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Old
11-08-2013, 01:42 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by disbandtheoilers View Post
I stopped reading when I saw Gaborik ahead of Stepan. That to me was proof the list was garbage. When will people realize just how overrated Joe Thornton is.
gaborik is better than stepan. what discredits this list is steen ahead of gabs and nash.

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11-08-2013, 01:46 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
You can go back and use the last 4 seasons if you want. The difference between the two will likely be a 20 point difference in Sedin's favor, but considering Zetterberg plays better at his own end of the ice, I think it pretty much evens out the argument. Now include the playoffs into discussion and this should not be close. As I said, based on that, Zberg should be ahead of both of the Sedins on the list.
No the difference between the two is 67 points, and the gap is even bigger if you count the last 4 full seasons. Again, you completely ignore the part where Henrik clearly has better advance stats than Zetterberg the last "two seasons" if those stats make an argument for Zetterberg being better offensively, these stats should certainly make an argument for Henrik being a better "two-way" player. But me unlike you looks at larger sample sizes than 63 games to base my decisions, it's quite clear that Sedin is better offensively and Zetterberg is better defensively.

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Old
11-08-2013, 02:20 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by RK 17 View Post
No the difference between the two is 67 points, and the gap is even bigger if you count the last 4 full seasons. Again, you completely ignore the part where Henrik clearly has better advance stats than Zetterberg the last "two seasons" if those stats make an argument for Zetterberg being better offensively, these stats should certainly make an argument for Henrik being a better "two-way" player. But me unlike you looks at larger sample sizes than 63 games to base my decisions, it's quite clear that Sedin is better offensively and Zetterberg is better defensively.
I'm guessing you're including Sedin's 112 points season. If you're picking and choosing, why don't we compare their entire career while you're at it. The reality is, H.Sedin has declined from his 112 points season, Zetterberg on the other hand has not. If we compare their recent play and accomplishment, it's close if you don't include playoff performances, as soon as that comes into discussion, it's a no brainer.

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11-08-2013, 02:31 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
I'm guessing you're including Sedin's 112 points season. If you're picking and choosing, why don't we compare their entire career while you're at it. The reality is, H.Sedin has declined from his 112 points season, Zetterberg on the other hand has not. If we compare their recent play and accomplishment, it's close if you don't include playoff performances, as soon as that comes into discussion, it's a no brainer.
You're the one who asked to compare their last 4 seasons, not me. Okay, you're saying lets use recent playoff stats. Let's compare their last 4 playoffs.

H.Sedin: 46 games 44 points .96 PPG
Zetterberg: 38 games 38 points 1 PPG

But it's not even close amirite?

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Old
11-08-2013, 02:35 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
Would you really take either of the Sedins over Zetterberg?
Henrik Sedin is the game's second best playmaker, behind Crosby. Last year was the first time since 2009-2010 that he didn't lead the league in assists. The only player that has lead the league in assists more times in a row than Henrik Sedin is Wayne Gretzky. As good of an all-around game as Z has, that doesn't outweigh the fact that Henrik makes everyone around him significantly better.

IMO, Henrik Sedin should be 6th or 7th on this list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
I'm guessing you're including Sedin's 112 points season. If you're picking and choosing, why don't we compare their entire career while you're at it. The reality is, H.Sedin has declined from his 112 points season, Zetterberg on the other hand has not. If we compare their recent play and accomplishment, it's close if you don't include playoff performances, as soon as that comes into discussion, it's a no brainer.
Watch the Sedins this year. They've been every bit as dominant as they were two years ago. Henrik Sedin, in particular, has made other teams' defences look like beer league defenders.


Last edited by nowhereman: 11-08-2013 at 02:41 PM.
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Old
11-08-2013, 02:44 PM
  #81
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Good job on the whole, OP. It's not easy to make this kind of list. And remember that people are going to disagree (and call the list a "joke" or whatever) no matter what order you go with.

My own nitpicks:
- Giroux is way, way too high.
- Stamkos should be at 3, above Malkin.
- In the top 30, I think Backstrom, Kopitar, Spezza, Vanek, and Parise are all a bit too high. Kessel, Thornton, and Bergeron are too low.
- The list really does become a complete crapshoot after around #50. I'm not sure how anyone can confidently conclude, for instance, that Frans Nielsen is slightly better than Martin Hanzal, but not quite as good as Derek Stepan. But I get that it's all just for fun. Admirable effort.

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11-08-2013, 02:49 PM
  #82
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Backes should be higher and Steen lower.
Agreed. Backes is the best forward on the Blues overall.

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Old
11-08-2013, 02:53 PM
  #83
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wont bother commenting on the whole list but I loled at Turris being above Lupul

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Old
11-08-2013, 02:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by RK 17 View Post
You're the one who asked to compare their last 4 seasons, not me. Okay, you're saying lets use recent playoff stats. Let's compare their last 4 playoffs.

H.Sedin: 46 games 44 points .96 PPG
Zetterberg: 38 games 38 points 1 PPG

But it's not even close amirite?
Yea, because the game is all about points. Have you actually watched the games played? From what I know, the Sedins disappeared in the big moments, Zetterberg on the other hand did the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Henrik Sedin is the game's second best playmaker, behind Crosby. Last year was the first time since 2009-2010 that he didn't lead the league in assists. The only player that has lead the league in assists more times in a row than Henrik Sedin is Wayne Gretzky. As good of an all-around game as Z has, that doesn't outweigh the fact that Henrik makes everyone around him significantly better.
Adam Oates was probably the second best pure playmaker in the league during the Gretzky era. But would you take him over someone like Doug Gilmour?

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:06 PM
  #85
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Saw Nazem Kadri at 100 and stopped reading.
Like what everyone else did who read his post??

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:14 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Riddum View Post
The list is an absolute joke. Again, people are in love with names instead of actual output. This is actually one of the worst lists I have ever seen in my life.
Make a better one!

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:20 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
Yea, because the game is all about points. Have you actually watched the games played? From what I know, the Sedins disappeared in the big moments, Zetterberg on the other hand did the opposite.



Adam Oates was probably the second best pure playmaker in the league during the Gretzky era. But would you take him over someone like Doug Gilmour?
You make it sound like Henrik Sedin is a soft one-dimensional player while Zetterberg is a gritty, tenacious playoff hero. Examine their careers and watch them play. It is not that clear cut.

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:36 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
You make it sound like Henrik Sedin is a soft one-dimensional player while Zetterberg is a gritty, tenacious playoff hero. Examine their careers and watch them play. It is not that clear cut.
I never said he was soft, I said in comparison to Zetterberg's playoffs, it's not close at all. And Zetterberg IS a playoff hero.

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:41 PM
  #89
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PA Parenteau is definitely a top 100 forward. 43 points in 48 games last year and 67 the year before

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:43 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
Like what everyone else did who read his post??
That post is gold.

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:50 PM
  #91
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Lupul and Kadri should be higher than JVR in my opinion, Lupul in top 50 and Kadri and JVR at the 70's

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Old
11-08-2013, 03:52 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
Yea, because the game is all about points. Have you actually watched the games played? From what I know, the Sedins disappeared in the big moments, Zetterberg on the other hand did the opposite.



Adam Oates was probably the second best pure playmaker in the league during the Gretzky era. But would you take him over someone like Doug Gilmour?
None of your posts really provide any concrete evidence as to why Zetterberg is better than Henrik. The stats say that you're wrong.

If you watch both play right now, Henrik is clearly looking like the more dominant player, making everyone around him better and doing it all at even strength with a joke powerplay. If our PP was clicking Henrik could be leading the leauge in scoring.

See, I can be vague and speak in intangibles too. To me this is pretty clear cut right now. Datsyuk vs Henrik is more comparable right now.

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Old
11-08-2013, 04:00 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Kirk Mclean View Post
None of your posts really provide any concrete evidence as to why Zetterberg is better than Henrik. The stats say that you're wrong.
The same could be reversed.

Quote:
If you watch both play right now, Henrik is clearly looking like the more dominant player, making everyone around him better and doing it all at even strength with a joke powerplay. If our PP was clicking Henrik could be leading the leauge in scoring.

See, I can be vague and speak in intangibles too. To me this is pretty clear cut right now. Datsyuk vs Henrik is more comparable right now.
Both of Datsyuk and Zetterberg are ahead of the Sedins. In the regular season Datsyuk is the best out of them but when the playoffs come, Zetterberg is ahead.

H.Sedin can score all the assists he wants, in the end of the day, when I'm preparing for the spring time and when it's playoff war time, Zetterberg is the kind of guy I want leading my team. Which is why I brought up the Oates vs Gilmour comparison, because this exactly sums up H.Sedin vs Zetterberg.

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Old
11-08-2013, 04:04 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
The same could be reversed.



Both of Datsyuk and Zetterberg are ahead of the Sedins. In the regular season Datsyuk is the best out of them but when the playoffs come, Zetterberg is ahead.

H.Sedin can score all the assists he wants, in the end of the day, when I'm preparing for the spring time and when it's playoff war time, Zetterberg is the kind of guy I want leading my team. Which is why I brought up the Oates vs Gilmour comparison, because this exactly sums up H.Sedin vs Zetterberg.
Since their Cup winning season 2008-09, the Red Wings have won as many playoff rounds as the Canucks. Lidstrom > than all of them. And there ain't anybody remotely close to Lidstrom on the Canucks (past/present).

I'll take the 2009 (and prior) versions of Zetterberg over any year of Henrik Sedin. But right now, I don't think the differences are as significant.


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 11-08-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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Old
11-08-2013, 04:07 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
I wish the people who write these lists would give some soft of a guideline on how they evaluated the players on this list. Are we talking about best forwards in terms of offense, or overall game? The two lists would be VERY different.

I am evaluating this list from a pure offensive perspective.

Top half of the list is good - the bottom half is terrible.

- Kessel is definitely top 10. He has been top 10 in scoring the last 3 years.
- Justin Williams doesn't belong on this list
- Alfy should be in the bottom quarter of the list
- Lupul is way too low. This guy, when healthy, is a top 30 forward in the league. Just look at his numbers over the last 3 years.
- Kadri is too low. He should be around the 70-ish mark
- Steen is too high. He's having a good year, but he isn't even close, skillwise, to the players around him on that list. He should be in the 60 ish region.
- Franzen doesn't belong on this list
- Stoll doesn't belong on this list
Why would you evaluate a player purely on an offensive perspective? The problem with HF boards right here. Also shocking that all the Leafs are rated way too low according to you. If you want a list of PPG its pretty easy to find

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Old
11-08-2013, 04:14 PM
  #96
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Semin underrated, but what else is new?

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11-08-2013, 04:58 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Since their Cup winning season 2008-09, the Red Wings have won as many playoff rounds as the Canucks. Lidstrom > than all of them. And there ain't anybody remotely close to Lidstrom on the Canucks (past/present).

I'll take the 2009 (and prior) versions of Zetterberg over any year of Henrik Sedin. But right now, I don't think the differences are as significant.
Pretty much agree, either guy right now is a personal choice but Zetts quite clearly has been the better playoff performer and that's not even debatable is it?

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11-08-2013, 05:14 PM
  #98
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Semin underrated, but what else is new?
Maybe on potential but for actual play excluding last season, other the last 4 years including this year his ranking is pretty accurate isn't it?

His actual production is inconsistent with his skill set, kind of like a Mogilny lite.

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Old
11-08-2013, 05:19 PM
  #99
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Zetterberg should be higher than Giroux and I'm not sure its even arguable.

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Old
11-08-2013, 07:35 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Since their Cup winning season 2008-09, the Red Wings have won as many playoff rounds as the Canucks. Lidstrom > than all of them. And there ain't anybody remotely close to Lidstrom on the Canucks (past/present).

I'll take the 2009 (and prior) versions of Zetterberg over any year of Henrik Sedin. But right now, I don't think the differences are as significant.
Even post-Lidstrom era, did you watch this past playoffs? Zetterberg was a beast, H.Sedin? Not so much.

So when you see a top 100 list like this, I fail to see how either Sedin could be ahead of Zetterberg based on recent play. The fact that they're both producing the same offensive numbers and Zetterberg is better in his own end should at least give him the edge.

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