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Hypothetical: the Devils win the draft lottery

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Old
11-05-2013, 09:10 PM
  #1
Riggins
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Hypothetical: the Devils win the draft lottery

What's Bill Daly going to do during the draft lottery, bust out a card with a picture of the NHL logo on it? Or one with the Devils logo and explain that they will forfeit the selection?

This thread isn't intended to mock New Jersey fans. It's just going to be very interesting how this all plays out.

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11-05-2013, 09:11 PM
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Kid Dynamite
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Why would they even put a lottery ball in for them in the first place?

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11-05-2013, 09:15 PM
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Wizeman*
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New Jersey will have a ball in the lottery. They have to in order to pick in the 2nd round and so forth. Their logo will be on it but in the unfortunate case where they win the lottery ,their pick is forfeited so the second team picks first and so forth and new jersey joins in order in the second round.

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11-05-2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Dynamite View Post
Why would they even put a lottery ball in for them in the first place?
I guess it depends on how exactly the lottery is done. If it's a big bin of tumbling balls or some elaborate formula run on a computer.

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11-05-2013, 09:19 PM
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mapes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absent Canuck View Post
New Jersey will have a ball in the lottery. They have to in order to pick in the 2nd round and so forth. Their logo will be on it but in the unfortunate case where they win the lottery ,their pick is forfeited so the second team picks first and so forth and new jersey joins in order in the second round.
The lottery only effects the first round, I believe. So there isn't a point to put NJ in it.

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11-05-2013, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absent Canuck View Post
New Jersey will have a ball in the lottery. They have to in order to pick in the 2nd round and so forth. Their logo will be on it but in the unfortunate case where they win the lottery ,their pick is forfeited so the second team picks first and so forth and new jersey joins in order in the second round.
No they won't. The lottery doesn't impact the overall draft order - just who picks first (and the winner will pump the teams between #1 and the winner's original draft spot down a place in the first round).

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11-05-2013, 09:41 PM
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Wizeman*
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I was under the assumption that the draft order was set in stone due to the lottery. I didnt know it reverted back to order of finish . Thanks

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11-05-2013, 09:44 PM
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Never really thought of this.

Well we all know that the NHL is never surprised by who wins the lottery right, they take those envelopes to the TSN Studios and clearly they made them so they know who has what... I think there's a good chance that if New Jersey wins the lottery and has that #1 pick, the NHL won't embarrass NJ & HOFer Lou by telling everyone that NJD is forfeiting the #1 pick. I'm going to assume since the pick is going to be forfeited no matter what they'll give the #1 pick to someone else and present it different to avoid having a fan base even more angry than they already will be if/when NJD is forfeiting a top 10 pick.

Just my theory anyway.


and I think you have to put them in the lottery because it would effect the odds of other teams. If you eliminate NJDs lottery balls, the odds for lower place teams get bigger.

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11-05-2013, 09:55 PM
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What if the Devils swap 1st round draft positions as part of a mid-season trade with a team willing to give up a late 1st and a prospect for that draft position. The trade docs specify that the teams are not swapping actual picks, just the draft order or their 1sts. NJD still forfeits its first, but due to the trade it is the lower of the two positions, and it has picked up an asset. Team B then moves into Devils draft position. I doubt it works from a purely CBA allowance re: what assets can be traded, but who knows, that document be large and loopholes exist.

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11-05-2013, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
What if the Devils swap 1st round draft positions as part of a mid-season trade with a team willing to give up a late 1st and a prospect for that draft position. The trade docs specify that the teams are not swapping actual picks, just the draft order or their 1sts. NJD still forfeits its first, but due to the trade it is the lower of the two positions, and it has picked up an asset. Team B then moves into Devils draft position. I doubt it works from a purely CBA allowance re: what assets can be traded, but who knows, that document be large and loopholes exist.
Can't trade the pick, it's come up plenty over the last few years lol

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11-05-2013, 10:08 PM
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EssendonBombers
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I'm pretty sure the pick just doesn't exist. If it were in the lottery it would essentially compound to the team that finishes last.

e.g. Lets say Edmonton finishes last and has a 40 or whatever % chance at number 1. New Jersey finishes second last and has a 20% chance. If New Jersey wins, and is forced to forfeit their pick, Edmonton get the number 1 pick anyway. This gives them a total of a 60% chance of getting the number 1 pick.

This is unfair to all other teams so presumably the Devils pick will be treated as if it does not exist.

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11-05-2013, 10:13 PM
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Kane One
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I'm pretty sure the Devils will still be in the lottery, but no matter what number overall the pick is, it will be skipped.

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11-05-2013, 10:27 PM
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From Lebrun:

Quote:
Most people are aware that the New Jersey Devils are forfeiting their first-round pick next June in the NHL draft as the final penalty from the league for the original, illegal contract given to Ilya Kovalchuk. All of which makes it harder to stomach for Devils fans, who see their team 26th in the NHL’s overall standings as of Tuesday morning.

The first round next June will have 29 picks instead of 30.

But what’s also intriguing is what the NHL will do with the draft lottery. No final decision has been made, but a source tells ESPN.com that should the Devils miss the playoffs, the league is leaning toward keeping New Jersey in the actual lottery for the purpose of figuring out the draft order.

Then, for example, if the Devils end up with the fifth overall pick out of the lottery draft, they will be removed from the draft order and all the teams beneath the Devils move up a rung.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ress-fightning

It would be extremely sad to see Devils win the lottery and happen to lose out on McDavid.

EDIT: Not McDavid, Reinhart or Ekblad. My mistake.

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11-05-2013, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
From Lebrun:



http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ress-fightning

It would be extremely sad to see Devils win the lottery and happen to lose out on McDavid.
McDavid is next year, the forfeit is this year.

Edit: Ye it would suck... but they had the decision and they blew it. Why they kept the pick to take Matteau will never be understood by 90% of the hockey world (10% apologists who can find a way to defend anything).


Last edited by Scarecrow Boat: 11-05-2013 at 10:34 PM.
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11-05-2013, 10:32 PM
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So, you're wishing for the Devils to be terrible in 2015 also?

McDavid isn't eligible this year.

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11-05-2013, 10:37 PM
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I don't think they know what they're doing, so they'll screw it up somehow.

They really shouldn't be in it and just have their % distributed. If they put them in, whatever their % chance is, automatically goes to the worst team, or the second worst team if the Devils are the worst team.

So if the Devils were 2nd worst, the worst team would have about a 44% chance of "winning". Same thing if they were the worst, the 2nd worst team would have the same roughly 44% chance of "winning".

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11-05-2013, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EssendonBombers View Post
I'm pretty sure the pick just doesn't exist. If it were in the lottery it would essentially compound to the team that finishes last.

e.g. Lets say Edmonton finishes last and has a 40 or whatever % chance at number 1. New Jersey finishes second last and has a 20% chance. If New Jersey wins, and is forced to forfeit their pick, Edmonton get the number 1 pick anyway. This gives them a total of a 60% chance of getting the number 1 pick.

This is unfair to all other teams so presumably the Devils pick will be treated as if it does not exist.
so what your saying is edmontons gonna get 4 1st overalls in 5 years?


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11-05-2013, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
I don't think they know what they're doing, so they'll screw it up somehow.

They really shouldn't be in it and just have their % distributed. If they put them in, whatever their % chance is, automatically goes to the worst team, or the second worst team if the Devils are the worst team.

So if the Devils were 2nd worst, the worst team would have about a 44% chance of "winning". Same thing if they were the worst, the 2nd worst team would have the same roughly 44% chance of "winning".
The pick still exists, it's just forfeited. Imagine if Colorado had done something between the time they won the lottery and the draft that was bad enough for the NHL to make them forfeit the pick. They wouldn't redo the lottery, they'd just take the pick.

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11-05-2013, 11:37 PM
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Such bs imo. They should give them back the 1st especially with Kovy leaving. No reasons an org should be punished twice.


P.S. This is coming from someone who hates the devils.

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11-05-2013, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Such bs imo. They should give them back the 1st especially with Kovy leaving. No reasons an org should be punished twice.


P.S. This is coming from someone who hates the devils.
Disagree. Cap penalties are cap penalties. If they forfeited the pick the first year should they have been given a free pick because Kovy 'retired'? Gotta pay the price for making mistakes. This is coming from someone who wants the Devils to be rebuilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by EssendonBombers View Post
I'm pretty sure the pick just doesn't exist. If it were in the lottery it would essentially compound to the team that finishes last.

e.g. Lets say Edmonton finishes last and has a 40 or whatever % chance at number 1. New Jersey finishes second last and has a 20% chance. If New Jersey wins, and is forced to forfeit their pick, Edmonton get the number 1 pick anyway. This gives them a total of a 60% chance of getting the number 1 pick.

This is unfair to all other teams so presumably the Devils pick will be treated as if it does not exist.
Goes both ways though. Say that situation happens but they eliminate Devils from the lottery. All the people who finished after the Devils get increased chances at the #1 pick. How is that fair to the team that finished dead last and needs the #1 pick to rebuild their franchise?

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11-05-2013, 11:50 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Such bs imo. They should give them back the 1st especially with Kovy leaving. No reasons an org should be punished twice.
Did the league punish the Devils by having Kovalchuk leave? No? Then the league isn't punishing the Devils twice.

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11-05-2013, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Count of DannyKristo View Post
I guess it depends on how exactly the lottery is done. If it's a big bin of tumbling balls or some elaborate formula run on a computer.


The lottery (NBA uses this method now too) is conducted with 14 numbered balls. Four balls are drawn. There are 1,001 possible combinations and one combination is not assigned (presumably 11-12-13-14). The remaining 1,000 combinations are assigned to the various clubs.

The worst team has a 25% chance (250 combinations). The second worst team has 18.8% (188 combinations), so on and so forth.

Pet peeve of mine is people still thinking it's the old NBA way of teams having X number of ping pong balls with their logo on it.

If the Devils are in the lottery, they would participate like normal. If they win, everybody will get their Nelson-esque "HA HA" moment while every Devils facepalms and mumbles obscenities.

In the record book, the pick will appear as forfeited. This was a picture I took from the 2011 Draft when the Devils had to fork over a 3rd rounder as part of the Kovalchuk penalty.



Ie, they skipped from #68 to #70. So if the Devils were to hypothetically be #8. The draft order would officially go from #7 to #9. Not sure why they just don't renumber, but that's just splitting hairs at that point.

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11-06-2013, 12:13 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Such bs imo. They should give them back the 1st especially with Kovy leaving. No reasons an org should be punished twice.


P.S. This is coming from someone who hates the devils.
Kovalchuk leaving has/should have no effect whatsoever on the pick, especally considering the punishment from the league isn't even for the contract Kovy walked out on. It was for the initial contract NJ tried to sign him to, which the NHL did not allow and deemed cap circumvention.

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11-06-2013, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Such bs imo. They should give them back the 1st especially with Kovy leaving. No reasons an org should be punished twice.


P.S. This is coming from someone who hates the devils.
It's not the league's fault that Kovalchuk left.

The Devils are also not being punished for that contract, but for the one they tried to give him before that.

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11-06-2013, 12:40 AM
  #25
Jtown
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Let's also add that this cap punishment is a made up penalty.

There was no rule that said that if you do these type of contracts that you will be penalized a draft pick.

Many cap circumvention contracts have been made and none of them faced the threat of penalty.

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