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13-14 Prospects Thread Version XIX: Leafs in the WJC.

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Old
12-17-2013, 11:41 AM
  #751
leafsfuture
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
At the time of the draft, I absolutely loved the Biggs selection and I was lukewarm about Percy, at best...now I feel the opposite way. One thing I've learned for sure, is trading up doesn't usually work out well. We traded up for Biggs and Schenn, both times we would have been better off staying where we were. When Burke offered Morrison a chance to move up to #4 in the 2012 draft Mo didn't waste a second in declining the move-up...think he's learned his lesson. I wonder if somebody has compiled the 1st round move-ups, and how they've done for their teams?
I tend to agree trading up doesnt always work out, however there are cases when you do it to avoid the risk of not getting the guy you want.

For example in 2012, Burke obviously wanted Rielly and he obviously thought the Isles might take him. I would not have minded at all if Burke had moved up a spot to get Morgan.

But yeah, looking back moving up to get Biggs was a bad move, especially because we knew there were guys with talent still available

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12-17-2013, 11:48 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
At the time of the draft, I absolutely loved the Biggs selection and I was lukewarm about Percy, at best...now I feel the opposite way. One thing I've learned for sure, is trading up doesn't usually work out well. We traded up for Biggs and Schenn, both times we would have been better off staying where we were. When Burke offered Morrison a chance to move up to #4 in the 2012 draft Mo didn't waste a second in declining the move-up...think he's learned his lesson. I wonder if somebody has compiled the 1st round move-ups, and how they've done for their teams?
Someone has, I think the results were that it's usually too rich a price to pay or something. Been awhile since I've seen it and I can't find the link. Although it worked out for the Sens in a huge way in 2008 when they essentially traded Chet Pickard and Taylor Beck for future Norris winner Erik Karlsson.

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12-17-2013, 12:11 PM
  #753
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In that same 2011 draft Detroit dealt their first round pick for Ottawa's 2nd and Chicago's 2nd (which Ottawa had). Ottawa selected Puempel, Detroit selected Jurco and Ouellet.

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12-17-2013, 01:52 PM
  #754
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i don't like trading up in the later rounders in the draft, because generally the talent levels out and you can get as good a player anyways. Whereas higher up in the draft 1 or 2 spots can make a big difference!

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12-18-2013, 04:34 AM
  #755
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Wanted Jurco so bad it hurt.

He has been fantastic, in his short stint with the Wings. His first NHL goal was a beauty. He and Tatar look like typical Wings Euros up front.

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12-18-2013, 01:47 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by CrankuptheSnakes View Post
Wanted Jurco so bad it hurt.

He has been fantastic, in his short stint with the Wings. His first NHL goal was a beauty. He and Tatar look like typical Wings Euros up front.
Very polised and not rushed? I fear of that with Reilly.

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12-18-2013, 02:35 PM
  #757
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I think Percy and Finn are really critical at this point in that if they develop well, we have a great young defensive core, which happens to be our biggest issue right now. If they don't develop, we have more searching to do.

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12-18-2013, 02:37 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by WTFMAN99 View Post
Very polised and not rushed? I fear of that with Reilly.

It would only be a issue if rielly showed he was not ready, and leafs still made him stay. However that is not the problem here, rielly showed he was ready and he made the team.


Like I say

Holding back a player is just as bad as rushing a player

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12-18-2013, 07:37 PM
  #759
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Not sure if it's been mentioned, or that it matters because Holland has been pretty good filling in at the NHL level, but Blacker has some pretty impressive stats with Norfolk. 3G 4a in 9gms

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Old
12-18-2013, 07:42 PM
  #760
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Sorry this is a trade we can't regret. Even if Blacker goes on to be Bobby Orr 2.0. He showed absolutely no progression any year. He looked progressively worse every year. I liked Blacker, but that guy was actually terrible for us.

He didn't just have consistency issues, he didn't even know what his game was. Sometimes he played stylistically similar to Neuf, sometimes stylistically similar to Gunnar, sometimes similar to Fraser, and 90% of the time he couldn't freaking make a pass. It amazes me this guy can even get a spoonful of food into his move with how bad he was at moving the puck.

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12-18-2013, 08:04 PM
  #761
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Sorry this is a trade we can't regret. Even if Blacker goes on to be Bobby Orr 2.0. He showed absolutely no progression any year. He looked progressively worse every year. I liked Blacker, but that guy was actually terrible for us.

He didn't just have consistency issues, he didn't even know what his game was. Sometimes he played stylistically similar to Neuf, sometimes stylistically similar to Gunnar, sometimes similar to Fraser, and 90% of the time he couldn't freaking make a pass. It amazes me this guy can even get a spoonful of food into his move with how bad he was at moving the puck.
..."If" he shows no signs of this apparent inconsistency with his new organization as time wears on then it begs the question: "Why the heck couldn't his previous organization do the same?"

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12-18-2013, 09:49 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Sorry this is a trade we can't regret.
Even if Blacker becomes a decent player, Holland is already better.
You can see these moments out there of what this guy can and should become.
Speed, creativity, net presence, great shot, scoring.

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12-18-2013, 10:59 PM
  #763
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Holland's got NHL level skill for sure.

He's even showed good defensive awareness.
Here's a good article that shows him getting involved in backside pressure and showing that awareness:
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...kside-pressure

He should be sent back down to the AHL when Bozak's back, keep grooming him there to round out his game, and then eventually move Bozak and replace him with Holland. Holland will probably never be a defacto #1C but neither is Bozak

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Old
12-19-2013, 09:50 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Sorry this is a trade we can't regret. Even if Blacker goes on to be Bobby Orr 2.0. He showed absolutely no progression any year. He looked progressively worse every year. I liked Blacker, but that guy was actually terrible for us.

He didn't just have consistency issues, he didn't even know what his game was. Sometimes he played stylistically similar to Neuf, sometimes stylistically similar to Gunnar, sometimes similar to Fraser, and 90% of the time he couldn't freaking make a pass. It amazes me this guy can even get a spoonful of food into his move with how bad he was at moving the puck.
He needed a new start. I'm glad to hear he's doing well. Hopefully he gets a chance in Anaheim.

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12-19-2013, 10:41 AM
  #765
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This Kessel trade is gonna haunt us for a long time. The 2 things we need most we could of had if we kept our picks. Seguin as our #1 C and we could of had Hamilton/Brodin.

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12-19-2013, 10:59 AM
  #766
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Originally Posted by LaPlante94 View Post
This Kessel trade is gonna haunt us for a long time. The 2 things we need most we could of had if we kept our picks. Seguin as our #1 C and we could of had Hamilton/Brodin.
Meh, i stand by my point that without Kessel on that team, the Leafs don't draft #2, they draft #1 and take Taylor Hall.

In either case the Leafs have Kadri. To be complete they need a vinny lecavalier size C more than they need a second small guy. In the case of Seguin you take Seguin, so i won't argue that... just that in the absence of being able to get this sort of player, you need a Gauthier down the middle, if he were to develop into a top-6. SIZE. The leafs are missing a top C but they are also missing SIZE.

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Old
12-19-2013, 11:47 AM
  #767
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Meh, i stand by my point that without Kessel on that team, the Leafs don't draft #2, they draft #1 and take Taylor Hall.

In either case the Leafs have Kadri. To be complete they need a vinny lecavalier size C more than they need a second small guy. In the case of Seguin you take Seguin, so i won't argue that... just that in the absence of being able to get this sort of player, you need a Gauthier down the middle, if he were to develop into a top-6. SIZE. The leafs are missing a top C but they are also missing SIZE.
I would have never considered Hall over Seguin. Equal upside, but Seguin plays a more valuable position. Personally viewed Hall as a guy who could score 40 IF he stopped skating super fast down the boards and shooting at the goalies chest six times a game. Obviously super-skilled but at the same time a bit predictable if he doesn't drive the net effectively. The knock on Seguin was that he at times was something of a perimeter guy. That is somewhat more tolerable due to playing center and being a bit more of a disher than shooter. But alas, I see the decision on both sides, but Seguin was hands down number one in my eyes.

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Old
12-19-2013, 12:36 PM
  #768
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Originally Posted by LaPlante94 View Post
This Kessel trade is gonna haunt us for a long time. The 2 things we need most we could of had if we kept our picks. Seguin as our #1 C and we could of had Hamilton/Brodin.
Judging by what happened to him at the end of his tenure in Boston, I think the Leafs made the right choice. If the partying rumours were true, could you imagine what he would have got up to if he had been drafted by his home team? When he got "home" (gms 3-4) wasn't it then that he started w/all the clubbing and coming to the rink the next day wearing the clothes from the last nite? Imagine what "Leaf Nation" does to him then.

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Old
12-19-2013, 12:43 PM
  #769
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Judging by what happened to him at the end of his tenure in Boston, I think the Leafs made the right choice. If the partying rumours were true, could you imagine what he would have got up to if he had been drafted by his home team? When he got "home" (gms 3-4) wasn't it then that he started w/all the clubbing and coming to the rink the next day wearing the clothes from the last nite? Imagine what "Leaf Nation" does to him then.
Who's to say the current leafs don't do the same things as Seguin. Boston is a team of alot of 30 year old prime players, in that atmosphere he sticks out like a sore thumb. Here he would be fitting in.

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Old
12-19-2013, 12:52 PM
  #770
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Originally Posted by Backhandshelf81 View Post
Holland's got NHL level skill for sure.

He's even showed good defensive awareness.
Here's a good article that shows him getting involved in backside pressure and showing that awareness:
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...kside-pressure

He should be sent back down to the AHL when Bozak's back, keep grooming him there to round out his game, and then eventually move Bozak and replace him with Holland. Holland will probably never be a defacto #1C but neither is Bozak
Holland's been a really good pickup for us. Good hands, moves well for a big guy and is a better two-way player than I thought. Reminds me a little of former leaf Tom Fergus.

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Old
12-19-2013, 12:54 PM
  #771
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I would have never considered Hall over Seguin. Equal upside, but Seguin plays a more valuable position. Personally viewed Hall as a guy who could score 40 IF he stopped skating super fast down the boards and shooting at the goalies chest six times a game. Obviously super-skilled but at the same time a bit predictable if he doesn't drive the net effectively. The knock on Seguin was that he at times was something of a perimeter guy. That is somewhat more tolerable due to playing center and being a bit more of a disher than shooter. But alas, I see the decision on both sides, but Seguin was hands down number one in my eyes.
Moot point, but if picking first we would have taken Hall.
Burke told Lowe on Behind the Draft, "you got the right guy"

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12-19-2013, 02:21 PM
  #772
theIceWookie
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Moot point, but if picking first we would have taken Hall.
Burke told Lowe on Behind the Draft, "you got the right guy"
The whole discussion should be a moot point. There's just too many what if's.

Who knows what happens if Kessel wasn't acquired.

He had no issue trading that pick, so might he have just gone somewhere else and used it in a trade?

Would the team respond differently without a player like Kessel coming onto the team, thereby changing the standings?

Would Seguin have developed in a different way than he did in Boston?

Would he have had similar issues, never reached his potential, and needed to be traded later on just like he was on the Bruins?

Could he have handled a losing atmosphere with intense media speculation and pressure compared to a winning atmosphere of Boston?

Would the Leafs have even picked Dougie Hamilton 9th overall? Maybe they really like Nathan Beaulieu? Or made a reach pick and things look not so good?

There are way to many what if's to ask and declare the Kessel deal a mistake. Can we not lay this dead horse to rest already?

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12-19-2013, 02:49 PM
  #773
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Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
The whole discussion should be a moot point. There's just too many what if's.

Who knows what happens if Kessel wasn't acquired.

He had no issue trading that pick, so might he have just gone somewhere else and used it in a trade?

Would the team respond differently without a player like Kessel coming onto the team, thereby changing the standings?

Would Seguin have developed in a different way than he did in Boston?

Would he have had similar issues, never reached his potential, and needed to be traded later on just like he was on the Bruins?

Could he have handled a losing atmosphere with intense media speculation and pressure compared to a winning atmosphere of Boston?

Would the Leafs have even picked Dougie Hamilton 9th overall? Maybe they really like Nathan Beaulieu? Or made a reach pick and things look not so good?

There are way to many what if's to ask and declare the Kessel deal a mistake. Can we not lay this dead horse to rest already?
I'm not really discussing in context of the Leafs. I just generally preferred Seguin to Hall.

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12-19-2013, 08:41 PM
  #774
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2 assists so far tonight for our 2nd rounder in 2012, Matt Finn.

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Old
12-19-2013, 09:43 PM
  #775
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Someone has, I think the results were that it's usually too rich a price to pay or something. Been awhile since I've seen it and I can't find the link. Although it worked out for the Sens in a huge way in 2008 when they essentially traded Chet Pickard and Taylor Beck for future Norris winner Erik Karlsson.
To be fair, Ottawa traded up for a prospect with great skating, vision, hockey IQ, and puck skills.

We traded up for a bruiser with so-so puck skills and skating.

Lesson? Trade up for skills that are difficult to develop, dont trade up just for size, because a lot of 17/18 year olds can add that muscle relatively easily over the following 3-5 years of development.

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