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Quincey and why hes bad?

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Old
11-10-2013, 01:43 PM
  #1
shultzyfeelinirie20
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Quincey and why hes bad?

how come he was so much more sucessful in LA and the Av's than he is here now i dont get it he was a much better top 4 for those teams than he is for us now can anyone explain why? i know its not cause of age or injuries so what else could it be?

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11-10-2013, 02:12 PM
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Because he's below-average in every facet of his game. He's as dumb as a brick. The only reason he succeeded in other places is because of monstrous amounts of PP time.

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11-10-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Because he's below-average in every facet of his game. He's as dumb as a brick. The only reason he succeeded in other places is because of monstrous amounts of PP time.

So he was effective with monstrous amounts of PP time? Yet the Wings PP is really lighting it up.


Something doesn't add up here.

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11-10-2013, 02:35 PM
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he's been pretty much the same. which makes that trade so stupid.

last year he gave up less goals and shots against than in la and colorado. both on es and pk. testament to zeta, dats, howard, babcock and luck. this year he's regressing to mean. well actually compensating so far as he has been giving a lot more shots and goals on net.

he's producing less points, probably bc babcock wants him to play more conservatively. also not used on pp and not in the same role.

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11-10-2013, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
Because he's below-average in every facet of his game. He's as dumb as a brick. The only reason he succeeded in other places is because of monstrous amounts of PP time.
Yup. That 2:22 of PP time he was getting in his last season with Colorado was ungodly. No wonder he put up the points.

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11-10-2013, 02:41 PM
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I really think there's a point where we have to consider how the players are used-- situations, their fit for the system, etc., and factor that into the "oh he's great" or "oh noz he sucks" analyses.


Why measure a defenseman's offensive output if he's told to stay at home? Why not consider the players' plus/minuses in general when the entire team (excepting 3 guys) cannot score goals? Ultimately it's not the fault of the 2 D on the ice when their forwards cannot get it done either.

This team can't score, and they're in the middle with being able to shut down scoring chances from the opposition. That needs to be taken into consideration.

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11-10-2013, 02:45 PM
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This team can't score, and they're in the middle with being able to shut down scoring chances from the opposition. That needs to be taken into consideration.
It is considered. But he's demonstrated zero offensive ability and consistently makes poor defensive decisions.

It's painfully obvious when DeKeyser looks so much better at all phases. Or Kindl being so much better in the offensive zone.

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11-10-2013, 02:51 PM
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It is considered. But he's demonstrated zero offensive ability and consistently makes poor defensive decisions.

It's painfully obvious when DeKeyser looks so much better at all phases. Or Kindl being so much better in the offensive zone.

Why does he have zero offensive ability in Detroit? The person to whom I was responding said he did extremely well on two other teams because he had a lot of PP time. You don't get results from a player with zero offensive ability if he gets PP time. Something isn't adding up.

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11-10-2013, 02:53 PM
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quincey is bad because he isnt good

never has been and never will be

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11-10-2013, 02:53 PM
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Just to add some numbers. After 18 GP, the Wings are 18th in the NHL in G/G, at 2.5 G/G.

They're 15th in GA/G, with 2.61.

That's not a very desirable goal differential, for starters. At 5-on-5, they're 14th with 1.03 GF/GA differential.

20th in rank on the PP with a 16% efficiency. Top ten teams range from 20-28%.

PK is slightly better at 84.8%, which is 10th in rank league-wide.

More telling perhaps, they're 21st in Shots per game, 29.6; and Shots allowed also 21st rank in the NHL, at 30.9.

At best-- they're just trading chances, and losing on those chances slightly more frequently than winning.
^^
I'm going to move this post to the Why the Team Sucks thread. Just leaving a notation here.

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11-10-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I really think there's a point where we have to consider how the players are used-- situations, their fit for the system, etc., and factor that into the "oh he's great" or "oh noz he sucks" analyses.


Why measure a defenseman's offensive output if he's told to stay at home? Why not consider the players' plus/minuses in general when the entire team (excepting 3 guys) cannot score goals? Ultimately it's not the fault of the 2 D on the ice when their forwards cannot get it done either.

This team can't score, and they're in the middle with being able to shut down scoring chances from the opposition. That needs to be taken into consideration.
Well, KFQ's sporting a sweet -9 so far with only 3 assists in 18 games. So whether we want to evaluate him as an offensive or defensive defenseman, he's subpar.

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11-10-2013, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why does he have zero offensive ability in Detroit? The person to whom I was responding said he did extremely well on two other teams because he had a lot of PP time. You don't get results from a player with zero offensive ability if he gets PP time. Something isn't adding up.
Players regress, especially offensively. Look at Goligoski in Dallas. About the same age, too. Or Erik Johnson. Sure if I looked I could find a good number to join Quincey.

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11-10-2013, 03:17 PM
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I do think part of it is that Quincey can't hang with our system. It's not simple enough for him. When things get complicated, he flounders. And our system, while not rocket science, is certainly more complicated that many, including CO's.

In short, Kyle Quincey is stupid

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11-10-2013, 03:19 PM
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Why did LA and Col let him go? Maybe there were cap reasons or guys coming up but part of it must have been that just isn't very good. Personally I think he has 0 hockey sense.

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11-10-2013, 03:20 PM
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There's something about the way Detroit is currently constructed, whether it's the system or it's just the level of talent on the ice... Quincey produced everywhere else except in Detroit. Weiss produced just fine in Florida. Tootoo was fantastic in Nashville. Samuelsson produced in Vancouver and Florida. Filppula and Hudler leave Detroit, and both of them have produced with new roles on new teams. What is it about Detroit that is killing production? Are these guys mis-used? Do they have a chance to really succeed here? What's the problem, exactly? Quincey may not be a great player, in fact, he may be as awful or even worse than his stats indicate, but why did Detroit acquire him with such a high draft pick if they weren't planning to play to his strengths? Why would they sign Samuelsson if they weren't planning to actually utilize Samuelsson for the two years he was signed? What was the point in bringing Tootoo here if you can't even use him correctly?

I don't know, I think there could be a problem with the current system if every single guy just about that the team brings in just can't seem to actually help the team. These are all guys who have been able to help someone in the past, most cases even just one year previously... there's just something weird about the situation in Detroit.

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11-10-2013, 03:27 PM
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Quincey is bad because he cannot think the game consistently at the NHL level. There are no physical or practical aspects of the game in which he is below average. He's no speed demon but he's not slow either. His passing is at worst average (speaking of course about the physical pass itself, not when the pass is used.) His shot is fine. He hits on occasion, he can stick check. It's the consistency of his mental game that is the problem.

Let's quantify hockey IQ on a scale of 1-100.

I would rate Datsyuk as a consistent 90. Some games he knocks your socks off with a 95, others he slows down a bit with an 85. But consistently excellent.

Quincey, on the other hand, has hockey IQ consistency issues. On the best of days, he's probably a 75. Not an elite talent by any means, but no scrub either. The problem is, some shifts (or games), he dips down to a 30 and makes incredibly high risk low reward passes that often lead to very dangerous turnovers or he stops covering his man, etc. And he does it at the worst of times. A giveaway is never good, but it's nothing compared to a Quincey giveaway. A normal giveaway might mean an errant pass is recovered by the opposition in the neutral zone. A Quincey giveaway might mean that the opponent will receive a tape to tape pass wide open in the slot for a golden scoring opportunity.

The reason I want Quincey off the team is not because he sucks. He plays for (sometimes) long stretches where he seems like a perfectly acceptable NHL defenseman. The problem is his habit of disconnecting at the worst of times that often leads to costly mistakes.


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11-10-2013, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyleftlx View Post
There's something about the way Detroit is currently constructed, whether it's the system or it's just the level of talent on the ice... Quincey produced everywhere else except in Detroit. Weiss produced just fine in Florida. Tootoo was fantastic in Nashville. Samuelsson produced in Vancouver and Florida. Filppula and Hudler leave Detroit, and both of them have produced with new roles on new teams. What is it about Detroit that is killing production? Are these guys mis-used? Do they have a chance to really succeed here? What's the problem, exactly? Quincey may not be a great player, in fact, he may be as awful or even worse than his stats indicate, but why did Detroit acquire him with such a high draft pick if they weren't planning to play to his strengths? Why would they sign Samuelsson if they weren't planning to actually utilize Samuelsson for the two years he was signed? What was the point in bringing Tootoo here if you can't even use him correctly?

I don't know, I think there could be a problem with the current system if every single guy just about that the team brings in just can't seem to actually help the team. These are all guys who have been able to help someone in the past, most cases even just one year previously... there's just something weird about the situation in Detroit.
It's not a huge mystery. You have a GM who likes retreads and small puck possession players and a coach who demands size and "heaviness" and wants to dump and grind. Evidence of the disconnect between those two has been all over the place for years.

This team needs to decide what it wants to be and how it wants to play and act accordingly, but they aren't doing so. We need an identity again.

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11-10-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyleftlx View Post
There's something about the way Detroit is currently constructed, whether it's the system or it's just the level of talent on the ice... Quincey produced everywhere else except in Detroit. Weiss produced just fine in Florida. Tootoo was fantastic in Nashville. Samuelsson produced in Vancouver and Florida. Filppula and Hudler leave Detroit, and both of them have produced with new roles on new teams. What is it about Detroit that is killing production? Are these guys mis-used? Do they have a chance to really succeed here? What's the problem, exactly? Quincey may not be a great player, in fact, he may be as awful or even worse than his stats indicate, but why did Detroit acquire him with such a high draft pick if they weren't planning to play to his strengths? Why would they sign Samuelsson if they weren't planning to actually utilize Samuelsson for the two years he was signed? What was the point in bringing Tootoo here if you can't even use him correctly?

I don't know, I think there could be a problem with the current system if every single guy just about that the team brings in just can't seem to actually help the team. These are all guys who have been able to help someone in the past, most cases even just one year previously... there's just something weird about the situation in Detroit.
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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
It's not a huge mystery. You have a GM who likes retreads and small puck possession players and a coach who demands size and "heaviness" and wants to dump and grind. Evidence of the disconnect between those two has been all over the place for years.

This team needs to decide what it wants to be and how it wants to play and act accordingly, but they aren't doing so. We need an identity again.
I think this is spot on. Even great coaches get tuned out as well. Something's not working. The PP is worse than ever.


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Let's quantify hockey IQ on a scale of 1-100.

I would rate Datsyuk as a consistent 90. Some games he knocks your socks off with a 95, others he slows down a bit with an 85. But consistently excellent.
While you may be adding a quantitative metric, it's still completely subjective-- meaning based on opinions/perceptions of the game. To get a meaningful number, you have to define it carefully and then support it with numbers that have been proven to actually contribute to that figure.

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11-10-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
quincey is bad because he isnt good

never has been and never will be
Lock it up.

Mystery solved.

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11-10-2013, 04:11 PM
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While you may be adding a quantitative metric, it's still completely subjective-- meaning based on opinions/perceptions of the game. To get a meaningful number, you have to define it carefully and then support it with numbers that have been proven to actually contribute to that figure.
Ok fine.

Hockey IQ being defined as Hockey IQ = On-ice decisions + results of those decisions.

Kyle Quincey:

18 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 3 pts, -9, Average TOI 20:30.

But seriously, hockey is not baseball. Not everything can be accurately quantified. The eye test has value in hockey. If the eye test didn't have value, it would mean a player like Datsyuk never would have been drafted. Backwater Russian leagues don't keep the most reliable nor accessible stats. It took a scout to go watch him play.

You can't just dismiss it as subjective perception. I didn't just 'perceive' Quincey give away the puck in OT leading to Tampa Bay's GWG.


[EDIT] Just one more thing. Kronwall is a +9, Ericsson +3, DeKeyser +6, even Lashoff has an even +/-.

Smith is a -7 and Kindl is a -4. We know from watching the games that Smith and Kindl have had decent games when not paired with Quincey. Kindl is usually not with him. Smith has spent time with Kronwall. The defensemen that Quincey plays with get dragged down. The guys he's played with both have minus'. The guys he hasn't are all either even or plus'. Quincey is the common denominator. Again, Quincey's not terrible all of the time. It's just that the 99% of the game you played decently is irrelevant when you make a brain fart that costs your team the game.


Last edited by The Zermanator: 11-10-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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11-10-2013, 04:17 PM
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There's something about the way Detroit is currently constructed, whether it's the system or it's just the level of talent on the ice... Quincey produced everywhere else except in Detroit.
He was given legit PP time elsewhere. Nothing else.

LAK 2008-09, 72 games, 10 even strentgh points, 29 power-play points. 3:31 avg PP IT (5th most in team = 1st PP quarterback)
COL 2009-10, 79 games, 17 even strentgh points, 11 power-play points. 3:07 avg PP IT (5th most in team = 1st PP quarterback)
COL 2010-11, 21 games,, 1 even strength point,, 0 power-play points.. 2:11 avg PP IT. Injury riddled season.
COL 2011-12, 54 games, 12 even strentgh points, 9 power-play points. 2:22 avg PP IT (2nd most in team = 1st PP quarterback)
trade to Detroit
DET 2011-12, 18 games, 2 ESP, 1 PPP. 2:16 avg PP IT (9th most in team = 2nd PP quarterback)
DET 2012-13, 36 games, 2 ESP, 1 PPP. 1:15 avg PP IT (15th most in team = Defensive defenceman, with some injury replacements duties on PP)
DET 2013-14, 18 games, 3 ESP, 0 PPP. 0:42 avg PP IT (14th most in team = Defensive defenceman, with some injury replacement duties on PP)

That's his career in a nutshell. This seasons 3 ESP/18 games almost matches with his career high 17 even strength points in 79 games.

Quincey's average career even strentgh production since the 2008-09 season has been 47 points in 298 games. = 0.158 ESP/game. This season rate is 3 ESP/18 games = 0.166 ESP/game. He is what he is.

Quincey's career projection as Red Wings prospect was a defensive defenceman, but some other organizations got some PP skill out from him. But he has never been a puckmoving or point-producing defenceman at 5-on-5 hockey.


Last edited by Henkka: 11-10-2013 at 04:24 PM.
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11-10-2013, 04:20 PM
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Quincey is bad because he is a bad player.

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11-10-2013, 04:34 PM
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Ok fine.

Hockey IQ being defined as Hockey IQ = On-ice decisions + results of those decisions.

Kyle Quincey:

18 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 3 pts, -9, Average TOI 20:30.

But seriously, hockey is not baseball. Not everything can be accurately quantified. The eye test has value in hockey. If the eye test didn't have value, it would mean a player like Datsyuk never would have been drafted. Backwater Russian leagues don't keep the most reliable nor accessible stats. It took a scout to go watch him play.

You can't just dismiss it as subjective perception. I didn't just 'perceive' Quincey give away the puck in OT leading to Tampa Bay's GWG.


[EDIT] Just one more thing. Kronwall is a +9, Ericsson +3, DeKeyser +6, even Lashoff has an even +/-.

Smith is a -7 and Kindl is a -4. We know from watching the games that Smith and Kindl have had decent games when not paired with Quincey. Kindl is usually not with him. Smith has spent time with Kronwall. The defensemen that Quincey plays with get dragged down. The guys he's played with both have minus'. The guys he hasn't are all either even or plus'. Quincey is the common denominator. Again, Quincey's not terrible all of the time. It's just that the 99% of the game you played decently is irrelevant when you make a brain fart that costs your team the game.
This eye test is more than just random.

Quincey has by himself made bad choices in THREE overtime games costing us the game.
Look at this stats, and he is also clearly ONE of our worst defenders.

Quincey used to produce points on the PP. Who cares… he isn't our PP guy here, and he sucks 5on5 for making offence.. So do many of our other D-men… but our others are not nearly as highly paid.
Our other defenders are also very young. Quincey has no real excuse.

Look, I am not saying Quincey is worthless. Or that he doesn't provide some talent. But for the most part we could replace him with a younger kid, and not be that much worse.

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11-10-2013, 04:41 PM
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Look, I am not saying Quincey is worthless. Or that he doesn't provide some talent. But for the most part we could replace him with a younger kid, and not be that much worse.
I think "he is gonna test free agency" at next summer and we move on. We replace his roster spot with a kid like Ouellet.

If Quincey was targeted to be that defensive defenceman we needed because Stuart was leaving, that problem does not exist anymore. Jonathan Ericsson has grown to be that "Stuart" and Danny DeKeyser will very probably be that secondary defensive guy Quincey was projected to be.

So, let's move on.

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11-10-2013, 04:49 PM
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I think "he is gonna test free agency" at next summer and we move on. We replace his roster spot with a kid like Ouellet.

If Quincey was targeted to be that defensive defenceman we needed because Stuart was leaving, that problem does not exist anymore. Jonathan Ericsson has grown to be that "Stuart" and Danny DeKeyser will very probably be that secondary defensive guy Quincey was projected to be.

So, let's move on.
There's no way to move on until the off-season unless KH can unload KFQ in a trade prior to the deadline (and I can't imagine the picks/prospects we'd have to add to get some GM to take Q off our hands).

Until he's off the roster, he's going to continue to turn the puck over and rack up the minuses. Kenny swung and missed badly if he thought he was bringing in any sort of replacement for Stuart's role with Quincey.

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