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Tue., Nov. 5, 2013| Flyers 1 at Hurricanes 2 (OT)

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Old
11-06-2013, 12:40 PM
  #226
OgbertTheNerd
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Time to REALLY shake up the lines!

Giroux Couts Vinny
Hartnell Vinny Read
McGinn Schenn Simmonds
Vinny's gonna be tired.

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11-06-2013, 12:46 PM
  #227
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Time to REALLY shake up the lines!

Giroux Couts Vinny
Hartnell Vinny Read
McGinn Schenn Simmonds
Jake traded for Tye's brother plus? With Tye on the 4th and Vinny double shifted. I like it!


Just ****in' with you

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11-06-2013, 01:03 PM
  #228
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I do not understand how, in only two seasons' time, a true powerhouse offense can dwindle and regress to the point where simple passing and shooting are tremendous struggles.

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11-06-2013, 01:05 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I do not understand how, in only two seasons' time, a true powerhouse offense can dwindle and regress to the point where simple passing and shooting are tremendous struggles.
Maybe we need to hire the shrink that MAF had?

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11-06-2013, 01:06 PM
  #230
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I do not understand how, in only two seasons' time, a true powerhouse offense can dwindle and regress to the point where simple passing and shooting are tremendous struggles.
Because Holmgren doesn't know how to be measured with his approaches.

Goalie sucks...ok let's surround him with stay at home types and trade away or let go some of our offensive catalysts....

Guy is one big abject failure. Let's get rid of this high stakes poker player GM who has devolved into a chinese checker player and get somebody who knows how to play chess...

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11-06-2013, 01:15 PM
  #231
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Because Holmgren doesn't know how to be measured with his approaches.

Goalie sucks...ok let's surround him with stay at home types and trade away or let go some of our offensive catalysts....

Guy is one big abject failure. Let's get rid of this high stakes poker player GM who has devolved into a chinese checker player and get somebody who knows how to play chess...


I had a feeling that new username floating about would be you.

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11-06-2013, 01:18 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post


I had a feeling that new username floating about would be you.
I tried to hold out but couldn't any longer....

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11-06-2013, 01:18 PM
  #233
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This may be a really stupid question, but is it possible to just flat out find a new owner?

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11-06-2013, 02:06 PM
  #234
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This may be a really stupid question, but is it possible to just flat out find a new owner?
Nope.


I mean there are ways, but none of them are realistically going to happen any time soon.

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11-06-2013, 02:09 PM
  #235
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Nope.


I mean there are ways, but none of them are realistically going to happen any time soon.
Is he the longest single owner of a team in history?

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11-06-2013, 02:10 PM
  #236
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Is he the longest single owner of a team in history?
That's an MSE question.

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11-06-2013, 02:12 PM
  #237
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If Comcast gets a new chariman, doesn't Comcast own the Flyers and not Ed Snider?

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11-06-2013, 02:16 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I do not understand how, in only two seasons' time, a true powerhouse offense can dwindle and regress to the point where simple passing and shooting are tremendous struggles.
Over the seasons we've lost goal scorers that score outside of garbage goals, two-way forward ability, and all of our puck moving ability as well as point shots on the back-end. Pronger and Carle are gone (Pronger had the best point shot I've ever seen play for the Flyers, Carle was at least an excellent puck mover), we've lost two great two-way presences in Richards and Carter (one of which made our PK more of a threat then it's ever been and the other of which was the best goal scorer we've seen in a long time and could score goals in multiple fashions), and it probably doesn't help never having a good coach. Timonen is also our only real remnant of puck moving ability (well, there's Streit I guess) but age has caught up to him and it's not like he ever possessed a big point shot either.

Our D is supposed to work by committee and revolved around D-zone first but our forward work best off the rush and off passing plays. We don't have any finishing ability though with Hartnell and Simmonds disappearing. Our D also has no way to facilitate any great rushes really. So there's a disconnect between D and Forward and even within just the forwards we have no finishing ability. This leads to bad games and losses. Bad games and losses combined with how last season went leads to no confidence whatsoever and poorer passing. Ultimately leaving us with nothing.

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11-06-2013, 02:19 PM
  #239
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Two years ago we didn't have Richards, Carter, or Pronger, and Carle was statistically a detriment offensively. We also had essentially the same team we have now, but with Jagr...though he was more of an anchor for the second half of the season. They were still dominant offensively.

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11-06-2013, 02:22 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Two years ago we didn't have Richards, Carter, or Pronger, and Carle was statistically a detriment offensively. We also had essentially the same team we have now, but with Jagr...though he was more of an anchor for the second half of the season. They were still dominant offensively.
I don't recall that team too well, but didn't that also involve a lot of career seasons as well as the games of Hartnell and Simmonds not falling off a cliff?

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11-06-2013, 02:25 PM
  #241
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I don't recall that team too well, but didn't that also involve a lot of career seasons as well as the games of Hartnell and Simmonds not falling off a cliff?
There's so much that has gone wrong with the team that it's seriously hard to pin down. Even last year, when Lavi's system was collapsing, it was clear that terrible individual play was also a major factor, and that has only gotten worse. There are flaws with team construction, there were flaws with coaching and with how the GM handled it, but that still doesn't explain how so many of the players themselves have come to suck at even the most basic hockey functions.

I would love to know if any team with largely the same players has ever had such an epic offensive regression, and with the team at such a young age to boot.

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11-06-2013, 02:27 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Two years ago we didn't have Richards, Carter, or Pronger, and Carle was statistically a detriment offensively. We also had essentially the same team we have now, but with Jagr...though he was more of an anchor for the second half of the season. They were still dominant offensively.
That team overachieved pretty highly, I also think we also are relying way to much on the development of Schenn and Couturier.

Simmonds, IMO, is not and should never be a top 6 forward even strength, he just doesn't have the stick skills or the vision with the puck.

God only knows whats the deal with Hartnell...Same goes with Giroux and his lack of goals.

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11-06-2013, 02:30 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Two years ago we didn't have Richards, Carter, or Pronger, and Carle was statistically a detriment offensively. We also had essentially the same team we have now, but with Jagr...though he was more of an anchor for the second half of the season. They were still dominant offensively.
We've regressed back to that point during the Stevens era where if we don't do well on the PP, we're ****ed....and our PP sucks. During the high point of Laviolette's tenure (basically 10-11), we were really good in all situations.

That 10-11 team might actually be the best Flyers team -- top to bottom -- I've seen (born in '87). Blows my mind that people thought it was a good idea to dismantle it. Think about that 11-12 NHL playoffs, too. Wide, wide open, and I don't think that Devils team beats that 2011 Flyers team.

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11-06-2013, 02:31 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's so much that has gone wrong with the team that it's seriously hard to pin down. Even last year, when Lavi's system was collapsing, it was clear that terrible individual play was also a major factor, and that has only gotten worse. There are flaws with team construction, there were flaws with coaching and with how the GM handled it, but that still doesn't explain how so many of the players themselves have come to suck at even the most basic hockey functions.

I would love to know if any team with largely the same players has ever had such an epic offensive regression, and with the team at such a young age to boot.
Just speaking for myself but I don't think it's a mystery. Can't expect any offensive contribution from the back-end and we have one or two guys on offense that would be actually expected to score 30 G even in a normal season. The majority of our forwards lean towards passing, assisting, and play making more then anything. Hartnell and Simmonds are the type of players to score garbage goals, but even if they were both performing we can't expect two lesser offensive players that are limited to scoring goals in pretty much one fashion to carry the goal production. Matt Read is also probably our best two-way forward. I love Read and he might be my favorite Flyers player right now, but even in a good season we can only expect like 20 to 25 G and 50 to 55 P. That's very sad that he's our best two-way presence at forward.

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11-06-2013, 02:32 PM
  #245
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We've regressed back to that point during the Stevens era where if we don't do well on the PP, we're ****ed....and our PP sucks. During the high point of Laviolette's tenure (basically 10-11), we were really good in all situations.

That 10-11 team might actually be the best Flyers team -- top to bottom -- I've seen (born in '87). Blows my mind that people thought it was a good idea to dismantle it. Think about that 11-12 NHL playoffs, too. Wide, wide open, and I don't think that Devils team beats that 2011 Flyers team.
That team was one decent goalie away from winning the Cup. So, yeah, it was a good team. It was also almost immediately dismantled.

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11-06-2013, 02:40 PM
  #246
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Just speaking for myself but I don't think it's a mystery. Can't expect any offensive contribution from the back-end and we have one or two guys on offense that would be actually expected to score 30 G even in a normal season. The majority of our forwards lean towards passing, assisting, and play making more then anything. Hartnell and Simmonds are the type of players to score garbage goals, but even if they were both performing we can't expect two lesser offensive players that are limited to scoring goals in pretty much one fashion to carry the goal production. Matt Read is also probably our best two-way forward. I love Read and he might be my favorite Flyers player right now, but even in a good season we can only expect like 20 to 25 G and 50 to 55 P. That's very sad that he's our best two-way presence at forward.
I mean that's all well and good, but it doesn't explain why everyone on the roster is struggling so much with skating with the puck, passing into players' skates, receiving passes when they aren't awful, and hitting the net. That's what I'm getting at. There is a fundamental regression in basic hockey skills that goes beyond team construction and such.

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11-06-2013, 02:43 PM
  #247
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I mean that's all well and good, but it doesn't explain why everyone on the roster is struggling so much with skating with the puck, passing into players' skates, receiving passes when they aren't awful, and hitting the net. That's what I'm getting at. There is a fundamental regression in basic hockey skills that goes beyond team construction and such.
Our D can't skate with the puck for the most part and the vast majority of our players I wouldn't describe as shooters.

Then there's also the fact that the coaching situation has been completely mishandled and that their confidence should be non-existent right now.

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11-06-2013, 02:45 PM
  #248
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Just speaking for myself but I don't think it's a mystery. Can't expect any offensive contribution from the back-end and we have one or two guys on offense that would be actually expected to score 30 G even in a normal season. The majority of our forwards lean towards passing, assisting, and play making more then anything. Hartnell and Simmonds are the type of players to score garbage goals, but even if they were both performing we can't expect two lesser offensive players that are limited to scoring goals in pretty much one fashion to carry the goal production. Matt Read is also probably our best two-way forward. I love Read and he might be my favorite Flyers player right now, but even in a good season we can only expect like 20 to 25 G and 50 to 55 P. That's very sad that he's our best two-way presence at forward.
To elaborate on your point, there are too many of the same players, and specialist at that, on this team. Hartnell and Simmonds are the same player with the same deficiencies and strengths. Each are subpar defensively and int he neutral zone. They need to be protected and you can do that with one line but hard to do with two. Plus their strength is on the PP scoring garbage goals, for which you only need as the 2nd pp unit gets so little time.

L. Schenn, Grossman, and Coburn are the same defensive defensemen with questionable puck skills and hokey sense. At most you need two, one guy on a shutdown pair and maybe a 3rd pair guy to play soft minutes. Having 3 of these guys, and especially two on one pair, means they will get hemmed in often and won't produce a transition game to offensive chances. Streit and Timonen at this point are powerplay socialists with average to mediocre defensive skills. There is not a single two way dman on this team.

As far as forward, there are only two 1st line talents on the roster presently in Giroux and Voracek, but both are playmakers and don't really work well together. Also, there two way play has dropped, with Giroux plummeting to Briere levels. Giroux at this point needs to be protected when beforehand they could be matched up against other top lines.

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11-06-2013, 02:48 PM
  #249
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Saying Giroux has regressed into Briere levels and that Timonen is a PP specialist and not a two-way presence is some big hyperbole and both of those player's struggles are being greatly overstated mostly because they're the two skaters we rely on most.

Otherwise, yeah, you're pretty spot-on.

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11-06-2013, 02:54 PM
  #250
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Our D can't skate with the puck for the most part and the vast majority of our players I wouldn't describe as shooters.

Then there's also the fact that the coaching situation has been completely mishandled and that their confidence should be non-existent right now.
The Flyers forwards look like garbage skating with the puck as well it's not just the D; that's why I find it so alarming, and while we don't have any snipers it's not like our forwards career shooting percentages have all been between 0%-5% through their careers. It's a teamwide epidemic.

What the hell have they been doing the last two years? Is it a practice issue? Coaching? Organizational culture of laziness?

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