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Round 2, Vote 2 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
11-10-2013, 12:43 AM
  #351
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Check out this gem that I found in the THN 1977 yearbook. It is a little statistical, rigid and based on the work of one person, but it's a glimpse into how these players were perceived as of summer 1976:

A couple of thoughts:
  • This makes Mikita look very good, that late in his career.
  • Esposito's standing sure dropped like a rock after leaving Boston.
  • Pete Mahovlich tied for the second best overall center in the league? Does the Mahovlich ranking cast doubt on the credibility of the entire scouting report?

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11-10-2013, 01:08 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post




both were four year veterans when these scouting reports were written.
These would be a lot more useful without the black redactions.

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11-10-2013, 01:53 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
These would be a lot more useful without the black redactions.
I thought the point was to make it so I didn't give away who they were about.

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11-10-2013, 02:20 AM
  #354
Hawkey Town 18
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Voting is now open and will close on Tuesday the 12th at 11pm EST. Please PM me your votes for only the top 8 centers with numbers next to each name (i.e. 1. Wayne Gretzky). You will receive confirmation that your vote has been received within 24hrs. If you do not receive confirmation please re-send votes and let me know.

Thanks,
HT18

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Old
11-10-2013, 03:39 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Fact remains that the west never won when the final was held in the east but the east did win when the final was held in the west. Host held the extra game rule advantage. This suggests that the east was stronger. Taylor's regular season performance should be viewed accordingly.
I don't know about that. The Canadiens played teams from the west 4 times in the finals and barely squeezed one victory out of it. In two finals against the Metropolitans, Cyclone's chief rivals in the PCHA, Montreal got outscored 42-21. In the cancelled and tied influenza series in 1919, when the Mets outsored the Habs 19-10 despite playing three of five games under NHA rules, I've read Lalonde say himself that Seattle was the better team. And that's with one of their top players, who dominated the 1917 series, not even playing.

The Aristocrats also won against the Bulldogs already in 1913, two game to one, but I haven't read up on location and rules. I think generally though, the landscape early on was pretty even.

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11-10-2013, 07:08 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
A couple of thoughts:
  • This makes Mikita look very good, that late in his career.
  • Esposito's standing sure dropped like a rock after leaving Boston.
  • Pete Mahovlich tied for the second best overall center in the league? Does the Mahovlich ranking cast doubt on the credibility of the entire scouting report?
I don't see why it would. He was coming off two seasons of 100-plus points, finishing 5th and 6th in scoring, and 5th and 3rd in All Star voting, with Clarke and Perreault the only two finishing ahead of him in both years. A lot of rankings of Claude Giroux in the summer of last year might be seen in a similar way in the future.

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11-10-2013, 07:17 AM
  #357
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1924

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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
I don't know about that. The Canadiens played teams from the west 4 times in the finals and barely squeezed one victory out of it. In two finals against the Metropolitans, Cyclone's chief rivals in the PCHA, Montreal got outscored 42-21. In the cancelled and tied influenza series in 1919, when the Mets outsored the Habs 19-10 despite playing three of five games under NHA rules, I've read Lalonde say himself that Seattle was the better team. And that's with one of their top players, who dominated the 1917 series, not even playing.

The Aristocrats also won against the Bulldogs already in 1913, two game to one, but I haven't read up on location and rules. I think generally though, the landscape early on was pretty even.
Overlooking 1924 when the Canadiens beat Calgary two straight, outscoring them 9 - 1. Also Seattle was mainly the great Toronto time imported from the east so the west on a league basis could not handle what was basically an eastern team. Canadiens had problems with the Toronto team in the east so.....

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11-10-2013, 08:32 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
A couple of thoughts:
  • This makes Mikita look very good, that late in his career.
  • Esposito's standing sure dropped like a rock after leaving Boston.
  • Pete Mahovlich tied for the second best overall center in the league? Does the Mahovlich ranking cast doubt on the credibility of the entire scouting report?
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Mikita and Trottier were rated most "clutch" in 1976 by that guy, surprising for Trotts as the dynasty years hadn't arrived yet.
Trottier does pretty well for a guy with one season under his belt!

But yeah, we're all going to find things that look odd in subjective ratings like this just like any other one.

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11-10-2013, 09:55 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Trottier does pretty well for a guy with one season under his belt!

But yeah, we're all going to find things that look odd in subjective ratings like this just like any other one.
The rankings appear to have had a significant statistical component - they weren't purely subjective. See the bottom of the page for factors each category was based on. Most factors named were statistical.

Pete Mahovlich was essentially tied for second in the league among centres in point shares in the previous season, behind Clarke and next to Perreault. He definitely had a good statistical profile.

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11-10-2013, 09:57 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by VanIslander
I hope one of the inductees this round is not an NHLer, for the history of hockey's sake. (Yeah, the top-20 contenders will probably all be Canadians, but as a Canuck myself I don't give a flyin' fig about that, and if anything, I think we're a bit myopic if we end up with the twenty best centers ever being from Canada - surely one or two others are contenders? Then again... maybe not).
One would think. As if Canadian centers always steamrolled over the opposition every time they faced each other...

And I certainly hope Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic end up over Clarke and Mikita. Unless consistent lack of sportsmanship and lack of winning don't count for anything.

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11-10-2013, 10:06 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
One would think. As if Canadian centers always steamrolled over the opposition every time they faced each other...

And I certainly hope Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic end up over Clarke and Mikita. Unless consistent lack of sportsmanship and lack of winning don't count for anything.
Mikita seems like a cold hard lock for 5th (overall behind Morenz) at this point.

I really don't see any arguments for knocking him anywhere below that considering he's a 2 time hart winner, 4 time art ross winner, and 6 time first team all star center, and noted for his solid two way play.


Also, what are people's opinion of Yzerman's placing in this set of players? I haven't heard much about him at all, just a lot of talk about Sakic.

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11-10-2013, 10:14 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
Mikita seems like a cold hard lock for 5th (overall behind Morenz) at this point.

I really don't see any arguments for knocking him anywhere below that considering he's a 2 time hart winner, 4 time art ross winner, and 6 time first team all star center, and noted for his solid two way play.
The argument would be that it wasn't uncommon for Mikita to get outplayed head to head in the playoffs by his opposing center, while Messier and Nighbor in particular seem to have outplayed their opposing center almost every time.

Not saying that's a conclusive argument, but it's there.

Quote:
Also, what are people's opinion of Yzerman's placing in this set of players? I haven't heard much about him at all, just a lot of talk about Sakic.
Generally, if you don't hear a lot about a player, it means he's probably near the bottom. I think Yzerman and Lalonde are great players, definite top 20 centers, but I have them as the "not top 8" guys this round.

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11-10-2013, 10:29 AM
  #363
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post




both were four year veterans when these scouting reports were written.
Sakic and Yzerman?

Tough to say which is which, though! I'm going to say top is Stevie Y, bottom is Sakic.

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11-10-2013, 10:29 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
How much of Cyclone Taylor only winning one Cup can be held against him?
He won a Cup with Ottawa too in 1909. But I guess he played Cover Point on that team.

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11-10-2013, 10:46 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Generally, if you don't hear a lot about a player, it means he's probably near the bottom. I think Yzerman and Lalonde are great players, definite top 20 centers, but I have them as the "not top 8" guys this round.
Agreed. Lalonde is looking more and more like the last guy in this list.

I'm more or less convinced on my list, except for Cyclone Taylor. The information is much less available than any other time.

We don't have all-star teams, no scoring leaders in 14-15 or 15-16, and so many of the news articles feel biased. With Taylor being the biggest PCHA star it seems like Western newspapers were gushing over him because he was their star. It's hard to look at them objectively.

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11-10-2013, 10:57 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Sakic and Yzerman?

Tough to say which is which, though! I'm going to say top is Stevie Y, bottom is Sakic.
wasn't yzerman noted for his excelletn skating early in his career?

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11-10-2013, 11:04 AM
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
And I certainly hope Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic end up over Clarke and Mikita. Unless consistent lack of sportsmanship and lack of winning don't count for anything.
I'd put in my application for your Shadow-Cabinet anytime. I don't always agree with you (and in fact, I don't 100% agree with what I just quoted from you), but your heart is in the right place.

Mikita... unlike Clarke, (who shrinks before my eyes the more I study him- quite independent of his sportsmanship or lack thereof) I do see positives the more I look at him. Using the earlier-cited Tripartite method of "Career," "5-Year-Prime" and "Playoff Performance," Mikita has great career-value, even accounting for the multiple tailwinds involved with extending his career. 5-year prime? Well hell, he won 4 Art Rosses in a 5-year span. He gets a podium-finish there, too. Playoff Peformance? In this group, I'd rank 'im last. Butt-naked last. Except for an annus mirabilis run in 61-62 (which is so anomalous to his other campaigns that it could well fit into the "fluke" column) his playoffs, compared to most of the others- are pedestrian (and that's probably an understatement). It's a horrible thing in which to be last. And it affects how I view him.

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11-10-2013, 11:05 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
I'd put in my application for your Shadow-Cabinet anytime. I don't always agree with you (and in fact, I don't 100% agree with what I just quoted from you), but your heart is in the right place.

Mikita... unlike Clarke, (who shrinks before my eyes the more I study him- quite independent of his sportsmanship or lack thereof) I do see positives the more I look at him. Using the earlier-cited Tripartite method of "Career," "5-Year-Prime" and "Playoff Performance," Mikita has great career-value, even accounting for the multiple tailwinds involved with extending his career. 5-year prime? Well hell, he won 4 Art Rosses in a 5-year span. He gets a podium-finish there, too. Playoff Peformance? In this group, I'd rank 'im last. Butt-naked last. Except for an annus mirabilis run in 61-62 (which is so anomalous to his other campaigns that it could well fit into the "fluke" column) his playoffs, compared to most of the others- are pedestrian (and that's probably an understatement). It's a horrible thing in which to be last. And it affects how I view him.
Why do you rank Mikita below Lalonde, Taylor, or Esposito as a playoff performer?

I do agree that this forum tends to give star players from underachieving pre-expansion teams too much of a pass, but this is no Dionne we are talking about.

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11-10-2013, 11:15 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
One would think. As if Canadian centers always steamrolled over the opposition every time they faced each other...
IIRC, do you not personally rank Fedorov as a top ten center all-time?

Perhaps you should make the case for that at some point instead of just complaining that Russians get underrated?

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11-10-2013, 11:27 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by florida pwnthers View Post
wasn't yzerman noted for his excelletn skating early in his career?
You know what, you're right. I probably got them reversed.

I was basing it on the second one where it says the player is probably 'only' a 30-40 goal-scorer. My memory of Sakic's early days was that he was a real pass-first player but now I look at the stats and see that he had 48 in his third season. So it wouldn't make sense to say he was a only 30-40 goal guy if you were writing this after his fourth year.

Funny. In my mind, Yzerman was more of a natural goal-scorer right off the bat than Sakic but the stats don't bear that out. Perhaps its because Joe's shot started to look SO good around 1996 that I started underrating his earlier goal-scoring creds.

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11-10-2013, 11:34 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The argument would be that it wasn't uncommon for Mikita to get outplayed head to head in the playoffs by his opposing center, while Messier and Nighbor in particular seem to have outplayed their opposing center almost every time.

Not saying that's a conclusive argument, but it's there.



Generally, if you don't hear a lot about a player, it means he's probably near the bottom. I think Yzerman and Lalonde are great players, definite top 20 centers, but I have them as the "not top 8" guys this round.
For the record, Yzerman, Lalonde and Taylor are in 8 to 10 range. Not necessarily in that order.

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11-10-2013, 11:38 AM
  #372
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
A couple of thoughts:
  • This makes Mikita look very good, that late in his career.
  • Esposito's standing sure dropped like a rock after leaving Boston.
  • Pete Mahovlich tied for the second best overall center in the league? Does the Mahovlich ranking cast doubt on the credibility of the entire scouting report?
Lemaire with a clutch rating below Pierre Larouche, Chuck Lefley, Wayne Merrick, Curt Bennett, and Claude St. Sauveur? Yeah, I'd say the credibility of THN's report can be called into question.

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11-10-2013, 12:05 PM
  #373
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Lemaire with a clutch rating below Pierre Larouche, Chuck Lefley, Wayne Merrick, Curt Bennett, and Claude St. Sauveur? Yeah, I'd say the credibility of THN's report can be called into question.
From the bottom of that page"

"CLUTCH RATING - Important Goals & Assists-Power Play Appearances"

Lemaire, Larouche, Lefley, Merrick, Bennett, and St. Saveur were all on the ice for a similar number of power play goals. And Lemaire probably scored too many of his points when the game was out of reach to rank high in "Important Goals & Assists", as a player on an elite team as opposed to an average team.

All of which says that the clutch rating may be internally consistent but wasn't measuring anything meaningful.

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11-10-2013, 12:31 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
IIRC, do you not personally rank Fedorov as a top ten center all-time?

Perhaps you should make the case for that at some point instead of just complaining that Russians get underrated?
And wait until he actually becomes available as a candidate, please.

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11-10-2013, 12:48 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by florida pwnthers View Post
wasn't yzerman noted for his excelletn skating early in his career?
Yes, before his knee injuries he was very quick and had a bunch of gears.

I like to say he was like a waterbug he could cut and weave with the puck so well.

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