did win when the final was held in the west. Host held the extra game rule advantage. This suggests that the east was stronger. Taylor's regular season performance should be viewed accordingly.

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Old
11-09-2013, 05:51 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was Clarke, like Esposito, a guy who really needed the right kind of teammates to be at his most effective?
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Hmm. Perhaps.
I'll admit to finding this perspective interesting- because (and forgive me if I'm perhaps overly caricaturing the contrary position) one more frequently encounters the perception that you had Superstar Clarke and Brick Wall Parent carrying a Passel of Pugs onward and upward by the sheer force of their greatness. Nice to see it suggested that the relationship may have been more symbiotic than is commonly believed.

Yeah- one can credit Clarke for his courage, sure... but his is the courage of the Little Brother who always had four Big Brothers within 30 yards of wherever he was. One more thing of interest...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Hart Trophy Top 10 finishes
Clarke: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 6, 6, 8, 10, 10
Esposito: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 6
Trottier: 1, 2, 2, 3, 5
I think this calls for some context. Trottier ran into an obstacle in his quest for multiple MVPs... young Gretzky. I'll daresay that if a 23 year-old Clarke crossed paths with a 19-year-old Gretzky, he wouldn't have ANY Hart trophies.

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Old
11-09-2013, 05:54 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Fact remains that the west never won when the final was held in the east but the east did win when the final was held in the west. Host held the extra game rule advantage. This suggests that the east was stronger. Taylor's regular season performance should be viewed accordingly.
They alternated venues - I believe the finals were in the west in the odd numbered years and in the east in the even numbered years. And as you said, the home team got to play their rules for one extra game per series.

Anyway, it's really not an East vs West thing that I see. It's that Ottawa (Nighbor's team) was in the East. Only twice did the road team win the Stanley Cup during the NHA/NHL vs. PCHA/WCHL/WHL champions (1915–1926) era. And both times, it was Ottawa (in 1921 and 1923).


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Old
11-09-2013, 05:59 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
I'll daresay that if a 23 year-old Clarke crossed paths with a 19-year-old Gretzky, he wouldn't have ANY Hart trophies.
Hmm, Trottier likely wins the 1982 Hart Trophy without Gretzky. Without Gretzky, he also is a 4 Time 1st Team AS to go along with 1 2nd Team.

Here's Trottier's Hart record without Gretzky: 1, 1, 2, 2, 4

I dunno, is it fair to "remove" Gretzky and not Orr?

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Old
11-09-2013, 06:23 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I dunno, is it fair to "remove" Gretzky and not Orr?
Valid question. However, my purpose of my illustration was not so much to hypothetically remove Gretzky from Trottier's context-- it was to hypothetically add Gretzky to Clarke's context. Wherein (I'll say again) he figures to pitch a shutout v. Clarke, if so juxtaposed. [At least Trottier didn't get shut out.]

However, Orr's role in this merits a look-see. Orr was done winning Hart Trophies at age 23... which (knowing what we know of Orr now) just seems freaking silly. Still- that's how The Fourth Estate voted- so that's what they've left for us to assess.

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Old
11-09-2013, 06:31 PM
  #336
Canadiens1958
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Baby Boom

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Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
I just hope that the rigorous analysis of this tree doesn't result in the overlooking of the larger and more significant forest. At the dawn of Mikita's and Esposito's careers, there were six teams. By the time they hung 'em up, there were eighteen. [And an Upstart League to draw away more stars.] I mean, Holy Thinning Soup, Batman! That's utterly without precedent in Pro Sports! Imagine if Babe Ruth ended his career in a 24-team American League[!?] [And there was a resurgent Federal League to sign more players, also?]

I think that underestimating the impact of such a development is a much greater danger than overestimating it.
The reality of the post WWII baby boom contradicts your hypothesis. In the province of Quebec for educational purposes the post WWII baby boom is viewed as covering 1951-1971. Reason is that WWII ended in 1945, 5-6 years before the youngster starts school puts the educational impact to 1951. The primary and secondary school registration numbers Bell Curved from 1951 - 1971 highest 1960. 1971 the registration had dipped to below 1951 levels.

This is reflected throughout Canada. By 1967 Canada had started to produce great young hockey players - Bobby Orr and many other, 1970 and 1971, Quebec alone produced Gilbert Perreault, Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne. So the player supply was more than sufficient for NHL expansion and the WHA. That there were weak teams is part of the nature of hockey. O6 had seasons with weak teams.

The view that expansion and the WHA weakened the NHL and made scoring easier might have legs if after the 1979 consolidation down to 21 NHL teams had reduced scoring.The opposite happened. 1978-79 NHL with the WHA still active, TG/G was 7.00 yet starting in 1979-80 with the weakest talent eliminated by consolidation scoring increased over the next three seasons with TG/G of 7.03, 7.69, 8.03.

Esposito, Mikita and others that stradled the 1967 expansion have been credited properly for their performance without impact from expansion. Mikita alone saw two expansion independent explanations of his performance provided. Hawks going to four lines and estimated TOI.

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Old
11-09-2013, 06:50 PM
  #337
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I'll cop to not having cracked open my Demography textbooks for a while... but I don't think the Anglo-American population expanded to the point of being able to triple the quantity and quality of the talent-pool inside of an eight-year span.

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11-09-2013, 07:56 PM
  #338
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Data

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Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
I'll cop to not having cracked open my Demography textbooks for a while... but I don't think the Anglo-American population expanded to the point of being able to triple the quantity and quality of the talent-pool inside of an eight-year span.
Less than a minute on Google shows that the Canadian population from the twenties onwards grew enough to more than sustain the growth:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo62a-eng.htm

Note 1931 the NHL was a 10 team league not 6. 1981 the NHL was a 21 team keague. More to the point is that the 1967 expansion saw an increase to 12 from 6 NHL teams. Looks like double but only 20% over the number of 1931 teams yet the Canadian population had increased by well over 20%. Even if the difference in roster size is considered the talent pool and the production of talent during the baby boom was more than sufficient. Even before considering the positive impact of a rapidly growing infra structure(building indoor hockey arenas) during the depression and post WWII on the talent pool the numbers hold.

Your 1967 expansion theory re Esposito and Mikita has no foundation.

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Old
11-09-2013, 08:51 PM
  #339
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At this point, I guess the most diplomatic thing for me to say is- how does your belief in the tripling of the talent-pool in the relevant span affect your assessment of the players active in the early-70s?

You do have some conclusions concerning the ordinal ranking of the players under discussion, don't you?!

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Old
11-09-2013, 09:02 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Well, yes? Or what do you mean? You have to view it in a broader context. The Kharlamov incident wasn't the only thing Clarke did. He was notorious for the stuff. For example, Bure's elbow on Churla is one of the dirtiest ever, but Bure didn't build a large portion of his game on being dirty. Clarke and Messier did.
Personally, while I find parts of Clarke's and Moose's game distasteful and love Mikita for being effective while transforming his game, it has little if any merit to the greatness or lack of anyone's career.

Intimidation is part of the NHL landscape like it or not.

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11-09-2013, 09:18 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Less than a minute on Google shows that the Canadian population from the twenties onwards grew enough to more than sustain the growth:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo62a-eng.htm

Note 1931 the NHL was a 10 team league not 6. 1981 the NHL was a 21 team keague. More to the point is that the 1967 expansion saw an increase to 12 from 6 NHL teams. Looks like double but only 20% over the number of 1931 teams yet the Canadian population had increased by well over 20%. Even if the difference in roster size is considered the talent pool and the production of talent during the baby boom was more than sufficient. Even before considering the positive impact of a rapidly growing infra structure(building indoor hockey arenas) during the depression and post WWII on the talent pool the numbers hold.

Your 1967 expansion theory re Esposito and Mikita has no foundation.
This is mostly off-topic by now, but if you're going to look at the potential talent pool from Canada, you need to look at men aged 18-40, who are native-born, not the overall population, which increased largely due to immigration and people living longer.

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11-09-2013, 09:49 PM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is mostly off-topic by now, but if you're going to look at the potential talent pool from Canada, you need to look at men aged 18-40, who are native-born, not the overall population, which increased largely due to immigration and people living longer.
This, too, is off-topic... but I've appreciated your sensible contributions here, and am not too proud to say that I've gained a healthier perspective on the topic, owing to your contributions and those of other posters addressing the evaluation of specific players under discussion.

I thought of a couple of different lenses through which to view the players- which owes something to Bill James' player-rankings in baseball: Career Value, Five Year-Peak/Prime, and Playoff Performance. Might be useful in collating our sorts.

To address something you brought up earlier, the Sakic/Clarke contrast shows Sakic to good effect, I think. Like another contributor or two, the more I look, the less I see when it comes to Clarke.

I've also relented on Nighbor. I'd like to see him in the top-10. Top-8... I don't know. I've also shuffled Mikita ahead of Clarke... not because I've made a Damascene conversion on Mikita- it's that I've pushed Clarke back a bit. [And it doesn't have anything to do with his playing-style--- although I won't begrudge those who'd make negative adjustments for that...]

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11-09-2013, 09:54 PM
  #343
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Interesting.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is mostly off-topic by now, but if you're going to look at the potential talent pool from Canada, you need to look at men aged 18-40, who are native-born, not the overall population, which increased largely due to immigration and people living longer.
Actually it is very on topic as Esposito and Mikita fit the category you are trying to exclude in the bolded.

Suggest exploring Italian immigration to Canada.Two Esposito brothers would be from the first generation born on Canadian soil.

Stan Mikita like other NHLers, O6 and earlier were child immigrants. A group that includes Johnny Gottselig, Charlie Gardiner, Bill Gadsby amongst others.

If you combine the immigrants and first generation players you would be looking at app 20-25% of the late O6 players - the Ukrainians, Germans and Scandinavians(Backstrom, etc), Italians, other Europeans - Mahovlich brothers etc, that arrived in Canada between the world wars.

As stated previously the expansion argument despite efforts to give it credibility is not supportable. Everything attributable to expansion is easily explainable by simple hockey factors.

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Old
11-09-2013, 09:59 PM
  #344
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Voting

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Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
At this point, I guess the most diplomatic thing for me to say is- how does your belief in the tripling of the talent-pool in the relevant span affect your assessment of the players active in the early-70s?

You do have some conclusions concerning the ordinal ranking of the players under discussion, don't you?!
Voting in this project is a private matter that is disclosed after the project. No benefit to the process revealing ratings prematurely.

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Old
11-09-2013, 10:28 PM
  #345
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Quote:
Hart Trophy Top 10 finishes
Clarke: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 6, 6, 8, 10, 10
Esposito: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 6
Trottier: 1, 2, 2, 3, 5
Trottier clearly has less longevity in the MVP dep't than the others do and Esposito has a slight advantage in peak: Esposito was five times a Hart finalist, a very public fact that's announced prior to awards ceremonies (not a stat count by the few later). And Espo has more top-5 finishes. Clarke of course has more longevity in terms of consideration, which is not surprising as he didn't have an Orr or Potvin to cloud the issue of the most valuable to one's team consideration. Hence, I don't find the Hart finishes significant in terms of relative worth ranking of the three.

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11-09-2013, 10:59 PM
  #346
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Just voted.

It's 2pm Sunday afternoon here in East Asia where this Canuck works.

There were only two locks for induction this round imo, and all the discussion changed my mind on three guys. We are to rank the top eight (of the ten) only and it was sad that I had to leave one of my favs, a guy I respect so much, off the list entirely this round.

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Old
11-09-2013, 11:21 PM
  #347
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Check out this gem that I found in the THN 1977 yearbook. It is a little statistical, rigid and based on the work of one person, but it's a glimpse into how these players were perceived as of summer 1976:


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11-09-2013, 11:35 PM
  #348
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both were four year veterans when these scouting reports were written.

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11-09-2013, 11:39 PM
  #349
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Mikita and Trottier were rated most "clutch" in 1976 by that guy, surprising for Trotts as the dynasty years hadn't arrived yet.

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11-09-2013, 11:40 PM
  #350
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Quote:
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Mikita and Trottier were rated most "clutch" in 1976 by that guy, surprising for Trotts as the dynasty years hadn't arrived yet.
Mikita had almost the highest score in defense, Esposito almost the lowest.

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