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Hey Torts, Why again did you Rarely use McD on the PP?

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Old
11-11-2013, 10:00 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Fanned On It View Post
How on Earth is Duncan Keith overrated? Have you watched the guy play? He's the best 2-way D in the game IMO. Can't say much about Petro because I haven't watched him much.
He is not the best two way dman. He's fantastic offensively and one of the best skaters in the league but he's not as good as Suter, Chara or Pietrangelo defensively. I'd say one of those three is the best two way dman. And honestly I think even Chara is slightly overrated defensively just because of how big he is, he's got a ridiculous wing span of course he's good at poke checks and such!

McDonagh is on his way to becoming one of the top two way dmen in the league though, he's already there defensively and he can skate with the best of them, happy to see AV give him a chance on the PP it's been working out.

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11-11-2013, 10:23 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Fanned On It View Post
How on Earth is Duncan Keith overrated? Have you watched the guy play? He's the best 2-way D in the game IMO. Can't say much about Petro because I haven't watched him much.
I have watched the guy play and he is suspect in his zone. He's great once the puck starts moving towards the other team's net. However, except in spurts he loses alot of puck battles, tries alot of slick things in his own zone and generally, makes too many mistakes in defensive situations for a guy with his reputation; hence overrated.

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11-11-2013, 10:29 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
I have watched the guy play and he is suspect in his zone. He's great once the puck starts moving towards the other team's net. However, except in spurts he loses alot of puck battles, tries alot of slick things in his own zone and generally, makes too many mistakes in defensive situations for a guy with his reputation; hence overrated.
Are you going to mention that McDonagh's defensive play has slipped at the expense of adding more offense to his game?

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11-11-2013, 10:37 AM
  #104
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Are you going to mention that McDonagh's defensive play has slipped at the expense of adding more offense to his game?
I think the entire D's game has slipped...to blame McD's issues on his adding more offense is a bit of hyperbole no?

If he were constantly getting beat on a pinch are caught deep in the O zone I would agree with you, but I can't recall any of those things happening, but my memory ain't what it used to be, however if those things have happened I would be willing to bet they have been rare occasions.

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11-11-2013, 10:38 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Are you going to mention that McDonagh's defensive play has slipped at the expense of adding more offense to his game?
Can you back that up with anything?

I don't see McDonagh doing anything offensively that's hurting his defensive game...he's not turning the puck over a ton in bad spots, he's not getting caught up ice, etc. If there's one area my eye check says he is struggling it's defending the crease and that seems to be something that the Rangers struggle a bit with in general when things start scrambling around in front (defensemen never seem to be facing the right way to find the puck and forwards dont' get there in time)

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11-11-2013, 10:39 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
I think the entire D's game has slipped...to blame McD's issues on his adding more offense is a bit of hyperbole no?

If he were constantly getting beat on a pinch are caught deep in the O zone I would agree with you, but I can't recall any of those things happening, but my memory ain't what it used to be, however if those things have happened I would be willing to bet they have been rare occasions.
Hyperbole? No. Its the expected give and take that comes along with the game.

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11-11-2013, 10:41 AM
  #107
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Can you back that up with anything?

I don't see McDonagh doing anything offensively that's hurting his defensive game...he's not turning the puck over a ton in bad spots, he's not getting caught up ice, etc. If there's one area my eye check says he is struggling it's defending the crease and that seems to be something that the Rangers struggle a bit with in general when things start scrambling around in front (defensemen never seem to be facing the right way to find the puck and forwards dont' get there in time)
Hes also gotten beaten on the rush more times this season than I've seen in his first couple of seasons combined.

Im not complaining about it. Net/net hes still as an effective player as ever, but lets not act that his defensive game has suffered a bit along with producing more offense. Its just the way it goes.

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11-11-2013, 10:42 AM
  #108
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^^^ - don't see how that has anything to do with his offensive game though? It's not some balancing act that no matter what happens if you add offense you lose defense...getting beat to the outside doesn't seem to have any relation to him trying to play a more offensive game

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Hyperbole? No. Its the expected give and take that comes along with the game.
No but you need to back it up with something...you need to define whether it's correlation or causation and back that up with something other than a flippant statement as well

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11-11-2013, 10:44 AM
  #109
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Tortorella said his PP in VAN sucked again. What does he expect when he attaches himself to Sullivan? I read a comment by Tortorella about Sullivan early in the season. It pissed him off that Sullivan wasn't a head coach in the NHL. Good. They have the Sedin twins. Kesler. Edler. Garrison. They can't blame the personnel.

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11-11-2013, 10:47 AM
  #110
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Tortorella said his PP in VAN sucked again. What does he expect when he attaches himself to Sullivan? I read a comment by Tortorella about Sullivan early in the season. It pissed him off that Sullivan wasn't a head coach in the NHL. Good. They have the Sedin twins. Kesler. Edler. Garrison. They can't blame the personnel.
To be fair it sucked last year under AV as well

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11-11-2013, 10:50 AM
  #111
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^^^ - don't see how that has anything to do with his offensive game though? It's not some balancing act that no matter what happens if you add offense you lose defense...getting beat to the outside doesn't seem to have any relation to him trying to play a more offensive game



No but you need to back it up with something...you need to define whether it's correlation or causation and back that up with something other than a flippant statement as well
I dont get what you are asking for - seems like common sense to me that if you're pushing the back-end to be more involved in the offense, there is going to be collateral damage on the defensive end. You havent noticed more and more games turning into track meets?

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11-11-2013, 10:52 AM
  #112
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Hyperbole? No. Its the expected give and take that comes along with the game.
Unless you can cite specific examples of him getting caught up ice or making a bad pinch that led to an odd man rush...then it is hyperbole...

He's getting less ice time so far this season than his historicals so his improved offensive game isn't extra minutes...through last night

amongst all dmen here is McD's rank so far

TOI- 43rd
TOI/G -40
ES TOI/G -59

2013 full season rank for McD

TOI - 16
TOI/G -23
ES TOI/G -3

2011-2012

TOI -10
TOI/G -15
ES TOI/G -4

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11-11-2013, 10:56 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Hes also gotten beaten on the rush more times this season than I've seen in his first couple of seasons combined.

Im not complaining about it. Net/net hes still as an effective player as ever, but lets not act that his defensive game has suffered a bit along with producing more offense. Its just the way it goes.
Cause and effect needs evidence...it's like saying you are responsible for the sun because you get up and the sun is shining therefore you are the reason teh sun is shining

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11-11-2013, 11:24 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Are you going to mention that McDonagh's defensive play has slipped at the expense of adding more offense to his game?
Why? We are discussing Keith. But since you bring it up, the entire D is adjusting to the man on man system and has made more gaffes in the D zone than in past years. I don't think it has anything to do with him adding more offense. He almost never gets caught when trying to create offense. Communication has to improve but it is getting better as we move along.

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11-11-2013, 11:33 AM
  #115
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To be fair it sucked last year under AV as well
The Rangers PP doesn't suck this season after it sucked for years. The Canucks PP was good last season when Kesler was in the lineup. He missed time with a broken foot in the 48 game season after he spent the previous off season recovering from shoulder and wrist surgeries. Kesler is 100% this season and playing his best hockey since 10-11. I watched VAN play LA on Saturday night and the 3rd period of the game last night in Anaheim. Tortorella had had sour puss look on his face. Priceless.

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11-11-2013, 11:38 AM
  #116
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Theres several reasons the PP has improved, and McDonagh is a big piece. Richards reverting back to a player capable of making quick decisions has helped too.

Beyond personnel, fundamentals have been brought back into the PP. Theres always a guy in front, theres always players moving - nothing is stagnant. Good job by the new staff on this one.

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11-11-2013, 11:43 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Theres several reasons the PP has improved, and McDonagh is a big piece. Richards reverting back to a player capable of making quick decisions has helped too.

Beyond personnel, fundamentals have been brought back into the PP. Theres always a guy in front, theres always players moving - nothing is stagnant. Good job by the new staff on this one.
Yep, McDonagh's ability to move on the blue-line is a big factor. Lateral movement is a great way to get shots through.

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11-11-2013, 11:48 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Theres several reasons the PP has improved, and McDonagh is a big piece. Richards reverting back to a player capable of making quick decisions has helped too.

Beyond personnel, fundamentals have been brought back into the PP. Theres always a guy in front, theres always players moving - nothing is stagnant. Good job by the new staff on this one.
I feel like you and Drew throw in a post like this from time to time just to **** with people.

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11-11-2013, 11:51 AM
  #119
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I feel like you and Drew throw in a post like this from time to time just to **** with people.
Its more entertaining and thought provoking to discuss the negative - at least thats how I feel. Instead of painting me as some sort of all-encompassing hater, its better to assume that if I dont talk about something regularly, Im pretty happy with it.

Like the power play, or Lundqvist, or the defensive personnel, etc.

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11-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #120
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His defensive game 5v5 has seemingly declined, but it is most likely due to Girardi being absolutely awful this season.

Look at these figures (5v5, adjusted for zone starts):

McD with Girardi: Corsi for per 20: 14.07, Against: 22.05 (38.9%)
Without: CF20: 23.66, CA20: 15.54 (60.4%)

Last year he was 51% with Girardi and 55% without.

It is a fact that we are being outplayed like the Sabres or Leafs when McD-Girardi are on the ice. We need to break them up.

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11-11-2013, 12:25 PM
  #121
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The above is an object lesson in stats being misleading when applied to D.

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11-11-2013, 12:30 PM
  #122
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The above is an object lesson in stats being misleading when applied to D.
How are they misleading? Even if there were big situational differences that could contextualize the stats, no context can explain away a difference that big.

38.9% is unacceptable even if you play against a line of Malkin-Crosby-Datsyuk all night every night.

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11-11-2013, 12:34 PM
  #123
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Girardis been on the ice for something like 5 or 6 ESGA in the last 12 games.

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11-11-2013, 12:43 PM
  #124
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Nice try. The PP is the head coach's responsibility even if he delegates the tactical decision making to an assistant coach. Torts scares players into choking their stick (no pun intended) and playing overly defensive.
It was made pretty clear to start the season in VAN that Gulutzan was in charge of the PP. Head coaches delegate responsibilities and coaching duties to assistant coaches. These boards were clamoring for a PP coach last year. Well, Torts seems to have capitulated/adjusted and allowed one in VAN. Just because that doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean it makes it any less relevant in the context I brought it up.

Ultimately, I agree with you. Head coaches are responsible for every part of a team's play. And if a PP is consistently awful over long stretches, there is a point where the head coach needs to step in and work on trying to fix it. I think Torts failed to do this with NYR; it was one of a few beefs I had with him (despite thinking, overall, that he was a good coach). Thus far, things haven't worked in VAN with regard to their PP either, but we'll see how things work out for them in the long run.

That said, the broader point of my post - which you seem to have missed - is why the **** does this thread have to be about Torts? Does everything really need to be brought back to him? Instead of talking about whether we like McD on the point on the PP or not, a number of posters can't help to bring up a former coach. Get over it; you got what you wanted - he is gone. Move along and talk about something that matters.

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It's who he has become. And it's no coincidence that our PP is flourishing with the same personnel he had at his disposal (minus Rick friggin' Nash) and theirs is 26th.
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I'm sorry that you feel he was doing a good job in that last year and a half but he wasn't and it's all starting to become obvious. Zucc and CK would never have played this well under the iron first of Torts the Clown; never. And guess what, we haven't given up more than 2 goals in 9 games without employing 6 goalies.
8 of the Rangers' last 12 games have been against some pretty ****** teams. That the PP has been mediocre to good, that players like Zucc and Kreider have been able to put up points, and that the defense finally got its **** together - primarily against sub .500 teams - does not impress me. In this good stretch of games, this team has shown some flashes of things to be pretty excited about (what you've mentioned + actually showing some emotion and fire in their game).

But it has also shown flashes of some warning signs that indicate to me we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Even against ****** teams, the team and individual players' defensive games are still not where they should be in my opinion, and are far too shaky. I don't have confidence in this offense to continue to put up the #s they have recently to make up for any defensive deficiencies moving forward. I don't expect Hagelin to maintain a shooting percentage near 30 %. I don't expect Callahan to finish the season with an almost 25 % shooting percentage. Nor do I expect Hank and Talbot to sustain the combined 0.935 save percentage that they have over the last 12 games (which includes, and is dragged down by, Hank's stinker against NJ). These things (and the fact that they are still only 9-8) indicate to me that this team isn't exactly poised to outperform their last two seasons' endings. They will make the playoffs and will do fine, but don't seem like a legitimate cup contender yet.

So far, your points are both fair for you to make from the the team's and players' short term play. We'll see if it stays that way. I hope the team proves me wrong at the end of the season and in the postseason, but I'm not convinced yet.


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Old
11-11-2013, 12:47 PM
  #125
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Its more entertaining and thought provoking to discuss the negative - at least thats how I feel. Instead of painting me as some sort of all-encompassing hater, its better to assume that if I dont talk about something regularly, Im pretty happy with it.

Like the power play, or Lundqvist, or the defensive personnel, etc.
I fall in that trap too, where I only discuss the negative sometimes. That said entertaining for whom? No one likes people that are always negative. Maybe entertaining for you.

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