HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Holmgren DOESN'T deserve to get fired

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-03-2013, 03:22 AM
  #301
dats81
Registered User
 
dats81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Carinthia
Country: Austria
Posts: 2,039
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Holmgren has admitted that letting Jagr walk was a mistake. I think many of us thought they would still be fine offensively even with Jagr walking away.
i think trading JVR on top of that that offseason even with as much as he drove us crazy with his inconsistencies was almost as big of a mistake. I like Luke and all but the offense took a big hit that offseason. Of course many players were coming off career years so a drop off was expected. I didnt think a drop off to the level we saw was expected.
I still think a deal is going to have to be made. Hartnell,Simmonds, Downie. One of those 3 is going to have to go I think. I doubt they are going to trade Hartnell. for one i doubt you could get any kind of return for him right now and 2 the organization loves him. Probably the only logical move really is to deal Simmonds and another piece to get a scoring winger.
I think Simmer is likely the odd man out if you are looking to bring back Downie.
Even more so I remember a lot of peole demanding more ice time and 1st PP time for our rising young stars like Voracek, Simmonds and B.Schenn.

Jagrs age and overall soreness were always a concern and some of us were predicting a minor bump to even strength prediction. But some of our younger wingers stagnating or even regressing was what actually happened and kills this team right now.

dats81 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2013, 09:37 AM
  #302
RinaldoZac
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 212
vCash: 1046
Holmer deserves some credit for Mason and Downie! Happy Birthday Homer!

RinaldoZac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 10:45 AM
  #303
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Holmgren needs to step down since he won't be fired..

"Team" is reporting to the press that they are not playing as a team. Giroux just noted it and Timonen as well.

Coach's job to get them to do so..same with Captain. However, the root of the problem that seems to constantly carry over in the last couple of years is that the personnel is fundamentally flawed...particularly the D corps. That is on the GM. He has yet to follow up the Richards and Carter trades properly...

Last couple of drafts they moved in the direction of righting the wrongs of giving away picks and not developing D men but the GM needs to do more to get this team back on track. Berube is just a band-aid right now.

I don't have confidence in Holmgren assembling a cohesive winning product any longer. I would rather he step down..we move some aging vets for picks, be patient with our young core and reload. Bridging the gaps with the likes of Lecavalier and Streit is only window dressing and a Potemkin village approach....

Tired of being mired in mediocrity last couple of years although missing the playoffs is not actually a mediocre outcome.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 11:12 AM
  #304
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 16,528
vCash: 50
You are correct that he will have to step down , as he will never be fired by Snider.

Is it possible to take the money spent on our D and come up with a worse unit ?

bennysflyers16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 11:57 AM
  #305
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,054
vCash: 500
If the season keeps trending the way it is and we miss the playoffs he sure as **** needs to be fired. Like more then ever before.

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 12:54 PM
  #306
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 13,946
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
If the season keeps trending the way it is and we miss the playoffs he sure as **** needs to be fired. Like more then ever before.
"If the season keeps trending as it is" through 52 games, then the Flyers will make the playoffs.





The Flyers have lost three straight games to 3 of the 4 hottest teams in the conference and their confidence is low right now. Every team goes through streaks during a season.

I'd be surprised if Holmgren was back if the Flyers do miss the playoffs, though.

__________________
I deride your truth handling abilities
CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 12:58 PM
  #307
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
"If the season keeps trending as it is" through 52 games, then the Flyers will make the playoffs.





The Flyers have lost three straight games to 3 of the 4 hottest teams in the conference and their confidence is low right now. Every team goes through streaks during a season.
Exactly. Everyone needs to relax. The Flyers are in the midst of a run at the playoffs. This isn't like last season where at this point they were pretty much eliminated. They currently hold the 8th spot, I believe. I'm not going to worry about missing the playoffs until, you know, it looks like we might miss the playoffs. Four bad games in January doesn't mean anything, just like four good games in January doesn't mean anything. As long as they keep fighting and stay around where they are now, they'll be fine. If they don't, deal with it then. But panicking now does nothing.

Quote:
I'd be surprised if Holmgren was back if the Flyers do miss the playoffs, though.
Agreed.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 01:00 PM
  #308
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
"If the season keeps trending as it is" through 52 games, then the Flyers will make the playoffs.





The Flyers have lost three straight games to 3 of the 4 hottest teams in the conference and their confidence is low right now. Every team goes through streaks during a season.

I'd be surprised if Holmgren was back if the Flyers do miss the playoffs, though.
You know it's not quite that simple.

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 01:02 PM
  #309
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 13,946
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
You know it's not quite that simple.
As simple as using the last three games as a trend for the final 30?

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 01:16 PM
  #310
Qyburn
Registered User
 
Qyburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,447
vCash: 500
Can someone please explain why Richards/Carter keeps getting brought up? I've seen it mentioned several times over the last few days and I never understand the context. For example "follow the trades up properly" I can't figure out what that means.

Please at least tell me it's a unanimous consensus that Voracek+Simmonds+Schenn+Couturier >>>>> Richards+Carter.

Thanks in advance.

Qyburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 01:31 PM
  #311
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
As simple as using the last three games as a trend for the final 30?
Not like I've been analyzing this team and watching it this entire season and past seasons I guess. I must be basing it off of three games entirely.

I also never said they're not making the playoffs. I said "if" and it's completely up in the air at this point with things not looking good.

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 01:35 PM
  #312
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qyburn View Post
Can someone please explain why Richards/Carter keeps getting brought up? I've seen it mentioned several times over the last few days and I never understand the context. For example "follow the trades up properly" I can't figure out what that means.

Please at least tell me it's a unanimous consensus that Voracek+Simmonds+Schenn+Couturier >>>>> Richards+Carter.

Thanks in advance.
I assume your passive aggressive inquiry is directed actually at me...

Anyway for the sake of time since I've posted my arguments numerous times about why I think he didn't follow up the trades properly...it basically has to do with getting Bryz, keeping a coach around whose system was exposed for too long....trying to force him to adjust that system instead of getting rid of him, assembling a stay at home D for a crap goalie to insulate him, actually letting two players that fit the system that Lavi wanted to play walk etc etc. If he followed up correctly they would have made the playoffs. People have other reasons for it..these are some of mine albeit .. a watered down version..

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 02:03 PM
  #313
DecadesofFutility
Registered User
 
DecadesofFutility's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
Country: United States
Posts: 435
vCash: 500
Holmgren better have a big move up his sleeve

My preferance would be that Holmgren quit so that maybe we can get some new thinking from our GM.
Why do we constantly sign 33+ year old players to 4-5 year deals?
Why do we constantly add NTC or NMC to our deals?
Why do we constantly spend all the way to the cap, reducing our trading flexibility?
These moves from Holmgren seem reactionary to me, not visionary.
He needs to look realistically at the team and embrace rebuilding.

I could see the sense if we were 1 piece away from contending for a cup.
At this point I see no way this team is close to cup-worthy, they are multiple pieces from that point.

The Flyers offense is in need of upgrading but, the defense is in worse overall shape at this point.
The quality of the Flyers defense is very average, unacceptable for a veteran defensive corp.
They seem slow, mistake prone and unskilled with the puck at times on the ice.

Holmgren should have focused on fixing the defense with younger players, not aging vets.
For the present we could hope that Holmgren would makes trades that position the anemic defense to improve.
Therefore, Holmgren needs to make some trades to retool our defense, making it faster and more skilled.
It may require some overpay on the Flyer's part to accomplish this task.
They need to embrace retooling the defensive corp with younger players, even if it leads to rookie mistakes.
The Flyers need faster and more skilled defensemen to compete with the better teams in the league.
Holmgren should trade some older veterans if they are able to get reasonable returns for them.

The newly drafted defensemen are years of development from making the Flyers, so something
should be done to upgrade this current defense for the future.
Hopefully, Morin and Hagg can help to solidify the Flyers defense someday in the future.

DecadesofFutility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 02:12 PM
  #314
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
My preferance would be that Holmgren quit so that maybe we can get some new thinking from our GM.
Why do we constantly sign 33+ year old players to 4-5 year deals?
Why do we constantly add NTC or NMC to our deals?
Why do we constantly spend all the way to the cap, reducing our trading flexibility?
These moves from Holmgren seem reactionary to me, not visionary.
He needs to look realistically at the team and embrace rebuilding.

I could see the sense if we were 1 piece away from contending for a cup.
At this point I see no way this team is close to cup-worthy, they are multiple pieces from that point.

The Flyers offense is in need of upgrading but, the defense is in worse overall shape at this point.
The quality of the Flyers defense is very average, unacceptable for a veteran defensive corp.
They seem slow, mistake prone and unskilled with the puck at times on the ice.

Holmgren should have focused on fixing the defense with younger players, not aging vets.
For the present we could hope that Holmgren would makes trades that position the anemic defense to improve.
Therefore, Holmgren needs to make some trades to retool our defense, making it faster and more skilled.
It may require some overpay on the Flyer's part to accomplish this task.
They need to embrace retooling the defensive corp with younger players, even if it leads to rookie mistakes.
The Flyers need faster and more skilled defensemen to compete with the better teams in the league.
Holmgren should trade some older veterans if they are able to get reasonable returns for them.

The newly drafted defensemen are years of development from making the Flyers, so something
should be done to upgrade this current defense for the future.
Hopefully, Morin and Hagg can help to solidify the Flyers defense someday in the future.
I don't want him to make a big move...he can do that up his colon....

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:07 PM
  #315
Qyburn
Registered User
 
Qyburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,447
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
I assume your passive aggressive inquiry is directed actually at me...
You couldn't be more wrong. But thanks.

I don't agree. It's a stretch and then some to string all those things together. It's trying way too hard and forcing things that just aren't relevant or connected very much. But at least I understand why it's been popping up now, I genuinely had no idea. People seem to try just about anything to justify very old arguments and stances they've taken. Similar to when you go to those conspiracy theory sites. It's human nature on the internet I suppose and I always forget about that.

Qyburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:09 PM
  #316
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,415
vCash: 5700
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Holmgren needs to step down since he won't be fired..

"Team" is reporting to the press that they are not playing as a team. Giroux just noted it and Timonen as well.

Coach's job to get them to do so..same with Captain. However, the root of the problem that seems to constantly carry over in the last couple of years is that the personnel is fundamentally flawed...particularly the D corps. That is on the GM. He has yet to follow up the Richards and Carter trades properly...


Tired of being mired in mediocrity last couple of years although missing the playoffs is not actually a mediocre outcome.
Hold on, I thought the new coach changed all of this.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:19 PM
  #317
Qyburn
Registered User
 
Qyburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,447
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
These moves from Holmgren seem reactionary to me, not visionary.
I agree with that. Actually, I think he does or did have a vision, but it's extremely outdated. The game continues to change at a rapid pace and he's probably close to the worst in the league at keeping up with the other 29. Mason's success in the context of all the previous failures, it seems to me, proves that that position is primarily a matter of luck. But the failure of the D corps exposes how stubborn his philosophies are. It's absolutely glaring that these problems have needed fixing for a while, and it wouldn't take a top notch managerial talent to get further than we've gotten, even without a big catch (suter/weber). He's done well with the forwards imo, but you can only get so far with that. His mentality is suited for the 80s or 90s.

Qyburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:22 PM
  #318
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qyburn View Post
You couldn't be more wrong. But thanks.

I don't agree. It's a stretch and then some to string all those things together. It's trying way too hard and forcing things that just aren't relevant or connected very much. But at least I understand why it's been popping up now, I genuinely had no idea. People seem to try just about anything to justify very old arguments and stances they've taken. Similar to when you go to those conspiracy theory sites. It's human nature on the internet I suppose and I always forget about that.
You actually haven't said one single thing that counters my points....they are strung together disparately because I've addressed the points in more depth many times over. Didn't feel like rehashing them. I mean the Bryz acquisition alone speaks for itself..it's not some "truther" argument or whatever counterpoint you want to characterize it as to discredit the point. The whole Boucher and Leighton tandem situation was another (predated Bryz)...and so on.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:31 PM
  #319
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 36,597
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
My preferance would be that Holmgren quit so that maybe we can get some new thinking from our GM.
Why do we constantly sign 33+ year old players to 4-5 year deals?
Why do we constantly add NTC or NMC to our deals?
Why do we constantly spend all the way to the cap, reducing our trading flexibility?
These moves from Holmgren seem reactionary to me, not visionary.
He needs to look realistically at the team and embrace rebuilding.

I could see the sense if we were 1 piece away from contending for a cup.
At this point I see no way this team is close to cup-worthy, they are multiple pieces from that point.

The Flyers offense is in need of upgrading but, the defense is in worse overall shape at this point.
The quality of the Flyers defense is very average, unacceptable for a veteran defensive corp.
They seem slow, mistake prone and unskilled with the puck at times on the ice.

Holmgren should have focused on fixing the defense with younger players, not aging vets.
For the present we could hope that Holmgren would makes trades that position the anemic defense to improve.
Therefore, Holmgren needs to make some trades to retool our defense, making it faster and more skilled.
It may require some overpay on the Flyer's part to accomplish this task.
They need to embrace retooling the defensive corp with younger players, even if it leads to rookie mistakes.
The Flyers need faster and more skilled defensemen to compete with the better teams in the league.
Holmgren should trade some older veterans if they are able to get reasonable returns for them.

The newly drafted defensemen are years of development from making the Flyers, so something
should be done to upgrade this current defense for the future.
Hopefully, Morin and Hagg can help to solidify the Flyers defense someday in the future.
So you spend half this post criticizing Homer for being too reactionary, then call for him to do something reactionary.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:34 PM
  #320
achdumeingute
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So you spend half this post criticizing Homer for being too reactionary, then call for him to do something reactionary.
isn't this what hfboards flyers forum is all about?

If this team went 82-0 people would be complaining the team doesn't have more games on the schedule.

achdumeingute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:41 PM
  #321
achdumeingute
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,262
vCash: 500
I keep seeing people post about "trade flexibility" and the cap. The cap isn't preventing us from trading, having no disposable assets is.

I don't want Homer to make any trades, other than 1 to 1 and over the top in our favor for the next 4 years. trading solves nothing, drafting does. band aid UFAs are fine. Those don't prevent us from doing anything.

achdumeingute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:46 PM
  #322
FLYERSFAN18
Registered User
 
FLYERSFAN18's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 1,882
vCash: 500
If we don't want the team to make trades, then we should all stop *****ing about how bad the team is and just watch the games. But none of us want to watch this garbage for the next 3-5 years while we wait for our prospects to start contributing at a high level.

FLYERSFAN18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:47 PM
  #323
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So you spend half this post criticizing Homer for being too reactionary, then call for him to do something reactionary.
Orwellian

"The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them..."

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 03:54 PM
  #324
achdumeingute
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
If we don't want the team to make trades, then we should all stop *****ing about how bad the team is and just watch the games. But none of us want to watch this garbage for the next 3-5 years while we wait for our prospects to start contributing at a high level.
hope you enjoyed 2009-2011, because we are still paying for it.

maybe better in 2 years if everyone hits.

achdumeingute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-24-2014, 04:04 PM
  #325
FLYERSFAN18
Registered User
 
FLYERSFAN18's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 1,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
hope you enjoyed 2009-2011, because we are still paying for it.

maybe better in 2 years if everyone hits.
Did Holmgren overpay for Pronger? Of course he did. I'm not saying to go out and trade our next four 1st round picks, but damn I cannot go through more years of watching this ****** D just to see if Morin, Haag, and Ghost can turn this team around. We need to see if we can turn Hartnell, Lecavalier, Grossmann, Streit, and Timonen into a 1st round pick or two, or maybe a two way defenseman.

Vancouver was looking at Prospal the other day. Maybe they would be interested in Hartnell for Edler. I don't know who would have to add but getting Edler would be a good start for us.

FLYERSFAN18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:36 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.