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Switzerland voting Sunday on a MAXimum wage

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01-05-2014, 04:49 AM
  #201
Do Make Say Think
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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
I think in terms of political power, the "obscenely rich" matter quite a bit, I mean a single $20 million dollar donation could have a huge impact. If someone else is trying to get donations from grassroots supporters, it would take 1 million donors each giving $20 just to match that single donation. In the last US election, there were many individuals who each donated millions of dollars, and a handful who donated $20 million+.
They lost though (I mean the ones who contributed to Romney's campaign): the people who opt out failed to get their way

I think they matter but that, at the end of the day, in a democracy money only gets you so far in politics (which is very, very, very far but maybe not quite all the way)

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01-07-2014, 05:47 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I've never met and owner of a company that works 16 hours a day. I've met one employer who worked a lot and he was very modest. He paid people well and put revenue into the company.

Most owners have a few meetings during the day and then go home or something. They just always have their phones on. But who doesn't when you're in management.
Competant managers don't. Sounds like you haven't been around very many of them.

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01-07-2014, 09:57 AM
  #203
Troy McClure
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I've never met and owner of a company that works 16 hours a day. I've met one employer who worked a lot and he was very modest. He paid people well and put revenue into the company.

Most owners have a few meetings during the day and then go home or something. They just always have their phones on. But who doesn't when you're in management.
Most of my clients are small to mid size businesses, and with one exception, their owners all work as hard or harder than any of their employees.

Even the one exception is a guy who did that for 40 years and is now mostly retired, but he's not lazy. He spent his whole pre-60 adulthood working for and then running the family business. He grew it to the point where it now employs 50 people.

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01-07-2014, 10:17 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Krut View Post
Competant managers don't. Sounds like you haven't been around very many of them.
Competent... managers?

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01-07-2014, 12:07 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I've never met and owner of a company that works 16 hours a day. I've met one employer who worked a lot and he was very modest. He paid people well and put revenue into the company.

Most owners have a few meetings during the day and then go home or something. They just always have their phones on. But who doesn't when you're in management.

Anywho, specialists are hard to come by and make a hospital what it is. Hospital managers just need to manage.
Quote:
Elon Musk: Work twice as hard as others
Entrepreneurs need to work 80 to 100 hours a week


How does Elon Musk pull off being the chief executive of both Tesla Motors and SpaceX, chairman of SolarCity, philanthropist through his Musk Foundation, which recently provided aid to the Gulf Region, and father to five boys? He works twice as hard as the average guy.

If other people are putting in 40 hours in a week, and you're putting in 100, you will achieve in four months, what it takes them a year to achieve. That's the type of work ethic an entrepreneur needs to have, according to Elon, in this segment, called "Lesson Learned."

This is the final interview in my four-part interview series with the founder and CEO of Tesla Motors and SpaceX. Watch the short interview to hear his lessons.
http://vator.tv/news/2010-12-23-elon...hard-as-others

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01-07-2014, 12:11 PM
  #206
Ugmo
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Originally Posted by Clive Bixby View Post
Sounds like nonsense to me. First, he basically runs two organizations? Well then yeah, he's going to have to work harder than if he only ran one. Second, at what point do you get diminishing returns from working too many hours because you don't sleep enough to be able to concentrate? He works 14.29 hours a day, 7 days a week? Either he's lying or he's almost certainly not able to work as effectively as if he worked fewer hours.

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01-07-2014, 12:14 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Sounds like nonsense to me. First, he basically runs two organizations? Well then yeah, he's going to have to work harder than if he only ran one. Second, at what point do you get diminishing returns from working too many hours because you don't sleep enough to be able to concentrate? He works 14.29 hours a day, 7 days a week? Either he's lying or he's almost certainly not able to work as effectively as if he worked fewer hours.
You obviously have no idea how hard it is to break into the car industry. You should read up on the troubles Tesla had...and still have.

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01-07-2014, 12:17 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Clive Bixby View Post
You obviously have no idea how hard it is to break into the car industry. You should read up on the troubles Tesla had...and still have.
This is a total strawman, and doesn't address my last post. I'm not saying people shouldn't or don't have to work hard, I'm saying that when you work 100 hours a week you cannot work as effectively as if you worked fewer hours. Seriously, this guy is claiming he works over 14 hours a day 7 days a week? Or he takes weekends off and works 20 hours a day? That sounds like complete bull ****, sorry.

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01-07-2014, 12:20 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
This is a total strawman, and doesn't address my last post. I'm not saying people shouldn't or don't have to work hard, I'm saying that when you work 100 hours a week you cannot work as effectively as if you worked fewer hours. Seriously this guy is claiming he works over 14 hours a day 7 days a week? Or he takes weekends off and works 20 hours a day? That sounds like completely bull ****, sorry.
And he didn't say he works 100 hours every week. If he averages about 80 but has had to up to 100 on certain weeks it means he isn't lying. MarkGio asserted that company owners come in for a few meetings a day then leave, which is complete nonsense.

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01-07-2014, 12:22 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Clive Bixby View Post
And he didn't say he works 100 hours every week. If he averages about 80 but has had to up to 100 on certain weeks it means he isn't lying. MarkGio asserted that company owners come in for a few meetings a day then leave, which is complete nonsense.
So your anecdotes trump his anecdotes? Gotcha.

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01-07-2014, 12:31 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
So your anecdotes trump his anecdotes? Gotcha.
If you know the troubles Tesla has had it is completely conceivable that he worked 80 hours a week so the company could succeed. It seems to me like those arguing for a maximum salary have a horrible or mediocre work ethic. And with almost 100% certainty they've never tried to run a company.

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01-07-2014, 12:43 PM
  #212
Ugmo
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Originally Posted by Clive Bixby View Post
If you know the troubles Tesla has had it is completely conceivable that he worked 80 hours a week so the company could succeed. It seems to me like those arguing for a maximum salary have a horrible or mediocre work ethic. And with almost 100% certainty they've never tried to run a company.
Okay, so even if he did consistently put in an 80-hour work week, are you saying this is typical for a CEO, rather than an outlier?

On top of which, your anecdote doesn't even necessarily contradict MarkGio's anecdote. The Tesla CEO may well spend half that time at home with his kids, with his cellphone on so that he's available in case the dung hits the fan at work, and then regard that as hours worked. It's not like the guy is breaking granite for 14 hours a day.

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01-07-2014, 12:56 PM
  #213
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I don't think Elon Musk is the best example of CEOs working ultra-long hours.

As far as entrepreneurs go, he's the definition of an outlier. Most entrepreneurs are lucky if they get one moderate win in their career. He's gotten a huge win with eBay and now several extremely high-profile ventures all at the same time.

I've also heard that some of Elon's companies today (especially Space X) are very much labors of love. Everyone there is pulling incredibly long hours, not just him.

That said, I've known plenty of CEOs/entrepreneurs who were plugged into their work 24/7. I've also known plenty who put in 40 hours a week or less, and yet were still very successful. There's no hard and fast rule here.

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01-07-2014, 01:00 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
I don't think Elon Musk is the best example of CEOs working ultra-long hours.

As far as entrepreneurs go, he's the definition of an outlier. Most entrepreneurs are lucky if they get one moderate win in their career. He's gotten a huge win with eBay and now three extremely high-profile ventures all at the same time.

I've also heard that some of Elon's companies today (especially Space X) are very much labors of love. Everyone there is pulling incredibly long hours, not just him.

That said, I've known plenty of CEOs/entrepreneurs who were plugged into their work 24/7. I've also known plenty who put in 40 hours a week or less, and yet were still very successful. There's no hard and fast rule here.
Plus there is a big difference between working and working.

What a CEO calls work I would tend to call very, very easy.

Sure sometimes the decisions to be made about company direction etc. are hard but compared to the guys Musk throws his temper tantrums at for not accomplishing "his vision" for him in between his fawning media interviews, he probably doesn't work that hard.

Sure you can put in a lot of hours demanding of others but that isn't as taxing as being the guy actually doing the production of whatever it is you are producing.


And you're right their are owners and CEOs who are at both extremes of the hours they put in.. some are control freaks and micro managers who are on 24/7. Some have hired people they trust to run various areas of their businesses or in some cases the whole thing and they just check in here and there to keep an eye on things.

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01-07-2014, 01:06 PM
  #215
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80 hours per week is what a typical NYC Biglaw associate would put in at a firm like Skadden.

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01-07-2014, 05:16 PM
  #216
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I'm sure most top CEOs do work long hours, but I don't see how that justifies salaries that are multiple millions of dollars.

A CEO who earns $5 million a year while working 80 hours a week is earning $1250 an hour. They would earn $100,000 every week.

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01-08-2014, 08:56 AM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
I'm sure most top CEOs do work long hours, but I don't see how that justifies salaries that are multiple millions of dollars.

A CEO who earns $5 million a year while working 80 hours a week is earning $1250 an hour. They would earn $100,000 every week.
We already quite conclusively shot down earlier in the thread the theory that CEOs deserve their pay because they work hard. If a CEO works 80 hours a week then he's still only working twice as much as the average worker, at best. Not 12 times as much, which the Swiss law would have limited his pay to. You can make the argument that the CEO is more valuable to the company than an average worker - but the argument that he works harder is a red herring that is irrelevant to this discussion.

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01-08-2014, 10:26 AM
  #218
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Why the fuck would anyone ever aspire to work 80-100 hours a week?

The funniest is when the people who do that claim that they do it "for their family". Like fuck they do.

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