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Flyers want Bobby Ryan predicted at 4th what would it take to trade up for Minns spot

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Old
07-23-2005, 11:30 AM
  #51
Wisent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear
Is this a good trade?

Flyers get: 4th overall

Minnesota gets: 20th overall, Patrict Sharp, Michael Handzus, Michael Richards
Flyers get the 4th
Minnesota gets Pitkanen and the 20th

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Old
07-23-2005, 11:32 AM
  #52
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If the Flyers want Ryan, they will have to move Carter. In fact, if Clarke wants Ryan as much as I heard he does, whatever team he trades to move up with will try and rob him blind.

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07-23-2005, 11:33 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBob
Keep telling yourself that
You don't think the Flyers made out well in the deal? Yeah Fedotenko really helped Tampa win the cup, but aside from that one year he has been pretty unspecacular.

Granted I like him as a player but I think Pitkanen will be around much longer and make a bigger impact over his Flyers career.

Yeah the trade bit the Flyers back last year but to say it wasn't a good deal or they wouldn't do it again is absurd.

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07-23-2005, 11:34 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisent
Flyers get the 4th
Minnesota gets Pitkanen and the 20th
The Wild would need to throw in some KY for Clarke on that one too.

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07-23-2005, 11:37 AM
  #55
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I'd love the Habs to trade their pick for carter.

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Old
07-23-2005, 11:38 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisent
Flyers get the 4th
Minnesota gets Pitkanen and the 20th
I wouldnt even do Pitkanen for the 4th, never mind throwing in the 20th.

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Old
07-23-2005, 11:44 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Steve L
I wouldnt even do Pitkanen for the 4th, never mind throwing in the 20th.
It's like, "We'll give you the 20th pick for you giving us the pleasure of taking the best defensive prospect in the world off our hands". ***


*** People would argue if it's JBo or Pitkanen, and some might even through Phaneuf into the mix, but it's one of them. And either way you can't really expect the 4th overall pick to yeild anything better then that. Especially since Pitkanen is just now ready to take on a major role on a good team and the few years of waiting for a young dmen to come around are basically ending.

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07-23-2005, 11:49 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratfinklives
You don't think the Flyers made out well in the deal? Yeah Fedotenko really helped Tampa win the cup, but aside from that one year he has been pretty unspecacular.

Granted I like him as a player but I think Pitkanen will be around much longer and make a bigger impact over his Flyers career.

Yeah the trade bit the Flyers back last year but to say it wasn't a good deal or they wouldn't do it again is absurd.
I actually thought the poster was saying Tampa made out as well as Philly in the deal, which is a joke IMO. Flyers got the much better deal.

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Old
07-23-2005, 11:53 AM
  #59
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I keep getting a feeling that Clark (because he likes RYan so much) would offer something like the following (to say Minny).

Richards + Philly 1st for Minnys 1st. I mean Richards isn't truly needed with Handzs and upcoming Carter and Umberger.

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07-23-2005, 11:56 AM
  #60
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Some people on these boards really are wacked. Carter, Richards, Pitkanen are all NHL players this season. As mentioned Pitkanen is a top 5 D prospect world wide. Carter is one of the top 5 Canadian prospects. And Richards is a top 10-15 Canadian prospect.

People are forgetting what Carter and Richards did in the World Juniors, especially Carter's performances. And did anyone outside of Flyers fans pay attention to the AHL playoffs? Carter was leading scoring and Richards was right up there too playing even fewer games.

Anyone suggesting one of Pitkanen or Carter for a draft pick other than 1st overall is way off and even Richards is debatable. Those suggesting one of the 3 PLUS anything else are foolish. If Clarke decides to make a trade like that, I'm done as a Flyers fan.

Again, WHY would the Flyers take a step back with a younger, non-NHL ready prospect?

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07-23-2005, 11:58 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
I keep getting a feeling that Clark (because he likes RYan so much) would offer something like the following (to say Minny).

Richards + Philly 1st for Minnys 1st. I mean Richards isn't truly needed with Handzs and upcoming Carter and Umberger.
Clarke likes Ryan... but the organization LOVES Richards and Carter. look at our coach, do you really think Hitch isn't salivating at the thought of getting his hands on Richards? guy is like the prototype Hitchcock player... perfect for his system of defensive responsibility, paired with good offensive play.

we will not be trading Richards or Carter.

and to the poster suggesting teams will attempt to rob Clarke in a deal for Ryan... keep dreaming, he rarely makes bad trades. the only two that really stick out are the Oates deal and the Gratton deal.

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07-23-2005, 11:59 AM
  #62
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Trading both #20 AND Richards for #4 make ZERO sense, I can't believe people are even suggesting it.

Richards is a proven commodity, he was simply great in AHL play-offs, had superb OHL season and generally played extremely well last year.

Now why on earth would Flyers give him AND a #20 pick in a deep draft for a pick which might not even get them Ryan (who's much, much more unproven than Richards)?

This has been said many times but people here are like kids who ditch all their old toys the second they have a chance to get a new toy which might not be any better than the old ones.

Flyers do well to keep their pick and get one of the many good players available at #20.

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07-23-2005, 12:21 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
I keep getting a feeling that Clark (because he likes RYan so much) would offer something like the following (to say Minny).

Richards + Philly 1st for Minnys 1st. I mean Richards isn't truly needed with Handzs and upcoming Carter and Umberger.
Id prefer Richards + 20th pick than Ryan.

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Old
07-23-2005, 12:27 PM
  #64
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Wow, it's really getting rediculous how overrated Richards and Carter are on this board.

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Old
07-23-2005, 12:28 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
All 3 guys have shown they are capable of moving onto the next level, trading them for someone unproven would be totally mad.

I know being 20 makes players past it in a lot of HF posters minds but this is rediculous.
Oh really? How many NHL goals did Richards and Carter have at "the next level" (i.e., the NHL) last year?

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07-23-2005, 12:33 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
He's worth a lot more than the 4th pick in the second round. Way not to over do it.
I should have known that there would be a poster out there who was not intellectually capable of following a little sarcasm.

I didn't say Hanzdus could only return a 2nd rounder. My point was a second rounder was closer to reality than the 4th overall.

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07-23-2005, 12:36 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Wow, it's really getting rediculous how overrated Richards and Carter are on this board.

Yeah I know. They were just the two best fowards in the AHL playoffs. Carter was All-Tournement at the World Juniors and Richards the Capt of the gold medal team. Richards just basically carried his team in the OHL playoffs as far as it could go.

Overrated clearly.

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Old
07-23-2005, 12:37 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donelikedinner
ok, ok, but not much more than 4th pick 2005 = Handzus + Sharp and maybe a 3rd in 2005
Handzus is simply not that good. He has been a fine #2/#3 center for his entire career. He gets traded to Philly, has a nice year, and you guys start talking about him like he was some elite #1 center. Add the impact of the new CBA (with cheap youth valued over UFA age forwards), and the situation becomes even more unrealistic.

Handzus is not going to be the principal in a deal for a top five pick, especially in a top heavy draft and especially with the current CBA.

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07-23-2005, 12:41 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I should have known that there would be a poster out there who was not intellectually capable of following a little sarcasm.

I didn't say Hanzdus could only return a 2nd rounder. My point was a second rounder was closer to reality than the 4th overall.

No it's. You want to go look at the 4th overall picks last 15 years and tell me which one's have turned out better then Handzus? There's about 2 or 3 of them. Not good odds to get a player better then him at that pick.

Hell, look at his draft year and in a do-over he might go 4th overall himself. And that's with the do-over factor which takes the gamble of the pick away.

If even you wanted to say he's not worth the 4th overall pick (and not a chance in hell would I trade a guy in his prime proven to be a 40-50 point guy while playing Selke quality D and being as versitile as he is for the 4th overall pick), he's certainly a lot closer in value to the 4th overall then the 4th pick in Rnd two.

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07-23-2005, 12:46 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Handzus is simply not that good. He has been a fine #2/#3 center for his entire career. He gets traded to Philly, has a nice year, and you guys start talking about him like he was some elite #1 center. Add the impact of the new CBA (with cheap youth valued over UFA age forwards), and the situation becomes even more unrealistic.

Handzus is not going to be the principal in a deal for a top five pick, especially in a top heavy draft and especially with the current CBA.
You're just off buddy.

Before the injury he was talked about in higher regard then he is now.

He had two years in a row of 44 points before upgrading slightly last year with 58 points.

Seriously, you tell me what the chances of getting a player better then him with the 4th overall pick with. I'll give you a hint, it's not even close to 50/50. You call him a #2/#3.

I guess you'd like to list the 30-60 centers in the league better then him, right?

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07-23-2005, 12:48 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper

Richards is a proven commodity, he was simply great in AHL play-offs, had superb OHL season and generally played extremely well last year.
Ryan is JUST as proven as Richards in terms on NHL play....the reason I even suggested it is because the team is stellar down the middle but lacking on the wings when compared to the wings..this would basically be a flip. Plus Ryan has upside to be a top line player...Richards does not at this point..maybe a 2nd line center at best but that is all.

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07-23-2005, 12:54 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Ryan is JUST as proven as Richards in terms on NHL play....the reason I even suggested it is because the team is stellar down the middle but lacking on the wings when compared to the wings..this would basically be a flip. Plus Ryan has upside to be a top line player...Richards does not at this point..maybe a 2nd line center at best but that is all.
Ryan has yet to play a professional game, nor did he lead a team to the Gold Medal in the WJC... so he isn't even close to JUST as proven as Richardss in terms of NHL play... not even close. go and look at Richards stats in the AHL playoffs, friggin amazing what he stepped in with ZERO experience on the team and did... was their top PK'er, got a lot of PP time, and if not for Carter would have been their best 5-on-5 player.

Richards upside is as a two-way center, which is so much more ridiculously valuable than a top-line winger (unless we are talking Jagr or something, aka someone that will single-handedly be capable of carrying a team offensively) it isn't funny.

If they were the same draft year, then it would make sense... but they aren't. Richards has two more years of seasoning and is probably going to step right into the NHL and be ready to play... it will be surprising if Ryan is.

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07-23-2005, 01:06 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidrage
You're just off buddy.

Before the injury he was talked about in higher regard then he is now.

He had two years in a row of 44 points before upgrading slightly last year with 58 points.

Seriously, you tell me what the chances of getting a player better then him with the 4th overall pick with. I'll give you a hint, it's not even close to 50/50. You call him a #2/#3.

I guess you'd like to list the 30-60 centers in the league better then him, right?
Here are the 15 4th overall selections 1990 - 2004 an my opinion.

2004: Andrew Ladd ? Michal Handzus
2003: Nikolai Zherdev > Michal Handzus
2002: Joni Pitkanen > Michal Handzus
2001: Stephen Weiss ? Michal Handzus
2000: Rostislav Klesla > Michal Handzus
1999: Pavel Brendl < Michal Handzus
1998: Bryan Allen < Michal Handzus
1997: Roberto Loungo > Michal Handzus
1996: Alexandre Volchkov < Michal Handzus
1995: Chad Kilger < Michal Handzus
1994: Jason Bonsignore < Michal Handzus
1993: Paul Kariya > Michal Handzus
1992: Todd Warriner < Michal Handzus
1991: Scott Lachance < Michal Handzus
1990: Mike Ricci > Michal Handzus

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07-23-2005, 01:11 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Ryan is JUST as proven as Richards in terms on NHL play....the reason I even suggested it is because the team is stellar down the middle but lacking on the wings when compared to the wings..this would basically be a flip. Plus Ryan has upside to be a top line player...Richards does not at this point..maybe a 2nd line center at best but that is all.
Ryan is miles away behind Richards at this point, Richards has proved himself on so many levels from OHL regular season to playoffs to WJC to AHL playoffs that he's currently in totally different league than Ryan.

Sorry, Richards value is just higher than Ryan's at the moment.

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07-23-2005, 01:11 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonde 007
Here are the 15 4th overall selections 1990 - 2004 an my opinion.

2004: Andrew Ladd ? Michal Handzus
2003: Nikolai Zherdev > Michal Handzus
2002: Joni Pitkanen > Michal Handzus
2001: Stephen Weiss ? Michal Handzus
2000: Rostislav Klesla > Michal Handzus
1999: Pavel Brendl < Michal Handzus
1998: Bryan Allen < Michal Handzus
1997: Roberto Loungo > Michal Handzus
1996: Alexandre Volchkov < Michal Handzus
1995: Chad Kilger < Michal Handzus
1994: Jason Bonsignore < Michal Handzus
1993: Paul Kariya > Michal Handzus
1992: Todd Warriner < Michal Handzus
1991: Scott Lachance < Michal Handzus
1990: Mike Ricci > Michal Handzus
I would severely argue with you about Klesla.
One day, maybe, but not even close right now. And because that one day is a maybe you can't really do the >.

I'd say you just don't count those and switch Klesla to a ?
And to be honest same with Pitkanen. He's a ?

I'd say it's pretty safe to do a < Zherdev now. Is he actually better right now? No. But he showed enough to risk wise on a trade, Zherdev is worth more.

I think you basically take all the recent one's and do a ? with.

But as I said, clearly Handzus is better and has been better then your typical #4 overall draft pick. And your list shows it.

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