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Is The Team Tuning Out Bylsma? Thoughts?

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Old
11-07-2013, 11:07 PM
  #101
jerome garcia
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shero's the architect, he keeps bringing back these bums. i dont blame disco for tryin to polish a turd. he's slowly evolving as a coach in this league from what i can tell. if we judge him for not winning a cup every year, when only one team can win one, is that fair to him? i dont think so. babcock has one cup since 2008, the wings didnt fire him. i think our expectations are inflated because of sid and geno. it shouldnt be cup of bust anymore. it's not for me anymore. i really wouldnt be shocked if sid never gets a another cup. i hope im wrong, of course, but it wouldnt surprise me.

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11-08-2013, 12:08 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Isn't this exactly what IceCapp is referring to as the strawman arguments being tossed around?

Come on, RRP. You know better than to think that any outrage or anger folks have toward Bylsma is due to the loss to the Rangers. It may have been the latest example of those concerns, but the loss is hardly the reason for people questioning Bylsma.
I didn't say that outrage and anger toward Bylsma came from the loss. The whole point was that the outrage and anger toward Bylsma was pre-established, which is why every regular season win is dismissed, and every regular season loss is a harbinger of playoff doom.

If you want to say nothing matters until the playoffs, fine. But you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Pens will lose in the playoffs because of a game like the one against the Rangers, and then say the decisive win against the Bruins means nothing because it's the regular season. That's not only selective truth, it's a blatant double-standard.

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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Yeah, this is what bothers me more than anything. Nobody cares about how we've dominated the Bruins and Rangers in the regular season over recent years because if we do as much as lose a game to the Devils on the road the anti-Bylsma rhetoric is out in full force. There is no pleasing anybody until the postseason rolls around, but they can certainly get angry before then.
Exactly.

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11-08-2013, 12:33 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That's pretty rich, when Bylsma critics hypocritically predict playoff doom based on a regular season loss to the Rangers...shortly after proclaiming that regular season wins don't mean anything following a win against the reigning EC champs.

Then there's the current thread topic, which is supported by absolutely nothing but conjecture (the burden of proof apparently doesn't exist), and catalyzed by the first loss in 5 games by the best team in the conference. Oh yeah, if that's not valid evidence to suggest a coach losing his team, I'm not sure what is!
This is boorish.

First, let's agree that each side of this equation has extreme outliers that have no business being included in our sweeping generalizations. When I refer to the two sides of the argument, I am dismissing the people who are so far on either side of the argument that it's likely they are either trolling or were raised in a glue-sniffing factory.

With that out of the way, no one is basing their opinion of this team - or of their coach - on a loss. No one's opinion changes after a win. That right there - that no win or loss affects their opinion - is what's really throwing your mind for a loop.

Yes, the playoffs are all that matter with this group (though you will argue otherwise), but the people who believe that are pointing out the same issues they saw last year. Yes, the same issues they saw last year (and likely the year before) are popping up now.

If the Pens were making the same mistakes they made last year but winning 100% of their games, those people would still have an issue with the team.

Not because they are trolls or because they want to win with style points, but because the same issues continue to plague the team over and over.

Now you (the specific you, RRP, not the general you) will argue that it's not the same issues plaguing the team, that it's only like 1 or 2 early exits and that there is far-too high a standard placed on this team (as far as unrealistic expectations go).

But nothing people with whom you disagree say is based off of one or two games. It is based off of, at least in their minds, a year+ worth of games, and a continuous pattern.

The Penguins, unlike a lot of teams, don't find new ways to lose. They find the same mind-numbingly stupid way to lose.

Now, if your issue is: "the people who say the playoffs are all that matters are pointing out the issues they think will plague them in the playoffs during the regular season", well, that they are. I don't know what to tell you other than... ignore them?

It's not like they are inventing new things. The criticisms are pretty consistent. They aren't changing.

I mean, we could go round-and-round with this for ever. Just like earlier you were all, "Bylsma is changing, look at how he uses younger players!"

If I wanted to ride the merry-go-round, I would just point out that Maatta's playing time likely only occurred because of Letang's injury (to which you'd reply "burden of proof is on you" to which I'd reply: well I guess I'm not going to kidnap Ray Ray and Disco to ask).

And then I would say Top-4 Despres - in WBS. Top-6 Bennett - in the bottom-6 (other than injury). And Megna was, what, their 4th call-up choice?

It's not like Dan Bylsma had some epiphany that youth is good. There literally had to be 4 injuries to the forward group AND a round of suck from Scrabbles and Conner before Megna got that chance. So, yea, you can tell me he's changed, and I... don't care to argue. Because you see the zebras you want to see and I see the horses I want to see.

But if you want to argue, please, do a better job than #FastestTo200 and "It's just one loss, you can't go 82-0"

And if you don't want to, just ignore me/us/we/them and we'll probably eventually shut up/go away.

(by the way, I don't think Bylsma has loss the team. And that's worse)

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11-08-2013, 12:49 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Yes, the playoffs are all that matter with this group (though you will argue otherwise), but the people who believe that are pointing out the same issues they saw last year. Yes, the same issues they saw last year (and likely the year before) are popping up now.
The problem is that they only see the problems that they saw last year, no matter how infrequent they are.

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But nothing people with whom you disagree say is based off of one or two games. It is based off of, at least in their minds, a year+ worth of games, and a continuous pattern.
Except it's not a continuous pattern, because the counter-evidence is conveniently omitted.

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The Penguins, unlike a lot of teams, don't find new ways to lose. They find the same mind-numbingly stupid way to lose.
The Penguins have both won and lost in several different ways this year.

Quote:
Now, if your issue is: "the people who say the playoffs are all that matters are pointing out the issues they think will plague them in the playoffs during the regular season", well, that they are. I don't know what to tell you other than... ignore them?
I was very specific in my criticism. Here it is again:

My issue is that a certain segment of the board say the playoffs are all that matters, then proceed to ignore convincing regular season wins against quality opponents when they don't fit their narrative while holding up regular season losses as evidence of their impending playoff failures. It is a selective truth, and a double standard.

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It's not like they are inventing new things. The criticisms are pretty consistent. They aren't changing.
They certainly are. A poster recently criticized Bylsma for not mixing up Malkin's line when he was having trouble, then when the lines were mixed up, complained that Malkin can't be expected to be successful when his linemates were always changing.

Quote:
I mean, we could go round-and-round with this for ever. Just like earlier you were all, "Bylsma is changing, look at how he uses younger players!"

If I wanted to ride the merry-go-round, I would just point out that Maatta's playing time likely only occurred because of Letang's injury (to which you'd reply "burden of proof is on you" to which I'd reply: well I guess I'm not going to kidnap Ray Ray and Disco to ask).
You can ride that merry-go-round right back to the fact that Bylsma could've used Despres, but chose to keep a junior-aged player and burn a year of his ELC. He literally went as young as he could go when he didn't have to.

Quote:
And then I would say Top-4 Despres - in WBS. Top-6 Bennett - in the bottom-6 (other than injury). And Megna was, what, their 4th call-up choice?
Despres is in WBS because an even younger defenseman took his spot. Bennett was clearly outplayed in the pre-season, but was still getting regular minutes despite being waiver-eligible.

Like I said, the argument has now shifted to griping about TOI and role.

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Old
11-08-2013, 01:24 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Despres is in WBS because an even younger defenseman took his spot. Bennett was clearly outplayed in the pre-season, but was still getting regular minutes despite being waiver-eligible.
I don't care to get involved in this whole debate right now, but I will say that the term 'clearly' is certainly a stretch. I don't think Beau was 'clearly' outplayed. You can say Beau was 'arguably' outplayed, which I can accept that stance although I disagree, but to say 'clearly' is just plain untrue.

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11-08-2013, 02:05 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
For a regular season game, this thread is an overreaction. In an 82 game season, sometimes good teams come out flat and suck against lesser teams. **** happens. I find myself caring less and less about regular season losses. This team will be judged in the playoffs.
Great. Then the thread still applies based on your criteria.

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11-08-2013, 02:10 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by nhindian View Post
Yeah because Crosby is someone who would rather be comfortable than work hard to get better
And Crosby doesn't represent every single player on the team nor does he control their train of thought.
Or would it be better to suggest that Crosby loves him because unlike every one else on the team he gets to pick his linemates and that line won't get changed regardless of if it is best for the team or not?

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11-08-2013, 02:16 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
I agree. I don't think Bylsma deserves much hate for anything that's happened so far this season and that comes from someone that wanted him gone after getting swept by Boston. He has shown some willingness to change and you highlighted some of those changes in your post. It's a step in the right direction.
I can agree with this post. My thoughts as well. He has seemed to make some needed changes for the better. Still, I think after last seasons playoff debacle his fate was sealed for myself. And this thread simply posed the question as to whether or not some of the players might feel the same.

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11-08-2013, 02:20 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
ever notice how the pro-Bylsma crowd deals in nothing but strawmen and red herrings?
Good point.

It's like they didn't read anything but the thread title and assumed what it was about...

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11-08-2013, 02:33 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That's pretty rich, when Bylsma critics hypocritically predict playoff doom based on a regular season loss to the Rangers...shortly after proclaiming that regular season wins don't mean anything following a win against the reigning EC champs.

Then there's the current thread topic, which is supported by absolutely nothing but conjecture (the burden of proof apparently doesn't exist), and catalyzed by the first loss in 5 games by the best team in the conference. Oh yeah, if that's not valid evidence to suggest a coach losing his team, I'm not sure what is!
Wrong. It isn't supported by conjecture. It calls for speculation and conjecture. That is the entire point of asking the question. You're acting as if I posed an absolute, which I certainly did not. If you read my original post which you chastised me for you would find that in no way shape or form did I say anything untrue. Nor did I make any reference to this being about one game. That was actually speculation on your part.

This is, in part about the playoff failures. And the future playoff failure predictions are NOT brought on by ONE game in November. They are brought on by a series of things, including the past playoff failure. The fact that many of those things were present in last nights game doesn't help matters but it is incredibly disingenuous of you to pretend that those who want him gone don't have enough ammo outside of this one game for thinking such. Just as it is disingenuous of you to think that this thread and it's contents only apply because of this one game.
There is an entire history behind this topic as well as reasons for people thinking the team needs a change. If you feel otherwise fine. That's cool. But try not to attack my logic for making this thread based upon your own speculation as to why I made it. Because from what I have seen, based on what you've written in here, you are absolutely wrong.

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11-08-2013, 02:41 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post


No one is basing it on a loss to the Rangers.
As has been stated time and time again in this thread. I guess it would help if people actually read what was being posted rather than click on a thread, assume that they know exactly what has been covered and post based on assumption.

I've read about 10-15 posts which say something like "wow, way to be reactionary. The is over kill based on one loss"... Yet several different places it's been stated clearly that this isn't about ONE SINGLE loss. It wild be lovely to get a concensus discussion based on what this thread should actually be about rather than defensive responses based on what people assume this thread is about.

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11-08-2013, 06:44 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
You can ride that merry-go-round right back to the fact that Bylsma could've used Despres, but chose to keep a junior-aged player and burn a year of his ELC. He literally went as young as he could go when he didn't have to.



Despres is in WBS because an even younger defenseman took his spot. Bennett was clearly outplayed in the pre-season, but was still getting regular minutes despite being waiver-eligible.

Like I said, the argument has now shifted to griping about TOI and role.
I'm going to skip the other stuff, not because it's not important, but because we're literally never going to convince each other of our argument(s).

Despres: outplayed by Maatta. Not outplayed by 5 other guys ahead of him.

Bennett: CLEARLY????? outplayed by Jokinen? Really? I feel like it was 99.9% Bennett's job until Jokinen's hat trick. I think Bennett brings a lot more to that line than Jokinen does, and showed that in the preseason.

Bennett is never going to score an NHL hat trick, preseason or otherwise. If that's what we're expecting from him, he's never going to crack the top-6.

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11-08-2013, 06:59 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by stardog View Post
As has been stated time and time again in this thread. I guess it would help if people actually read what was being posted rather than click on a thread, assume that they know exactly what has been covered and post based on assumption.

I've read about 10-15 posts which say something like "wow, way to be reactionary. The is over kill based on one loss"... Yet several different places it's been stated clearly that this isn't about ONE SINGLE loss. It wild be lovely to get a concensus discussion based on what this thread should actually be about rather than defensive responses based on what people assume this thread is about.
Yes, it would be nice if we could just have that discussion. Then again, I'm sure the people on the other side of the fence think the same of us.

My 2 cents: I don't think the team has tuned him out. I think they like him, I think they respond to him. I just think, from top-to-bottom, they are a bit ... I hate to say mentally weak, but none of them respond well to adversity. Not a one.

They were playing well for the first 17 minutes of period one. Things didn't go their way. Meltdown ensues. Not like they couldn't overcome a 2-goal deficit against the Rangers, but why bother trying when we could just be kids about it?

Anyhow, I wish they were tuning him out. It would oddly make me feel better about the team. But they aren't (imo).

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11-08-2013, 07:13 AM
  #114
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I think we need to put things in perspective.... just look at philly.


Yeah they are going to suck now and again, they are going to make moves that we're not going to like, but no ones ever going to agree 100%.



I do agree with most of the complaints, but really we're pretty spoiled.

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11-08-2013, 07:16 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
This is boorish.

First, let's agree that each side of this equation has extreme outliers that have no business being included in our sweeping generalizations. When I refer to the two sides of the argument, I am dismissing the people who are so far on either side of the argument that it's likely they are either trolling or were raised in a glue-sniffing factory.

With that out of the way, no one is basing their opinion of this team - or of their coach - on a loss. No one's opinion changes after a win. That right there - that no win or loss affects their opinion - is what's really throwing your mind for a loop.

Yes, the playoffs are all that matter with this group (though you will argue otherwise), but the people who believe that are pointing out the same issues they saw last year. Yes, the same issues they saw last year (and likely the year before) are popping up now.

If the Pens were making the same mistakes they made last year but winning 100% of their games, those people would still have an issue with the team.

Not because they are trolls or because they want to win with style points, but because the same issues continue to plague the team over and over.

Now you (the specific you, RRP, not the general you) will argue that it's not the same issues plaguing the team, that it's only like 1 or 2 early exits and that there is far-too high a standard placed on this team (as far as unrealistic expectations go).

But nothing people with whom you disagree say is based off of one or two games. It is based off of, at least in their minds, a year+ worth of games, and a continuous pattern.

The Penguins, unlike a lot of teams, don't find new ways to lose. They find the same mind-numbingly stupid way to lose.

Now, if your issue is: "the people who say the playoffs are all that matters are pointing out the issues they think will plague them in the playoffs during the regular season", well, that they are. I don't know what to tell you other than... ignore them?

It's not like they are inventing new things. The criticisms are pretty consistent. They aren't changing.

I mean, we could go round-and-round with this for ever. Just like earlier you were all, "Bylsma is changing, look at how he uses younger players!"

If I wanted to ride the merry-go-round, I would just point out that Maatta's playing time likely only occurred because of Letang's injury (to which you'd reply "burden of proof is on you" to which I'd reply: well I guess I'm not going to kidnap Ray Ray and Disco to ask).

And then I would say Top-4 Despres - in WBS. Top-6 Bennett - in the bottom-6 (other than injury). And Megna was, what, their 4th call-up choice?

It's not like Dan Bylsma had some epiphany that youth is good. There literally had to be 4 injuries to the forward group AND a round of suck from Scrabbles and Conner before Megna got that chance. So, yea, you can tell me he's changed, and I... don't care to argue. Because you see the zebras you want to see and I see the horses I want to see.

But if you want to argue, please, do a better job than #FastestTo200 and "It's just one loss, you can't go 82-0"

And if you don't want to, just ignore me/us/we/them and we'll probably eventually shut up/go away.

(by the way, I don't think Bylsma has loss the team. And that's worse)
This post should either be stickied at the top of every +/- thread or made to be your permanent signature. Not sure if you could have explained 'it' any more clearly. {cue that Faith No More Song}

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11-08-2013, 08:28 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Shwag33 View Post
I think we need to put things in perspective.... just look at philly.


Yeah they are going to suck now and again, they are going to make moves that we're not going to like, but no ones ever going to agree 100%.



I do agree with most of the complaints, but really we're pretty spoiled.
Why should we compare the Pens to that **** fest in Philly?

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11-08-2013, 10:36 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
This is boorish.

First, let's agree that each side of this equation has extreme outliers that have no business being included in our sweeping generalizations. When I refer to the two sides of the argument, I am dismissing the people who are so far on either side of the argument that it's likely they are either trolling or were raised in a glue-sniffing factory.

With that out of the way, no one is basing their opinion of this team - or of their coach - on a loss. No one's opinion changes after a win. That right there - that no win or loss affects their opinion - is what's really throwing your mind for a loop.

Yes, the playoffs are all that matter with this group (though you will argue otherwise), but the people who believe that are pointing out the same issues they saw last year. Yes, the same issues they saw last year (and likely the year before) are popping up now.

If the Pens were making the same mistakes they made last year but winning 100% of their games, those people would still have an issue with the team.

Not because they are trolls or because they want to win with style points, but because the same issues continue to plague the team over and over.

Now you (the specific you, RRP, not the general you) will argue that it's not the same issues plaguing the team, that it's only like 1 or 2 early exits and that there is far-too high a standard placed on this team (as far as unrealistic expectations go).

But nothing people with whom you disagree say is based off of one or two games. It is based off of, at least in their minds, a year+ worth of games, and a continuous pattern.

The Penguins, unlike a lot of teams, don't find new ways to lose. They find the same mind-numbingly stupid way to lose.

Now, if your issue is: "the people who say the playoffs are all that matters are pointing out the issues they think will plague them in the playoffs during the regular season", well, that they are. I don't know what to tell you other than... ignore them?

It's not like they are inventing new things. The criticisms are pretty consistent. They aren't changing.

I mean, we could go round-and-round with this for ever. Just like earlier you were all, "Bylsma is changing, look at how he uses younger players!"

If I wanted to ride the merry-go-round, I would just point out that Maatta's playing time likely only occurred because of Letang's injury (to which you'd reply "burden of proof is on you" to which I'd reply: well I guess I'm not going to kidnap Ray Ray and Disco to ask).

And then I would say Top-4 Despres - in WBS. Top-6 Bennett - in the bottom-6 (other than injury). And Megna was, what, their 4th call-up choice?

It's not like Dan Bylsma had some epiphany that youth is good. There literally had to be 4 injuries to the forward group AND a round of suck from Scrabbles and Conner before Megna got that chance. So, yea, you can tell me he's changed, and I... don't care to argue. Because you see the zebras you want to see and I see the horses I want to see.

But if you want to argue, please, do a better job than #FastestTo200 and "It's just one loss, you can't go 82-0"

And if you don't want to, just ignore me/us/we/them and we'll probably eventually shut up/go away.

(by the way, I don't think Bylsma has loss the team. And that's worse)
Great post IC.

I see the same pattern in these games that I have for the past few years and I've seen how that turns out in the POs. Nothing I've seen has made me think that DB will be successful in the POs with this team.

IMO, the main diff between me and RRP is what "successful" means. If you remember from his "Supposed PO Embarassment" thread, he considers what the pens have done in the past 4 years a success. I guess some just have higher expectations for this team than others.

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11-08-2013, 10:54 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Why should we compare the Pens to that **** fest in Philly?
Not only that, but the Philly situation is completely off-topic. Keep it to stuff regarding how the team is responding to Bylsma / what Bylsma is doing.

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11-08-2013, 11:13 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Bennett is never going to score an NHL hat trick, preseason or otherwise. If that's what we're expecting from him, he's never going to crack the top-6.
Awesome post, coffee-lover, but I just wanted to highlight the above. Beau Bennett can and will score a hat-trick in the NHL. A hat-trick is a random occurrence but he has the talent (and eventually SHOULD have the right linemates) to pull this off.

I think what's laughable is that he lost the job because of a preseason hat-trick. Especially to a guy with a HISTORY of inconsistency in his game. There's a reason why teams continue to part ways with Jussi Jokinen. He always leaves you wanting more.



The thing about this Penguins team, and the pattern I see, is that we jump out of the gate very strongly early on. That is largely because a) we have more continuity than most teams after training camps are over, and b) Bylsma's whole coaching philosophy is to be front-runners. Get to our game early, jump into the lead early and often, and then ride out the storm. This is what we do. Over and over and over again.

But as the season moves along, teams catch up to us. Their younger players become comfortable. The other teams' systems get figured out by their players, and they start to mesh. We, on the other hand, PEAK TOO EARLY. Since winning the Stanley Cup in 2009, we can pick a particular game around mid-season usually as being our absolute BEST game of that particular season. It's never been in the playoffs. I don't think it's ever really been late in the regular season, either.

This is why I promote change. This is why I feel this team needs a reset button. This is why I think this team needs to see what it has in a great number of young assets. When you give people the opportunity in October, you have a much better idea of what you have in February, and then later on in April.

Now, kudos to the whole regime for handling the Olli Maatta situation properly (for a change). Hopefully, they don't screw that up. But this team needs to know what they have in Beau Bennett, in Simon Despres, hell it's probably too late for Dustin Jeffrey, but maybe Jayson Megna can become our new Tyler Kennedy on the third line. These are things we need to find out.

Instead, we're trying to find out if FIFTH liners like Tanner Glass and Craig Adams can be third liners. We're not touching AT ALL the first line. We're not experimenting with Letang's defense partner with Scuderi out, simply inserting Niskanen there based almost exclusively on seniority...ignoring skill-sets and chemistry, OBVIOUSLY.

So if I'm negative this season, it's because the last four seasons have brought about this feeling. Not because I LOVE being this way.

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11-08-2013, 11:20 AM
  #120
Shwag33
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Why should we compare the Pens to that **** fest in Philly?


Because we have a thread on if the pens are tuning the coach out after we won 4 out of 5.


Need to put things in perspective.

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11-08-2013, 11:28 AM
  #121
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by Shwag33 View Post
Because we have a thread on if the pens are tuning the coach out after we won 4 out of 5.


Need to put things in perspective.
It's convenient to say we won 4 of 5. I could turn around and say we've only won 4 of 8.

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11-08-2013, 11:43 AM
  #122
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http://triblive.com/mobile/5017774-9...s-neal-playing

We're not making it up. Even the coal miners see that the team loses their minds when they get down after playing well early. As much as it annoys me that Glass' opinion even matters.

Until they buck that trend, stardog has every right to make threads like these.

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11-08-2013, 11:58 AM
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It's convenient to say we won 4 of 5. I could turn around and say we've only won 4 of 8.


How about were 11-5?

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11-08-2013, 12:09 PM
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How about were 11-5?
THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR RECORD.

IT'S ABOUT THE TEAM MELTING DOWN WHEN FACED WITH ADVERSITY.



ok?

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11-08-2013, 12:38 PM
  #125
cheesedanish87
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THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR RECORD.

IT'S ABOUT THE TEAM MELTING DOWN WHEN FACED WITH ADVERSITY.



ok?
I dunno where you get that from, They faced adversity in the playoffs last year, MAF blew up in the playoffs and they were in a 2-2 series against NYI, pens came back and won game 5 and 6.

After losing a heartbreaking game 3 against the Sens when the pens managed to give up a short handed goal in the final minute of the game, pens came back and blew out the Sens in game 4 and 5

After the pens got blown out by Boston in game 2 they came back played a great game 3, but couldn't beat Rask.

I don't think the pens have a problem with facing adversity, if they did i wouldn't blame the coach, i'd blame the leadership in the room, Sid, Geno, Kunitz, Orpik.

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