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Mike Modano vs Mark Recchi for Hall of Fame

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Old
11-16-2013, 06:04 PM
  #101
billybudd
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
They might have also noticed that Malik was a #4 defenceman at best.

He was top-10 in ESTOI/G in every season from 1997-98 to 2002-03, and led all skaters by over a minute/game in 1999-2000.
So did Robert Svehla. Big deal. Should also note that Svehla was more productive from the back end in 400 less games. I also believe he finished first or second in the NHL in hits 3 or 4 times (not sure where to double-check that, though).

Never saw that guy getting recognized for a year end award. Or noticed at all, really.

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All that in addition to being arguably the best penalty killing defenceman in the game. There was a lot more to his game than one high plus-minus number.
If by "arguably," you mean "not," then I agree.

Hatcher was notable for four things in my book.

-His skating was hilarious to watch.
-He threw every bodycheck with his elbow out as far as possible
-Referees called the rulebook differently for him than for any other dirtbag (Pilon, Marchment).
-ESPN loved him because he was a "marketable" American in an era dominated by guys who spoke broken English

Detroit didn't just buy him out because of his knee. They bought him out because he couldn't play (and this was obvious the season just after he was selected to an All-Star team).

If Derian Hatcher had been from Slovakia, he'd never have made it to an all-star game (let alone a year end all-star team). The guy was a pilon good only for clearing the front of the net (illegally, even then) and throwing cheapshots the referees ignored (which wouldn't have been the case if he was from Sweden or Russia or wherever).

If his elbow missed you, it was pretty easy to go right around him.

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11-16-2013, 09:09 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
So did Robert Svehla. Big deal. Should also note that Svehla was more productive from the back end in 400 less games. I also believe he finished first or second in the NHL in hits 3 or 4 times (not sure where to double-check that, though).

Never saw that guy getting recognized for a year end award. Or noticed at all, really.



If by "arguably," you mean "not," then I agree.

Hatcher was notable for four things in my book.

-His skating was hilarious to watch.
-He threw every bodycheck with his elbow out as far as possible
-Referees called the rulebook differently for him than for any other dirtbag (Pilon, Marchment).
-ESPN loved him because he was a "marketable" American in an era dominated by guys who spoke broken English

Detroit didn't just buy him out because of his knee. They bought him out because he couldn't play (and this was obvious the season just after he was selected to an All-Star team).

If Derian Hatcher had been from Slovakia, he'd never have made it to an all-star game (let alone a year end all-star team). The guy was a pilon good only for clearing the front of the net (illegally, even then) and throwing cheapshots the referees ignored (which wouldn't have been the case if he was from Sweden or Russia or wherever).

If his elbow missed you, it was pretty easy to go right around him.
Hey, Svehla was an excellent all-around defenseman and one of my favourite players ever (see avatar)... but he was quite clearly not as good as Hatcher.

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11-23-2013, 03:56 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
According to who? I'm not neccessary saying you're wrong, but wasn't Derian Hatcher more highly regarded than Zubov when they were on the team together?
Zubov dictated the rhythm of games. Hatcher was an emotional leader and shutdown defenseman but there is no doubt that even in the midst of clutch and grab hockey Zubov was much more important to the team's success. This is all my opinion but in a Zubov vs Hatcher comparison among Stars fans Zubie comes out on top in a massive landslide most times. Zubov was a one of a kind player and Hatcher wasn't.

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Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
Technically Modano didn't skate, he flew. I would say he was our best skater but Zubov was just insanely good at bringing the puck out and making guys miss with just one little shoulder dip or head fake. He didnt really have the blazing speed (not that he wasnt fast) as Modano but he was just so smooth and effortless. Fastest skater was Modano. Best skater, that's a close debate but still I'd say Mo.

It's still an argument I struggle with regarding Zubov or Hatcher. Zubov was like the quiet assassin while Hatcher was the loud in your face bruiser and our defensive leader. Both highly regarded, just different. It's easy for people to look back and have more sentiment for the one who put up the offense, but Hatcher's contributions were likely just as important.

And Hatcher's skating wasn't his strongest attribute, but he was better in his prime than what most give him credit for and he was definitely a lot better at heading the puck up ice (whether skating it or passing it) than what he gets credit for too. He wasn't just a talent-less slug like a Hal Gill. He was smart too.
Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I wasn't talking about skating ability I was just trying to exclude goalies from the discussion. My opinion is that Zubov was a better defenseman than Modano was a center.

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11-23-2013, 12:20 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Zubov dictated the rhythm of games. Hatcher was an emotional leader and shutdown defenseman but there is no doubt that even in the midst of clutch and grab hockey Zubov was much more important to the team's success. This is all my opinion but in a Zubov vs Hatcher comparison among Stars fans Zubie comes out on top in a massive landslide most times. Zubov was a one of a kind player and Hatcher wasn't.



Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I wasn't talking about skating ability I was just trying to exclude goalies from the discussion. My opinion is that Zubov was a better defenseman than Modano was a center.
Was this true before 2003, when Hatcher left to go to rival Detroit (and promptly hurt himself and declined while Zubov continued to improve)?

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11-23-2013, 12:56 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Zubov dictated the rhythm of games. Hatcher was an emotional leader and shutdown defenseman but there is no doubt that even in the midst of clutch and grab hockey Zubov was much more important to the team's success. This is all my opinion but in a Zubov vs Hatcher comparison among Stars fans Zubie comes out on top in a massive landslide most times. Zubov was a one of a kind player and Hatcher wasn't.



Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I wasn't talking about skating ability I was just trying to exclude goalies from the discussion. My opinion is that Zubov was a better defenseman than Modano was a center.
Ah okay. Gotcha.

Well, that's a close debate as far as Zubov vs Modano and who was better at their position. I think back then Modano was among the top few at C and was officially elite so it's hard for me to actually place Zubov ahead. Not taking anything away from him as he was pretty elite himself and despite the lack of attention and fanfare he received he was among the league's best too.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was this true before 2003, when Hatcher left to go to rival Detroit (and promptly hurt himself and declined while Zubov continued to improve)?
Hard to say. They both played very different roles. I can't comment on what others thought but I know I looked at them as about equals - just different. I think though that as a team you can game plan and somewhat compensate well enough to cover when a guy like Hatcher is out of the lineup for a few games, whereas a guy like Zubov can't really be compensated for if he's out. Who's gonna pick up the slack for what he did from the back end? We were a good enough team that with either out for a bit we could/would have still won games but you just can't replace that steady puck moving/offensive ability.

I do think though that when people look back, it is easier to give more credit to the guy with the offensive numbers than the one without.

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11-24-2013, 05:56 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was this true before 2003, when Hatcher left to go to rival Detroit (and promptly hurt himself and declined while Zubov continued to improve)?
It has nothing to do with Hatcher leaving. This isn't some sort of revisionist history. Check the stats and how each was used in the playoffs. Zubov was infinitely more important than Hatcher.

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Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
I do think though that when people look back, it is easier to give more credit to the guy with the offensive numbers than the one without.
This is one of those cases where down-playing statistics doesn't paint a more accurate picture. Zubov was 1A on those PP's and played a ton of even strength minutes as well. The two are on a completely different tier to me but that says more about how good Zubov was rather than talking down Hatcher.

As far as Zubov vs Modano goes, I'd say Zubov was as "officially elite" as Modano was. Both were underrated league-wide IMO. I mean, you get people legitimately comparing Zubov to Rafalski in this section of supposed hockey historians.


Last edited by glovesave_35: 11-24-2013 at 06:03 AM.
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11-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
It has nothing to do with Hatcher leaving. This isn't some sort of revisionist history. Check the stats and how each was used in the playoffs. Zubov was infinitely more important than Hatcher.



This is one of those cases where down-playing statistics doesn't paint a more accurate picture. Zubov was 1A on those PP's and played a ton of even strength minutes as well. The two are on a completely different tier to me but that says more about how good Zubov was rather than talking down Hatcher.

As far as Zubov vs Modano goes, I'd say Zubov was as "officially elite" as Modano was. Both were underrated league-wide IMO. I mean, you get people legitimately comparing Zubov to Rafalski in this section of supposed hockey historians.
I know how they were used in the playoffs - Hatcher got the tough defensive minutes and was the top PK option. Zubov drove the play against lesser competition and was the top PP option.

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11-24-2013, 06:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I know how they were used in the playoffs - Hatcher got the tough defensive minutes and was the top PK option. Zubov drove the play against lesser competition and was the top PP option.
1998:

Zubov - 26:47 TOI/GM 7:59 PP, 3:36 SH (11:35 total special teams)
Hatcher - 24:30 TOI/GM, 2:49 PP, 4:46 SH (7:35)

1999:

Zubov - 30:16 TOI/GM, 5:34 PP, 2:44 SH (8:18)
Hatcher - 29:05 TOI/GM, 2:11 PP, 3:56 SH (6:07)

2000

Zubov - 26:28 TOI/GM, 4:28 PP, 2:34 SH (7:02)
Hatcher - 27:39 TOI/GM, 1:14 PP, 5:25 SH (6:39)

2001:

Zubov - 30:37 TOI/GM, 5:53 PP, 3:42 SH (9:35)
Hatcher - 28:53 TOI/GM, 1:49 PP, 5:11 SH (7:00)


1998-99 is the oldest season NHL.com keeps stats for (that I see anyways). The above seasons were generally the high water mark for the Stars, though it would be most accurate if we could add data from the 1997-98 season. I listed these numbers to show that the statement you made doesn't paint the whole picture. Hatcher played token minutes on the PP and monster minutes on the PK. Zubov played monster minutes on the PP and significant minutes on the PK. Zubov was leaned upon heavily to be a two-way defenseman and not the "offensive defenseman" so many people mis-characterize him as.

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12-22-2013, 05:14 AM
  #109
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Modano was the better player but both are HOF worthy. My guess RECCHI WILL HAVE TO WAit

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12-22-2013, 05:24 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
1998:

Zubov - 26:47 TOI/GM 7:59 PP, 3:36 SH (11:35 total special teams)
Hatcher - 24:30 TOI/GM, 2:49 PP, 4:46 SH (7:35)

1999:

Zubov - 30:16 TOI/GM, 5:34 PP, 2:44 SH (8:18)
Hatcher - 29:05 TOI/GM, 2:11 PP, 3:56 SH (6:07)

2000

Zubov - 26:28 TOI/GM, 4:28 PP, 2:34 SH (7:02)
Hatcher - 27:39 TOI/GM, 1:14 PP, 5:25 SH (6:39)

2001:

Zubov - 30:37 TOI/GM, 5:53 PP, 3:42 SH (9:35)
Hatcher - 28:53 TOI/GM, 1:49 PP, 5:11 SH (7:00)


1998-99 is the oldest season NHL.com keeps stats for (that I see anyways). The above seasons were generally the high water mark for the Stars, though it would be most accurate if we could add data from the 1997-98 season. I listed these numbers to show that the statement you made doesn't paint the whole picture. Hatcher played token minutes on the PP and monster minutes on the PK. Zubov played monster minutes on the PP and significant minutes on the PK. Zubov was leaned upon heavily to be a two-way defenseman and not the "offensive defenseman" so many people mis-characterize him as.
You will never convince any intelligent hockey fan that Zubov was little more than a offensive defenseman. As a rookie he lead the NYR in scoring despite having HOfer Brian Leetch and was a force in the playoffs. On defense he was god awful. Zubov didn't improve much when he went to Pittsburgh. He was a defensive liability until he joined Dallas. His offensive numbers declined significantly with the Stars. His defense improved but he had a lot of help with a good supporting cast and a coach who preached defense first. He matured into a more well rounded player later in his career but never was a great two way player.

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12-22-2013, 05:36 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Zubov dictated the rhythm of games. Hatcher was an emotional leader and shutdown defenseman but there is no doubt that even in the midst of clutch and grab hockey Zubov was much more important to the team's success. This is all my opinion but in a Zubov vs Hatcher comparison among Stars fans Zubie comes out on top in a massive landslide most times. Zubov was a one of a kind player and Hatcher wasn't.



Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I wasn't talking about skating ability I was just trying to exclude goalies from the discussion. My opinion is that Zubov was a better defenseman than Modano was a center.
Only a Dallas Star fan would classify Zubov as "One of a Kind". Your post is obviously biased. The only thing I can say about Zubov in this context is that back then Zubov was one of a few Russian defenseman who were offensively gifted so in that retrospect he was one of a kind. The NHl has seen plenty of Zubov type players. Zubov complimented Hatcher in a defensive and boring system. Watching the Dallas Stars play then was worse then watching paint dry. Comparing him to Rafalski is a joke. Zubov is a borderline Hall of Famer. Yes he is more like Niedermayer or Blake in comparison of talent and was better then both offensively but I rather have those two players on my team any day. Zubov never played a physical brand of hockey either. Dallas fans seem to forget his past career and tend to focus solely on his days in Texas.

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12-22-2013, 05:40 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I think that's well said. Definitely the difference between a show horse and a work horse.

Modano seemed to take a long time to fully hit his full potential. I don't think the Modano vs Linden debate for first overall in 1988 was really settled until the mid 90s. As gaudy as Modano's early 90s numbers look to our eyes today, they were fairly modest compared to what people of his generation were doing.

33 goals and 93 points was 30 points behind Mark Recchi's totals. Other first overalls around the same age (Sundin and Turgeon) were scoring in the 100s. Roenick, Mogilny, Selanne were more spectacular offensively from the same draft. And we're not even getting into the veterans, the Russians and what have you.
All your looking at is offensive numbers. Turgeon? Great player who didn't play defense. That goes the same for guys like Teemu and Lafontaine and Recchi. Modano was a two way player and because of it much like Fedorov his production will decline.

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12-22-2013, 06:00 AM
  #113
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Nothing wrong with that USA defense either. Chelios, Leetch, Suter, both Hatchers, but only two of them are in the HHOF, and likely ever will be. For all Housley did you would think he'd be a lock cinch for that team, but he wasn't and this is after leading his team in scoring in 1996. So really, it does tell you something about him, or in that case, Mike Green if anyone wants a modern day comparison.



Can you remember a single important goal Housley got in his career? I can't. That's a lot of points on the ice and we can't remember his contributions.

Look, if you wanted a guy that could run a power play for 20 years he was your guy. Nothing wrong with that at all, but he was a liability when he was on the ice without the puck. He is one of those guys that falls into the category of having little substance to his game. Someone mentioned Pierre Turgeon. Fair points. I often think there is a trifecta of names (maybe more) of players from each position that will get in someday only on the basis that we forgot just how much they DIDN'T dominate despite what their stats say. Turgeon, Housley and Chris Osgood come to mind right away. Bernie Nicholls is another name. They all put up pretty good numbers but would you ever consider them great?

To me the HHOF has to be about greatness. With Housley would he be trustworthy on the ice in the final minute with a lead? Would a coach even put him out there? Could he shut down Mario Lemieux? Or Messier? Or Lindros? Or Sakic or Forsberg? Would he throw a check if he had to? Did he ever? And even in the postseason was he important? His team makes it to the final once in 1998 and he isn't a factor at all. This is a guy with little else but offense on the table and he had 4 assists in the 1998 playoffs.

You just want more out of the guy, that's all.
Phil Housley in comparison maybe like Osgood but not the others you compared. Even Osgood is an unfair comparison. First off Turgeon did not sustain his play throughout his entire career like Phil Housley did. Osgood was never a great player but played for a great team that made his stats better similar to Tom Barasso. Housley numbers surpass many other d men who are in the HOF. His offensive ability in a era with other great defenseman was in comparison. Was Coffey great defensively?
Was Suter?

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12-22-2013, 07:56 AM
  #114
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Recchi should get in before Modano. Recchi is the most all-round player to ever play the game. I mean he's even a doctor!


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12-22-2013, 10:53 AM
  #115
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Hey, Svehla was an excellent all-around defenseman and one of my favourite players ever (see avatar)... but he was quite clearly not as good as Hatcher.
I would agree with this but Hatcher was custom built for the clutch and grab era, Svehla arguably has a more adaptable skill set across different eras.

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12-22-2013, 07:57 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
You will never convince any intelligent hockey fan that Zubov was little more than a offensive defenseman. As a rookie he lead the NYR in scoring despite having HOfer Brian Leetch and was a force in the playoffs. On defense he was god awful. Zubov didn't improve much when he went to Pittsburgh. He was a defensive liability until he joined Dallas. His offensive numbers declined significantly with the Stars. His defense improved but he had a lot of help with a good supporting cast and a coach who preached defense first. He matured into a more well rounded player later in his career but never was a great two way player.
You're not giving the player enough credit for making the adjustments to his game necessary to win. He played a ton of minutes and routinely played against guys like Sakic in the playoffs. You can't do that by being mediocre or passable defensively.

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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Dallas fans seem to forget his past career and tend to focus solely on his days in Texas.
Zubov was 26 his first season in Dallas and played 12 years with that organization compared to one with Pittsburgh and three with New York. People tend to focus on how players are in their primes rather than the first 20% of their careers. Crazy how that works.

Btw, apologies for giving you some boring hockey to watch back in the day.

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