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Old
11-10-2013, 03:13 PM
  #1
Tookey98
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Toffoli and Vey

If those two keep playing as well as they have does that make stoll available? Or is it better to hold on to stoll for another playoff run and to mentor these kids in the face off circle and pk?


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11-10-2013, 03:41 PM
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Stoll is not expendable. In the same way Lewis is a favorite of Sutter's, Stoll is Lombardi's guy.

Besides, there's no reason to make him expendable. In time, he'll be the 4C, while still taking key faceoffs, getting sparse PP time, and killing penalties. I know some of you insist he makes too much money to be the "fourth line center," but I respectfully disagree.

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11-10-2013, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoForRoughing View Post
Stoll is not expendable. In the same way Lewis is a favorite of Sutter's, Stoll is Lombardi's guy.

Besides, there's no reason to make him expendable. In time, he'll be the 4C, while still taking key faceoffs, getting sparse PP time, and killing penalties. I know some of you insist he makes too much money to be the "fourth line center," but I respectfully disagree.
Im going to disagree with him taking the key faceoffs this year i think kopitar is now taking the ecential faceoffs Also jeff carter is geting more and more of them as well. As good as stoll FOs has been in the past Hes less and less the main faceoff guy as others are getting better at them * i belive we are like the 2nd best team in the league in this area.

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11-10-2013, 10:05 PM
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I don't think Stoll will be traded because of mostly off-ice reasons. On-ice is arguable. AEG and DL love him.

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11-10-2013, 10:21 PM
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I don't think Stoll will be traded because of mostly off-ice reasons. On-ice is arguable. AEG and DL love him.
Yes, the do, but hockey is still a business first and Stoll is not in the future picture for the Kings. And if some GM who needs what he can offer, a solid vet presence on the 3rd line makes DL an offer he can't refuse, he wouldn't hang up.
His first priority is to put together a team that can compete with the best teams in the League, so I thnk if the right deal came along, he'd say yes.

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11-10-2013, 10:27 PM
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Yes, the do, but hockey is still a business first and Stoll is not in the future picture for the Kings. And if some GM who needs what he can offer, a solid vet presence on the 3rd line makes DL an offer he can't refuse, he wouldn't hang up.
His first priority is to put together a team that can compete with the best teams in the League, so I thnk if the right deal came along, he'd say yes.
If there was someone that overpaid sure... Just don't see Stoll moving unless Vey and one more of the centers in the AHL or Lewis really step up. Depth at center is useful in the playoffs when the injuries start.

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11-10-2013, 10:27 PM
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What will make Stoll expendable is not Vey or Toffoli. It will be Kopitar, Richards, etc. proving they can win in the faceoff circle. And no, they haven't proven that yet, we are only 17 games into the season. Remember how badly San Jose destroyed us last year when Stoll was hurt? No way DL exposes us to that until he knows Kopitar and Richards can win faceoffs at a +50% clip for a long while. Maybe mid-season we can revisit the idea of dealing Stoll.

I am in favor of dealing Stoll due to cap reasons, but only if we know we'll be ok in the faceoff circle first.

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11-10-2013, 10:33 PM
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What will make Stoll expendable is not Vey or Toffoli. It will be Kopitar, Richards, etc. proving they can win in the faceoff circle. And no, they haven't proven that yet, we are only 17 games into the season. Remember how badly San Jose destroyed us last year when Stoll was hurt? No way DL exposes us to that until he knows Kopitar and Richards can win faceoffs at a +50% clip for a long while. Maybe mid-season we can revisit the idea of dealing Stoll.

I am in favor of dealing Stoll due to cap reasons, but only if we know we'll be ok in the faceoff circle first.
Still don't see Lombardi moving Stoll. Stoll is the first player prospects are introduced too (according to Lombardi). Lombardi is always on record saying Stoll is the best in shape King, and young players need too see how hard he works on/off the ice.

I think Stoll is going to retire a King, the Stoll haters only hope is:

1. Stoll plays out of his mind for the rest of his career
2. Stoll retires early, takes a coaching job with Kings
3. Stoll takes a huge discount on his next contract.

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11-10-2013, 11:09 PM
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Remember how badly San Jose destroyed us last year when Stoll was hurt?
I think the bigger point here is that we may have lost Stoll in the series and got destroyed in the faceoffs, however, we won the series.

So, just how important are the faceoffs exactly???

And in no way am I saying we don't need Stoll. But I don't think he's even close to being a difference maker. He's basically an overpaid supporting cast, that brings energy and win some faceoffs.

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11-10-2013, 11:27 PM
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If Stoll was paid about $1.5M less than what he's earning, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion about his worth to the team. Unfortunately, he's one of the higher paid forwards on the team and doesn't contribute enough to justify his salary, especially when a forward like Lewis can do what Stoll does (except without the same faceoff winning percentage) and a fraction of his salary.

Vey is giving the team something the fourth line was lacking, some speed and creativity. Look at how effective the fourth line was last night when playing against the opposition's fourth line.

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11-10-2013, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
If Stoll was paid about $1.5M less than what he's earning, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion about his worth to the team. Unfortunately, he's one of the higher paid forwards on the team and doesn't contribute enough to justify his salary, especially when a forward like Lewis can do what Stoll does (except without the same faceoff winning percentage) and a fraction of his salary.

Vey is giving the team something the fourth line was lacking, some speed and creativity. Look at how effective the fourth line was last night when playing against the opposition's fourth line.

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11-10-2013, 11:45 PM
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Remember when pockets of fans were suggesting that Darryl Sutter does not like rookies? Looks to me that he's putting players in a position to succeed and not trying to force them to play out of position (which they tried in the past when they tried fitting square pegs into round holes, i.e. Purcell as a checker, Moulson as a checker, etc.).

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11-11-2013, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Remember when pockets of fans were suggesting that Darryl Sutter does not like rookies? Looks to me that he's putting players in a position to succeed and not trying to force them to play out of position (which they tried in the past when they tried fitting square pegs into round holes, i.e. Purcell as a checker, Moulson as a checker, etc.).
**** you Terry Murray!

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11-11-2013, 08:50 AM
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**** you Terry Murray!

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11-11-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
I think the bigger point here is that we may have lost Stoll in the series and got destroyed in the faceoffs, however, we won the series.

So, just how important are the faceoffs exactly???

And in no way am I saying we don't need Stoll. But I don't think he's even close to being a difference maker. He's basically an overpaid supporting cast, that brings energy and win some faceoffs.
Yeah we won the series. We won game one with Stoll, after that the series was split and San Jose was all over us some games.

Winning one series doesn't mean we don't need Stoll. We are a puck possession team, so starting out without the puck from the majority of faceoffs is very detrimental to our team. We got destroyed in the faceoffs by Chicago too, how'd we do there?

The teams that win faceoffs more than the opposition win more games. I don't know where I seen that stat on it, but it was ridiculous how often teams that won the most faceoffs won the game. It was like 70 or 75 per cent. When they play a system like we do, that number likely would go up.

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11-11-2013, 01:21 PM
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I think the bigger point in all of this is that the Kings are finally starting to give their prospects a chance by bringing them up to the big club. For so long all we heard is this player isn't ready, or that player isn't ready. We are finally starting to infuse younger legs into the lineup, along with more skill. How are we supposed to know what we have when we have players in the American League level putting up very respectable numbers, but they are never given a pro-long opportunity to prove their worth at the next level? It seemed for the past few years, the only ones who were given that opportunity were King and Nolan.. and they stuck. They stuck because there decent players, there cheap, and there young.

We need to continue to provide our younger guys the opportunity to play at the next level who deserve it. This keeps them hungry down on the farm, promoting further development. It keeps the team hungry at the NHL level, as they know there jobs are on the line if they become stagnant/don't perform, and it allows the Kings to ice the best team possible by examining all of the assets that we have. Obviously there are certain players on the team are not part of the discussion, but there are at least some that should be judged by the above mentioned criteria. Those players should be toyed with until we find the lineup that will work best, and sometimes, that cannot be accomplished in training camp and exhibition games alone. Need to provide opportunities in the regular season for the younger players.

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11-11-2013, 02:01 PM
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There are certainly a lot of options for Sutter when Carter returns to the lineup. Vey has a real opportunity to win Fraser's job if he continues to play well, but I think Dean may send him back down anyway. Once Stoll gets back Dean doesn't want Vey in LA as a healthy scratch.

The Kings development system continues to provide good hockey players that are ready to play in the NHL. The patience being shown in the development of Toffoli, Vey, and Pearson is going to pay dividends down the road. Morris is doing a great job for the organization.

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11-11-2013, 02:06 PM
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Why are we hung up on this 'finally willing to give young legs a chance' stuff?

In 2011-2012, we brought up Voynov, King, Nolan and Loktionov
2012-2013, we brought up Muzzin and Toffoli
This season, so far it's been Toffoli and Vey getting into the line up.

How many kids is enough for this board?

Better yet, look at that list? The only one that has been brought up that didn't stick with LA is Loktionov, and he hasn't exact;y thrived elsewhere. The Kings bring guys up when they are ready, and only once they are ready. As such they jump in and play well, like Toffoli and Vey have. We make our kids earn a spot, not just give them one out of camp because they have skill. Toffoli wasn't very good in camp, so he got sent down. Certainly doesn't look like it hurt him, and now he's hungry for it.

We are following the Detroit model, and in the last 15 years, how many kids have Detroit brought in each year? Better question yet, how many have they brought in without significant playing time in the minors?

Kids come in when they are ready. They are better for it and so are we.

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11-11-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Why are we hung up on this 'finally willing to give young legs a chance' stuff?

In 2011-2012, we brought up Voynov, King, Nolan and Loktionov
2012-2013, we brought up Muzzin and Toffoli
This season, so far it's been Toffoli and Vey getting into the line up.

How many kids is enough for this board?

Better yet, look at that list? The only one that has been brought up that didn't stick with LA is Loktionov, and he hasn't exact;y thrived elsewhere. The Kings bring guys up when they are ready, and only once they are ready. As such they jump in and play well, like Toffoli and Vey have. We make our kids earn a spot, not just give them one out of camp because they have skill. Toffoli wasn't very good in camp, so he got sent down. Certainly doesn't look like it hurt him, and now he's hungry for it.

We are following the Detroit model, and in the last 15 years, how many kids have Detroit brought in each year? Better question yet, how many have they brought in without significant playing time in the minors?

Kids come in when they are ready. They are better for it and so are we.
Perfectly said.

I couldn't agree more.

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11-11-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Why are we hung up on this 'finally willing to give young legs a chance' stuff?

In 2011-2012, we brought up Voynov, King, Nolan and Loktionov
2012-2013, we brought up Muzzin and Toffoli
This season, so far it's been Toffoli and Vey getting into the line up.

How many kids is enough for this board?

Better yet, look at that list? The only one that has been brought up that didn't stick with LA is Loktionov, and he hasn't exact;y thrived elsewhere. The Kings bring guys up when they are ready, and only once they are ready. As such they jump in and play well, like Toffoli and Vey have. We make our kids earn a spot, not just give them one out of camp because they have skill. Toffoli wasn't very good in camp, so he got sent down. Certainly doesn't look like it hurt him, and now he's hungry for it.

We are following the Detroit model, and in the last 15 years, how many kids have Detroit brought in each year? Better question yet, how many have they brought in without significant playing time in the minors?

Kids come in when they are ready. They are better for it and so are we.
Loktionov didn't stick because he never was given a chance to succeed. Don't care what people say. He played 1st line LW when he can't play wing or 4th line duties. His linemates at one point were Westy and Harrold.

And he was great last year for the Devils after the trade. This year that team is turrble.

Otherwise, I'll decently maybe sorta possible kinda agree with you.

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11-11-2013, 02:19 PM
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Loktionov has 9 goals and 16 points in 44 games in NJ, playing some key minutes and even lining up with Kovalchuk last year. Loktinov has done nothing to back up this claim of NHL level skill people have been saying.

I like Lokti, I think he has the skill, but he's done nothing to prove LA erred in not recalling him sooner, nor has he done enough with his time in NJ to show LA ;miscast' him at all. He'd have done just as bad in LA IMO.

Btw, Vey has been playing with Nolan and Cliffy at times, hasn't made him look bad. In fact, he's done very well with them. Why? Because he's ready. If you are ready, you carry yourself.

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11-11-2013, 02:55 PM
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Why are we hung up on this 'finally willing to give young legs a chance' stuff?

In 2011-2012, we brought up Voynov, King, Nolan and Loktionov
2012-2013, we brought up Muzzin and Toffoli
This season, so far it's been Toffoli and Vey getting into the line up.

How many kids is enough for this board?

Better yet, look at that list? The only one that has been brought up that didn't stick with LA is Loktionov, and he hasn't exact;y thrived elsewhere. The Kings bring guys up when they are ready, and only once they are ready. As such they jump in and play well, like Toffoli and Vey have. We make our kids earn a spot, not just give them one out of camp because they have skill. Toffoli wasn't very good in camp, so he got sent down. Certainly doesn't look like it hurt him, and now he's hungry for it.

We are following the Detroit model, and in the last 15 years, how many kids have Detroit brought in each year? Better question yet, how many have they brought in without significant playing time in the minors?

Kids come in when they are ready. They are better for it and so are we.

Perhaps I did not make my point clear enough. My point is not we should bring guys in when they are not ready. What I am saying is I think the Kings Organization tends to view young guys by comparing them to established veterans already in the league. I am saying we should evaluate whether a younger player is ready to play not by comparing him to veterans who are 3,4,5 years older. Instead, we should provide NHL level experience, when we feel a player is ready to contribute. I feel the Detroit model is a good one. Allowing young guys to play in the minors is the right approach. But once a guy produces, he should be rewarded. Otherwise, you have a situation where you are patching the 3rd and 4th lines with the likes of Fraser, and Daniel Carcillo, when those guys may be easily replaceable by younger guys already in the system. How can you expect a young guy to get the experience needed to contribute to the organization like a Fraser, or Carcillo might, without providing the opportunity for the younger guys to contribute. Hopefully the Kings continue to reshape there roster, outside of those undisputable core players, until they find the right mix that will challenge for the cup. I think with the top level talent that we have, I would say at this point unmatched by the rest of the league outside a few teams, we should be able to try and find the right group that can take the team to the next level.

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11-11-2013, 03:16 PM
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The Black1963
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If Andrei Loktionov was named Bob Jones, would there be any interest?

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11-11-2013, 03:19 PM
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If Andrei Loktionov was named Bob Jones, would there be any interest?
I have a better name: Jeff Tambellini.

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11-11-2013, 03:46 PM
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Perhaps I did not make my point clear enough. My point is not we should bring guys in when they are not ready. What I am saying is I think the Kings Organization tends to view young guys by comparing them to established veterans already in the league. I am saying we should evaluate whether a younger player is ready to play not by comparing him to veterans who are 3,4,5 years older. Instead, we should provide NHL level experience, when we feel a player is ready to contribute. I feel the Detroit model is a good one. Allowing young guys to play in the minors is the right approach. But once a guy produces, he should be rewarded. Otherwise, you have a situation where you are patching the 3rd and 4th lines with the likes of Fraser, and Daniel Carcillo, when those guys may be easily replaceable by younger guys already in the system. How can you expect a young guy to get the experience needed to contribute to the organization like a Fraser, or Carcillo might, without providing the opportunity for the younger guys to contribute. Hopefully the Kings continue to reshape there roster, outside of those undisputable core players, until they find the right mix that will challenge for the cup. I think with the top level talent that we have, I would say at this point unmatched by the rest of the league outside a few teams, we should be able to try and find the right group that can take the team to the next level.
But we should be comparing them to vets because that's who they have to beat out to make the team. They aren't in junior, where they are against players their own age, they are in the NHL, battling guys who are 25, or 30, or even 40 years old.

And who says we don't give them NHL experience when they are NHL ready? The only player I'd argue was held back was Hickey, and even then, while I still think we ****ed that one up by not trading him, he still hasn't shown he's better than what we already have. And I say that as a huge Hickey supporter (insert Julius Ceaser Milan joke here).

The Kings have recalled guys when theya re ready for the NHl and a position makes itself available ever since Sutter came in. One of Sutter's first moves was to recall King and Nolan, and as I pointed out, we've recalled plenty of other guys since.

Also, most 4th lines are patched with the likes of Carcillo and Fraser. The main thing you want from a fourth line is a group that can go out and play 6-7 minutes a game and not hurt the team, and maybe throw a few hits to give the team a little jump. That's it. Anything beyond that is gravy, and it's why most 4th lines on good teams are filled with veterans, just like Carcillo and Fraser. Look at Vancouver's 4th line the other night, who was on it? Tom Sestito, Jeremy Welsh and Zac Dalpe, three guys who are all 24 or older. Sestito is only in the NHL because he can fight. Are there better players in the Canucks system? Yep, but it's not about calling up some kids, it's about not hurting the team and giving them a jump. Sestito had a fight, had some big hits, tried to pump up his team. I think he hurt his team on Saturday, but he was trying to get them fired up. Do you really want Vey, Toffoli, Pearson, etc. playing 6-7 minutes a night, doing little in the offensive zone, trying to just not hurt the team?

No, you want them coming up and getting 12-15 minutes a game, getting some skilled linemates to play with, getting some good opportunities and getting to play the same role they have had in Manchester. Kings fans still ***** about Loktionov not getting the right chances when he came up. While I disagree to a point on that, I do agree that he wasn't given the same chances as he was in Manchester.

The Kings have done a great job of getting guys their chance, when they have earned it. Voynov was ready, they sent him back down for about three games and traded Johnson to make room for him (and of course to get Carter). When we have injuries, who gets brought in? Guys like Muzzin, guys like Vey and Toffoli. We don't go out and trade to fill a hole, we do recall guys. The only time we trade to fill a hole is when we have to because DL and DS don't think we have that type of player in the system (like getting Carcillo, or getting Scrivens in the Berbier deal). Toffoli and Vey were both given opportunities to win a spot in camp, they didn't, they got sent down, and then after stewing in Manchester for a month, got recalled and are playing lights out.

Really, we as fans should only be concerned with one thing, the final outcome. We don't know these players, their personal situations, how they carry themselves away from the ice, nothing. The Kings management knows way more about these guys than we do. Thus far, their approach has seen us develop numerous NHLers, many of which are now on the Kings roster, and two more just made it in Toffoli and Vey and have looked great. Why tinker with something that thus far hasn't done anything wrong?

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