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Old
11-22-2013, 10:24 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Darth Vitale View Post
Barring injuries I have a feeling Elmer will spend the year in WBS. Not as any sort of punishment but I think because the team didn't like the results they got by having him up here half the time and down there half the time.
Yes. A 26-7 record in the regular season and 3-0 in the playoffs must have soured the note on Despres. All advanced statistics also indicate that clearly he was a problem relative to the others.

Wait, am I doing this wrong?




Despres is in the minors because Maatta rocked and he could be sent down. I think any other explanations are simply rationalizations.

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11-22-2013, 11:40 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Yes. A 26-7 record in the regular season and 3-0 in the playoffs must have soured the note on Despres. All advanced statistics also indicate that clearly he was a problem relative to the others.

Wait, am I doing this wrong?




Despres is in the minors because Maatta rocked and he could be sent down. I think any other explanations are simply rationalizations.
I agree with this. I'm sure they've got him down there working on things like consistency and playing a defense-first game, but if Maatta hadn't played his way onto this team, then I'm sure Despres would be up.

And, until the right deal comes along for Niskanen I doubt anything changes. Especially after Scuderi comes back.

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11-22-2013, 11:43 AM
  #178
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The right deal is out there for Niskanen. We choose not to do it.

The right deal is for a draft pick, so that Despres can come up and we can save some cap space. Otherwise, it's a moot point really.

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11-22-2013, 11:55 AM
  #179
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has simon despres given up on the penguins? is he just happier in wbs? does he just have more of an eastern pa mindset?

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11-22-2013, 01:31 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The right deal is out there for Niskanen. We choose not to do it.

The right deal is for a draft pick, so that Despres can come up and we can save some cap space. Otherwise, it's a moot point really.
But that means having Despres and Maatta up here together this young, Bylsma and Martin would never accept that

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11-22-2013, 02:41 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No reason why any of them couldn't be dealt for a comparable wing prospect, if we were so inclined. And we'd be no further behind than if we'd drafted the wing ourselves.
True except we haven't been so inclined and likely won't be in the near future. When is the last time this team has traded for a winger prospect other than Tangradi?

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11-22-2013, 02:47 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by BumFortyOne View Post
Also, Bylsma was playing Bortuzzo over Engelland just a few short weeks ago. So it's not like it's a conspiracy where Bylsma refuses to play Bortuzzo when he has Engelland available.

It's one of those things where as long as the team is winning why change the lineup? Maybe it's not fair but I'm sure we'll see Bortuzzo back in the lineup after the next loss , worst case.
Um well the team wasn't winning when they changed the lineup. Bortuzzo made a bad play that led to a goal in a game where we got blown out and has sat ever since. We lost the next two games and 3 of 4 after he was sat. Whatever helps you justify this stupid decision though.

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11-22-2013, 02:51 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
True except we haven't been so inclined and likely won't be in the near future. When is the last time this team has traded for a winger prospect other than Tangradi?
Does Nils Ekman count? How about Niklas Nordgren?

Ummm, it's been a while yeah.

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11-24-2013, 02:31 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87;74776031[B
]Scuderi's cheaper than Martin, and he brings something few young defensemen can replace him with. Martin's game is what we're hoping guys like Maatta and Despres (to name two) will eventually match, so to me it makes more sense to keep Scuderi and let Martin go. [/B]

Again, it's mostly because of the cap and what we have in the pipeline to replace Martin with.
Normally I would agree with you, except we have Scotty F*in' Harrington. This guy is/will be Rob Scuderi++, and he'll be at that level in the NHL within 1-2 more years. So I have no concerns whatsoever about not having a guy to fill Scuderi's role so soon. In fact, you can't ask for a better (and I mean BETTER, as in better player and more rounded, versatile, skilled, and even smarter) player than Scuderi. He just needs a bit of seasoning to be ready.

Martin, OTOH, brings something more unique, and I actually feel with guys like Maatta, Despres, Dumo and Pouliot, we have guys who may one day be able to provide that, but that will be further off into the future, and having Martin here would be a fantastic mentor for them now. That's what makes the Harrington/Scuderi thing so great, because Harry is SO close to being able to fill that role. AND, while Martin is more expensive against the cap right now, if the cap keeps going up over the next couple of years, the difference between the 2 will be negligible, if we traded Scuderi and kept Martn.


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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
You honestly think DB will give him top 4 time nest year w/o playing this year?

Not playing Des this year will justify re-signing Orpik because he Des doesn't have enough experience.

Again, normally I would agree with you, except: (A) precedent, with Maatta this year, would suggest that this team is willing to give a young Dman the opportunity o play a significant role if their play justifies it; and (B) I'm not sure we really have a choice. We will be so close to the cap for next season, we are going to have to fill in Orpik's spot with one of Despres or Dumoulin. And I have no doubt that at least one of those 2 guys can step up and prove worthy to the challenge. And worst case scenario, if that were not to happen, we just use Harrington. But I'm quite confident about the former.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The right deal is out there for Niskanen. We choose not to do it.

The right deal is for a draft pick, so that Despres can come up and we can save some cap space. Otherwise, it's a moot point really.

I'm not sure the right deal is simply to move Nisky for draft picks just to bring Despres up right now. I think Nisky can be had, but I also think Shero is holding out to see: (A) how Despres vs. Dumo perfom over the next little bit, and (B) he may wait till closer to the deadline to or when a team is in dire straights to get a better return than if he just took the best available offer that was on the table today. That is what I call smart asset management, and that is simply what I call smart and responsible management in general. In the meantime, it appears our young guys in WBS are all doing and developing A-OK until the are ready, and deserving, of the call up to the big club.

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Old
11-24-2013, 09:24 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
True except we haven't been so inclined and likely won't be in the near future. When is the last time this team has traded for a winger prospect other than Tangradi?
Hasn't happened since we dealt for Tangradi. We've also only had this many quality defense prospects at the pro level since last year, when one was dealt for a vet.

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11-24-2013, 01:32 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
However, I do think that perhaps his "untouchable" moniker is now gone and if the right trade offer was made he's outta here.
There never was an "untouchable" status; that is 100% HFB imagination at work. We assume it (with lots of guys) because we don't want to see certain players traded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Yes. A 26-7 record in the regular season and 3-0 in the playoffs must have soured the note on Despres. All advanced statistics also indicate that clearly he was a problem relative to the others.

Wait, am I doing this wrong?




Despres is in the minors because Maatta rocked and he could be sent down. I think any other explanations are simply rationalizations.
You're not doing anything wrong except assuming the coaches and GM rate a rookie defenseman based on the team record while said defenseman is in the lineup (they don't most likely -- they look for specific improvements in his game and specific weaknesses). Also if they were impressed with those stats you tout, it would've been just as easy to send a teenager with zero experience back to London without risk of losing him.

Elmer was sent down because there are elements of his game they expected to be better, AND because they could send him there to improve it without losing him. To me the WBS non-waiver eligible thing was a peripheral to the situation. A convenience.

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11-24-2013, 02:10 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Darth Vitale View Post
There never was an "untouchable" status; that is 100% HFB imagination at work. We assume it (with lots of guys) because we don't want to see certain players traded.

EXACTLY! Kudos to you, Darth Vitale. Despres' name HAS been mentioned in trade rumors; mentioned in passing once on TSN, for example, who also over the last few years mentioned Talbot, Kennedy and Tangradi as all being on the block, as well -- and the latter 2 guys got traded, and the former not re-signed.


Of course, a player can play their way into or out of trade-able status, and it also depends on what is being offered. The Pens may be adamant that they want to keep Despres over Dumoulin or vice-versa, but it may depend on just how big their preference or their perceived gap between those 2 are, and what other teams offer for each, which could sway them to move the guy they wanted to keep, etc.


The shoe will drop eventually and one or more Dmen will get traded, whether it's one of the veteran UFAs (Orpik or Nisky) and/or one of the prospects (Despres, Dumoulin, or perhaps even Samuelsson). Shero is probably sitting tight, because he's really not in any rush, and waiting for an appropriate offer for whatever player they're willing to move.

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11-24-2013, 02:25 PM
  #188
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Of all of our D prospects, I tend to think Depres has the highest upside. We have guys who play with an edge, guys who can move the puck, and steady two way prospects. But his combination of those qualities, and the size you can't learn are a rare combination.

The one thing Depres currently lacks is consistency, and potentially his preparation in off-seasons. He's learning consistency at WBS, and hopefully learning his lesson about the importance of the off-season and hard work through the Maatta experience. And at the same time, Maatta is gaining experience that will be extremely beneficial for his growth, and which he cannot gain in the A this year.

I think Maatta, Depres, and Harrington are all set to play prominent roles for us over the next few years, and I think Bort and Dumo are more likely to be used as trade chips. Not that the latter two can't grow into solid NHL defenders. I just think the former all easily have top 4, and quite possibly top 2 potential, whereas I can't see Bort as more than a tweener 4-5 at best, and Dumo as a solid 4 at best. I love Bort on a 3rd pairing long term, but he may be the odd man out with our logjam.

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Old
11-24-2013, 08:06 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Yes. A 26-7 record in the regular season and 3-0 in the playoffs must have soured the note on Despres. All advanced statistics also indicate that clearly he was a problem relative to the others.

Wait, am I doing this wrong?




Despres is in the minors because Maatta rocked and he could be sent down. I think any other explanations are simply rationalizations.
Did you forget that Niskanen is top-4 and that Letang was out?

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11-24-2013, 08:46 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Darth Vitale View Post
There never was an "untouchable" status; that is 100% HFB imagination at work. We assume it (with lots of guys) because we don't want to see certain players traded.




You're not doing anything wrong except assuming the coaches and GM rate a rookie defenseman based on the team record while said defenseman is in the lineup (they don't most likely -- they look for specific improvements in his game and specific weaknesses). Also if they were impressed with those stats you tout, it would've been just as easy to send a teenager with zero experience back to London without risk of losing him.

Elmer was sent down because there are elements of his game they expected to be better, AND because they could send him there to improve it without losing him. To me the WBS non-waiver eligible thing was a peripheral to the situation. A convenience.
Http://blog.triblive.com/chipped-ice...#axzz2lcYbVIeF

I remember shero stated this last March it was when cbj was in town. I suppose there were some inquiries about simon. The root sports announcer reported that shero had said despres was not someone he would trade. I can do more googling but it was reported by other media.

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11-24-2013, 09:07 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
Http://blog.triblive.com/chipped-ice...#axzz2lcYbVIeF

I remember shero stated this last March it was when cbj was in town. I suppose there were some inquiries about simon. The root sports announcer reported that shero had said despres was not someone he would trade. I can do more googling but it was reported by other media.
I wouldn't put too much stock in THAT. Yeah, he said it. But, if he'd traded him, then he'd have said something like 'Simon isn't a guy who I envisioned myself trading, but when you have a chance to get a player like _____ . . .'

That quote is like a GM who says 'I like my team as it is' and then proceeds to make 3 deals involving a lot of futures for 3 guys who the coach can misuse.

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11-25-2013, 07:44 AM
  #192
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If I remember correctly, Joe Morrow was called untradeable, too.

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11-25-2013, 07:58 AM
  #193
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If I remember correctly, Joe Morrow was called untradeable, too.
....by HFB

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11-25-2013, 08:06 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Hasn't happened since we dealt for Tangradi. We've also only had this many quality defense prospects at the pro level since last year, when one was dealt for a vet.
So we will continue to deal them for vets? I'm not sure I see your point. There's a pie in the sky positive out there somewhere, it's just clouded out by reality.

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11-25-2013, 09:17 AM
  #195
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....by HFB
I meant by Shero. Like I said, though, that could be a fault memory and it's true that a lot of stuff does turn into "HFB said so it must've been".

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11-25-2013, 09:24 AM
  #196
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I wouldn't put too much stock in THAT. Yeah, he said it. But, if he'd traded him, then he'd have said something like 'Simon isn't a guy who I envisioned myself trading, but when you have a chance to get a player like _____ . . .'

That quote is like a GM who says 'I like my team as it is' and then proceeds to make 3 deals involving a lot of futures for 3 guys who the coach can misuse.
well there was a fair amount of chatter around this last spring. I know the root sports announcers during the game used the word untouchable.
There was other twitter chatter about how shero said that Despres would not be traded. https://twitter.com/MikeColligan/sta...83355676082178

I know I'm not finding the smoking gun per se. But it was generally accepted by the annoucers/beat writers during that time frame that Shero had communicated that Despres would not be traded and was in fact untouchable. Untouchable of course means that massive overpayment would certainly result in him being gone.

So perhaps the right terminology (even though annoucers used "untouchable") was that last March the only way Simon Despres would get traded is if someone wanted to massively over pay for him.

I argue that that is no longer the case they wouldn't give him away, but for the right trade they would do it. (speculation of course)

I do not believe Management has given up on him, they would be foolish to do so as Defensemen of that size with those wheels and hands are uncommon to say the least.

But at the very least the Pens management are not pleased with where he is right now, which far different then given up on him.

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11-25-2013, 09:33 AM
  #197
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Yeah, I wouldn't put much stock in what Ray Shero says. He said he wouldn't trade Ryan Whitney and later said he wouldn't trade Alex Goligoski. Things change. A player you can't pass up (James Neal) gets offered to you or in 2009 when Gonchar finally returned from injury in February and less than 2 weeks later they traded Ryan Whitney for help up front because they had an excess of D-Men and needed a guy like Kunitz for the forward group.

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11-25-2013, 07:17 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The right deal is out there for Niskanen. We choose not to do it.

The right deal is for a draft pick, so that Despres can come up and we can save some cap space. Otherwise, it's a moot point really.
No.
The right deal for Nisky is a back up goalie if Vokoun is done or a gritty 3rd liner or a top 6 forward package.

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11-25-2013, 07:43 PM
  #199
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Engo showing how playing him over Des is the right choice tonight!

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11-28-2013, 10:07 PM
  #200
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The Penguins made it clear to Despres that improving his defensive work was imperative if he wanted to return to the NHL. In fact, the Wilkes-Barre coaching staff stressed defense so much that Despres, probably the team's most gifted offensive player, didn't play on the power play until the 13th game.

“I've learned that I have the ability for a two-way game,” Despres said. “Down there, I was forcing myself to play good defensively. It's probably the first time I've ever really done that, focused completely on defense.”

Despres was plus-13 in 17 games for the AHL Penguins while playing significant minutes against the opposition's best offensive players.

“Switching your way of thinking to defense isn't always the easiest thing to do,” Guerin said. “But you know what? Simon went down there, and, to be honest, he did great.”

The game seemingly always came easy for Despres. For once, he has taught himself how to do things the hard way.

“I've learned to stay within myself,” he said. “They had me in big spots. I liked being the go-to guy down there. It was fun.”

He suddenly appears back on the Penguins' radar.

Bylsma made it clear the Penguins are eager to see how Despres performs with defensemen Paul Martin and Rob Scuderi out for a few weeks.

“The opportunity for him is going to be significant,” Bylsma said. “The consistency he can play with is something that we need.”
http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2m0GwlePC

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