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Let's face the truth, this is not a good team.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:07 AM
  #401
LePoche69
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I agree. Funny hearing the size card after every loss. You don't hear it when we dominated Toronto, Beat Boston, Anaheim etc



King doesn't belong with a guy like Kopitar, they just don't have a ton of depth on the wings. He should be on the 3rd line at best, a Bourque type player.

We have tons of guys like the ones you named.
Wrong. Those guys are the perfect complement to what they have on each line. They're fast and good enough to play on these lines every night, to the contrary of players like Moen, Prust and White. And they make a difference in the playoffs.

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12-11-2013, 11:10 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Wrong. Many of us were still pointing at it even during the winning streak, pretending it will be even more important come playoffs time.
Correct.

And despite Bergevin making waves about how the team needs to get bigger, he still gave DD a long-term deal and signed Brière on a team featuring the smallest top 9 in the NHL.

Drewiske doesn't cut it and Parros is not effective. Crankshaft is turning out to be as close as he could get to adding grit but clearly, he can't be a regular. Good thing he pre-emptively signed Bouillon last season.

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12-11-2013, 11:13 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Wrong. Those guys are the perfect complement to what they have on each line. They're fast and good enough to play on these lines every night, to the contrary of players like Moen, Prust and White. And they make a difference in the playoffs.
You're going to have an uphill battle convincing someone that bigger players are the way to go in a bush league like the NHL where rules are just suggested guidelines applied capriciously. How many guys do we have who can do what the Kings did, in front and into the opposition blue paint? How many Dustin Browns do we have?

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12-11-2013, 11:13 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Slow progress. The org. is full of these smallish players, who are not Gallaghers -- no balls. You can't play teams like LA and feature cowards like Diaz, who got shoved like a rag doll and never responded. Really means a lot that he's a "good" guy in the room.
Of our smallish forwards, Gallagher looked good. He was still crashing and banging and he looked rejuvenated when placed with Galch and Eller. Gionta also looked not too bad, offensively he can't really shoot the puck anymore, but he still came to compete despite being significantly smaller than everyone on the Kings roster. DD and Briere were absolute no shows, which has become a routine when facing bigger and competitive opponents, especially for DD.

Diaz was great on the powerplay, but if he's going to be effective against big teams like LA he needs a big tough partner on his pairing... not Bouillon...

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12-11-2013, 11:17 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Correct.

And despite Bergevin making waves about how the team needs to get bigger, he still gave DD a long-term deal and signed Brière on a team featuring the smallest top 9 in the NHL.

Drewiske doesn't cut it and Parros is not effective. Crankshaft is turning out to be as close as he could get to adding grit but clearly, he can't be a regular. Good thing he pre-emptively signed Bouillon last season.
Your critical thinking get in a way of your patience. You are expected to believe to what MB says and not to what he does. lol.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:18 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
How is he a Bourque type player? Bourque is more skilled but not as big nor as tough to play against as King.
It's a losing battle on these forums. Bourque shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as most players his size. He's just a big-bodied player who plays very small and can't even bother to show up most games.

Maybe he's a good guy in the room, though, right Marc?

Quote:
We have a ton of 6'3 220lbs+ forwards? Enlighten me please
That thought must have been stolen from some other forum.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:22 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by lostriver View Post
Your critical thinking get in a way of your patience. You are expected to believe to what MB says and not to what he does. lol.
So all these trips to Chicago MB has been making lately, it wasn't for scouting purposes?

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:27 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Bump:

So, whats the deal? We are 9-1-1 in the last 11 games and this record is a shadow on what kind of team we really are.

We are a team that relies on goaltending and the PP. Not gonna win much come PO time.

Last night was a wake up and smell the coffee, something I have said before and got flamed.
These last 3 weeks must have been really tough on you, just waiting for the Habs to lose a game so you can bump this thread. I feel for you.



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Old
12-11-2013, 11:28 AM
  #409
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
I look at a player's style more then anything. The problem I see with the Habs is that the bigger guys just don't turn out well for the most part.
I will also point out that I'm routing for Crisp to make it and surpass all expectation. what a treat that would be.


Well to me, that's a lie and the wins has shadowed a lot of the holes the habs have.
Look no further then vs Buffalo, the worst team in the NHL. I could point out the games vs NJ, wow thanks Price/Budja.
For me, it's a combination of things that I don't like. I know that all teams have bad night(see Anaheim on Koivu's return) but for the Habs, it's a forming habit. The Habs are for the most part a good team with the puck but with out? The lack of puck possession is cause for concern as well has the defensive zone break out. The team is for the most part competitive but does lack some gritty talented player.
Pacioretty and Emelin seem to have turned out pretty good. For the younger guys we'll have to wait till they actually are NHL ready.

Every team in the NHL wins in large part thanks to their best players. Price doesn't get 6.5 mil/year to be an average goalie, he is supposed to be a top 5 guy.

I'm sure there are pieces missing, but in order to build a true cup contender that will be among the top teams for 4-5 years, you have to be patient and build it one stone at a time.

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12-11-2013, 11:32 AM
  #410
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Good regular season team. Not a good playoff team.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:33 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Ghost View Post
These last 3 weeks must have been really tough on you, just waiting for the Habs to lose a game so you can bump this thread. I feel for you.


This thread never disappear from the first page.

Even if I'm not convinced by everything written here, positive or negative, I read some very legitimate arguments. Why is it that we can't have a nice discussion without summarizing it between "everything's fine, you're so wrong" and "Habs are bad, you're so wrong" ?

It think it is evident that Habs aren't a cup contender, and aren't a bottom tier team. So it's pretty normal to discuss what's missing, what should be the next moves, etc.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:36 AM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Pacioretty and Emelin seem to have turned out pretty good. For the younger guys we'll have to wait till they actually are NHL ready.

Every team in the NHL wins in large part thanks to their best players. Price doesn't get 6.5 mil/year to be an average goalie, he is supposed to be a top 5 guy.

I'm sure there are pieces missing, but in order to build a true cup contender that will be among the top teams for 4-5 years, you have to be patient and build it one stone at a time.
I totaly agree with that. The problem I see is that there isn't enough coming up in the pipeline to fill every hole, and that there is already a nice core in place. So patience could become blindness pretty easily. My opinion is that MB should trade some prospects and/or picks to fill at least one of these holes.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:45 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
I totaly agree with that. The problem I see is that there isn't enough coming up in the pipeline to fill every hole, and that there is already a nice core in place. So patience could become blindness pretty easily. My opinion is that MB should trade some prospects and/or picks to fill at least one of these holes.
It's not just patience, but what is being done while patience is preached.

Despite drafting the likes of McCarron, De La Rose and Crisp, we still managed to target a slew of midgets. We've renewed and extended contracts to players who don't fit the mold we're after. Look at the 2012 draft, the first under MB's tenure, again, an obsession with a lot of players that are better suited to European rinks but who are just steamroll fodder at the NHL level. It's a big man's game, with few exceptions. If all of these midgets were really worth drafting, how come we can almost never convince another team to downsize and take them in a trade? How many diminutive players do we really need?

We're building a perpetual make-a-wish foundation for the vertically-challenged and great-atmosphere-in-the-dressing-room lovers.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:50 AM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Bump:

So, whats the deal? We are 9-1-1 in the last 11 games and this record is a shadow on what kind of team we really are.

We are a team that relies on goaltending and the PP. Not gonna win much come PO time.

Last night was a wake up and smell the coffee, something I have said before and got flamed.
Here we go with the chicken littles again.. Last year in the playoffs, the fact that we where without Emelin and Eller, Price was clearly playing hurt and we got stonewalled by Anderson was clearly a true indication of our team

Therrien's record since his arrival clearly stinks.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:53 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Pacioretty and Emelin seem to have turned out pretty good. For the younger guys we'll have to wait till they actually are NHL ready.

Every team in the NHL wins in large part thanks to their best players. Price doesn't get 6.5 mil/year to be an average goalie, he is supposed to be a top 5 guy.

I'm sure there are pieces missing, but in order to build a true cup contender that will be among the top teams for 4-5 years, you have to be patient and build it one stone at a time.
I did say aside from a few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
I totaly agree with that. The problem I see is that there isn't enough coming up in the pipeline to fill every hole, and that there is already a nice core in place. So patience could become blindness pretty easily. My opinion is that MB should trade some prospects and/or picks to fill at least one of these holes.
Our best prospect with the dogs are IMO:
Tinordi/Beaulieu
Thomas/Leblanc
Andrighetto/Pateryn
Holland
So 2 Defensive Dman, one PMD , two smaller sniper, one 2way winger and one smart Center.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:53 AM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
It's not just patience, but what is being done while patience is preached.

Despite drafting the likes of McCarron, De La Rose and Crisp, we still managed to target a slew of midgets. We've renewed and extended contracts to players who don't fit the mold we're after. Look at the 2012 draft, the first under MB's tenure, again, an obsession with a lot of players that are better suited to European rinks but who are just steamroll fodder at the NHL level. It's a big man's game, with few exceptions. If all of these midgets were really worth drafting, how come we can almost never convince another team to downsize and take them in a trade? How many diminutive players do we really need?

We're building a perpetual make-a-wish foundation for the vertically-challenged and great-atmosphere-in-the-dressing-room lovers.
Honestly, it's time to shake off the smurf label.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:55 AM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Pricef View Post
Therrien's record since his arrival clearly stinks.
Therrien's record built without facing any Western teams last season.

Reality check came early this year and it wasn't in the mail. We can't compete with the Kings. Case closed, no matter how or how many times Therrien shuffles his midgets.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:59 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Therrien's record built without facing any Western teams last season.

Reality check came early this year and it wasn't in the mail. We can't compete with the Kings. Case closed, no matter how or how many times Therrien shuffles his midgets.
Actually the reality check came last spring when we couldn't compete against a crappy Sens team.

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Old
12-11-2013, 12:04 PM
  #419
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Actually the reality check came last spring when we couldn't compete against a crappy Sens team.
That too. But we had an amazing regular season team -- so much good it did.


Last edited by Runner77: 12-11-2013 at 01:16 PM.
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Old
12-11-2013, 12:07 PM
  #420
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My motto from the last couple of years: Don't get too up, don't get too down.

Did we really dominate any of the teams we beat in the previous 10 games before last night? No. Did the Kings really play way better than us last night, or was it just a case of one of those nights where everything works for them and nothing for us?

Bottom line is, there is nothing to glean from this game other than the things we already knew. We lack a serious frontline scorer, and we are small down the middle. We didn't suddenly solve these problems during the winning run.

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Old
12-11-2013, 12:08 PM
  #421
Canadiens Ghost
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Even if I'm not convinced by everything written here, positive or negative, I read some very legitimate arguments. Why is it that we can't have a nice discussion without summarizing it between "everything's fine, you're so wrong" and "Habs are bad, you're so wrong" ?

It think it is evident that Habs aren't a cup contender, and aren't a bottom tier team. So it's pretty normal to discuss what's missing, what should be the next moves, etc.
The problem with a lot of Habs fans is they believe/demand that a team that finished bottom 3 only 2 years ago can become a Cup contender over night. The team has a great 10 game stretch and then suddenly after 1 bad loss, the world is coming to an end.

To say as in the thread title that the Habs are not a good team is simply not true. I agree however that they won't be Cup contenders for at least a couple more seasons. It will take time but Bergevin is doing it the right way... with patience and through the draft.

Yes, we need at least a big solid number 3D and a couple of power forwards to replace our smaller guys for us to become contenders but there are 29 other teams looking for such players. You won't quickly get such players unless you overpay for them either in a trade (in which you will be creating other holes in your line-up) or through free agency (in which it's very hard to acquire and usually don't pay dividends because players are grossly overpaid for what they bring to the team). The only other way is through the draft and that takes time.

Many here have unrealistic expectations. If they think it's so easy to build a Cup winner, they should apply for the GM job the next time there is an opening.


n.b. my comments are not directed at you.

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12-11-2013, 01:12 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
I did say aside from a few.



Our best prospect with the dogs are IMO:
Tinordi/Beaulieu
Thomas/Leblanc
Andrighetto/Pateryn
Holland
So 2 Defensive Dman, one PMD , two smaller sniper, one 2way winger and one smart Center.
...and that's the scary part. It is not impressive at all. Tinordi could become a nice shut down d-man, physical, mobile enough to be pair with a #1 D, or with a #2 on a second pair. But right now he still has problem establishing himself in the AHL, and he will surely have at least 2 seasons in the NHL at being a bottom pairing guy playing sheltered minutes.

Beaulieu, I don't believe in him anymore. He's the type of d-man who should make his mark in the AHL already, at least in an offensive role. He looks more and more like our new Hollywood Hainsey. Hainsey did had a respectable career, which Beaulieu may very well have also, but it would have been better to trade him when he had value as a prospect.

Leblanc won't be more than a thrid liner, and isn't big or nasty. Easy to find such players anywhere.

Pateryn is older. His skill set will never make him a PMD able to play on the PP, and his defensive skill set will never make him better than Gorges, which is a better case scenario. Still, he could fit in nicely as a bottom pairing guy, but that's not what would put the Habs in the top tier.

Andrighetto and Thomas... Interesting, but still small and light. It's ok if they continue to develop well, and if the Habs get rid of other small players. They're certainly not filling any holes the core has right now.

Holland could become a nice defensive center, not big nor fast nor fiesty. Again, those type of players are 13 a dozen.

So all in all, the team still has holes, and nobody will be able to fill them before another 2-3 years. That's why I do believe patience is ok, but MB must move to fill some holes at the same time.

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Old
12-11-2013, 02:01 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Ghost View Post
The problem with a lot of Habs fans is they believe/demand that a team that finished bottom 3 only 2 years ago can become a Cup contender over night. The team has a great 10 game stretch and then suddenly after 1 bad loss, the world is coming to an end.

To say as in the thread title that the Habs are not a good team is simply not true. I agree however that they won't be Cup contenders for at least a couple more seasons. It will take time but Bergevin is doing it the right way... with patience and through the draft.

Yes, we need at least a big solid number 3D and a couple of power forwards to replace our smaller guys for us to become contenders but there are 29 other teams looking for such players. You won't quickly get such players unless you overpay for them either in a trade (in which you will be creating other holes in your line-up) or through free agency (in which it's very hard to acquire and usually don't pay dividends because players are grossly overpaid for what they bring to the team). The only other way is through the draft and that takes time.

Many here have unrealistic expectations. If they think it's so easy to build a Cup winner, they should apply for the GM job the next time there is an opening.


n.b. my comments are not directed at you.
Agreed. We have to remind ourselves that Bergevin still hasn't completely re-shaped this team to what he probably wants it to look like. He only last year got rid of horrible mistakes like Gomez and Kaberle, and still has Gionta's ridiculous contract on the books for instance. So not only is he trying to re-build the team into a winner, but he still has to deal with the mistakes of the old regime.

Next year will be an interesting year for us if we can take Gionta's 5 million and turn it into something special. Moulson and Callahan would be my first choices. Of course they will be hard to obtain(and will cost more than 5 for sure), so i'm guessing Bergevin will go the trade route. Guys like Gaborik and Vanek i'd be very wary of.

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12-11-2013, 02:08 PM
  #424
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Good regular season team. Not a good playoff team.
why don't we just wait and see until we jump to conclusions.bits only December. last year habs had too many injuries to compete. lets see what they can do when healthy

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12-11-2013, 03:05 PM
  #425
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
How is he a Bourque type player? Bourque is more skilled but not as big nor as tough to play against as King.

We have a ton of 6'3 220lbs+ forwards? Enlighten me please
King is an erratic player on offense, also erratic in the use of his size. Not sure why people obsess that we need a player like him. He struggles to put up points playing with a guy like Kopitar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Wrong. Many of us were still pointing at it even during the winning streak, pretending it will be even more important come playoffs time.
Every team in NHL history has weakenesses, it's just that some of you stay up at night obsessing over them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Wrong. Those guys are the perfect complement to what they have on each line. They're fast and good enough to play on these lines every night, to the contrary of players like Moen, Prust and White. And they make a difference in the playoffs.
Guys like King Nolan and co are no more top 6 wingers than Prust Moen or White. They just glorified on here because of their size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
I totaly agree with that. The problem I see is that there isn't enough coming up in the pipeline to fill every hole, and that there is already a nice core in place. So patience could become blindness pretty easily. My opinion is that MB should trade some prospects and/or picks to fill at least one of these holes.
Maybe there isn't, but the test of that will be in 2-3 years with the current prospect group at the NHL level. I'd rather give those guys a chance before making expensive trades to take their spot away.

The area of need I see is a 1st line sniping winger in the mold of a Vanek or Gaborik(though I'm not a big fan of him).

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