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Karlsson vs. Pietrangelo

View Poll Results: Who do you think is better?
Karlsson now, Karlsson future 42 26.09%
Karlsson now, Pietrangelo future 11 6.83%
Pietrangelo now, Pietrangelo future 93 57.76%
Pietrangelo now, Karlsson future 15 9.32%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-26-2013, 09:36 AM
  #26
Inglorious Backes
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Petro is the anchor of one of the best defensive teams in hockey, logs huge minutes on the PP and PK, and can easily score 50-60 points a year. He isn't a product of a good defensive team, he IS the reason this team is elite defensively. And offensively, I believe his puck moving abilities (along with JBouw and Shatty) have had a huge impact on elevating the offensive potential of the Blues. Well worth the hype, and already has a top 3 Norris finish under his belt. The Norris front runner right now for me.

With all that said I love Karlsson and completely understand people favoring his potential after he fully recovers. Just had to give a little love for my boy Petro.

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11-26-2013, 09:40 AM
  #27
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Another Karlsson vs. [insert flavour of the week] thread started by a non-Sens poster. Bottomline, I think you would be hard pressed to find fans of either team to not select their own player - they are integral parts of their respective organizations.

Karlsson is a game breaker, and he has struggled defensively. But doesn't take away from the fact that he is a very special player who can change the game at a drop of a dime.

Karlsson now and future for me. Again.

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11-26-2013, 09:50 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armani View Post
Another Karlsson vs. [insert flavour of the week] thread started by a non-Sens poster. Bottomline, I think you would be hard pressed to find fans of either team to not select their own player - they are integral parts of their respective organizations.

Karlsson is a game breaker, and he has struggled defensively. But doesn't take away from the fact that he is a very special player who can change the game at a drop of a dime.

Karlsson now and future for me. Again.
So Pietrangelo is a flavor of the week and Karlsson is someone stoned in centuries?

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11-26-2013, 10:25 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Inglorious Backes View Post
Petro is the anchor of one of the best defensive teams in hockey, logs huge minutes on the PP and PK, and can easily score 50-60 points a year. He isn't a product of a good defensive team, he IS the reason this team is elite defensively. And offensively, I believe his puck moving abilities (along with JBouw and Shatty) have had a huge impact on elevating the offensive potential of the Blues. Well worth the hype, and already has a top 3 Norris finish under his belt. The Norris front runner right now for me.

With all that said I love Karlsson and completely understand people favoring his potential after he fully recovers. Just had to give a little love for my boy Petro.

This.

Karlsson gets an undeserved ride around here , but lets clear something up. Alex Pietrangelo is the best d-man on the best defensive team in hockey, that plays in the Western conference, which we've seen is the far more difficult division to produce offensively in. And yet he still produces 50-60pts, rarely makes defensive errors playing against top line talent, and manages the game in and out of transition as good or better than any d-man in the league.

Their overall game is not comparable.

Karlsson produces 10-20 more pts than Petro, is inarguably the greater gamebreaking offensive threat, and manages the game by being a consistent counter threat.

Their offensive games are not comparable.

It's all about what flavor you prefer.

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11-26-2013, 10:40 AM
  #30
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If I'm starting a team I take Karlsson easily over Pietrangelo.

While the rest of HF continues to treat offense like cancer, I'll be taking my 80 points a year from the blueline to the bank and laughing all the way there.

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11-26-2013, 10:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
If I'm starting a team I take Karlsson easily over Pietrangelo.

While the rest of HF continues to treat offense like cancer, I'll be taking my 80 points a year from the blueline to the bank and laughing all the way there.
Stop thinking of players in terms of purely offense or purely defense.

What net goal production does Karlsson bring to the table? Does he bring 80 points to the table, yet not prevent 30 goals against that a more proficient defender like Pietro could have negated?

In reality, thinking about a defenseman's value as being:

Points produced + goals against negated - goals against caused

is a much better way to judge value.

And in this case, I think Pietro brings more

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11-26-2013, 10:47 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
If I'm starting a team I take Karlsson easily over Pietrangelo.

While the rest of HF continues to treat offense like cancer, I'll be taking my 80 points a year from the blueline to the bank and laughing all the way there.
I don't think anyone is treating it like a cancer as much as they are saying that the 80pts isn't necessarily pure, due to the number of direct goals and + level shots that come from his mistakes. With than in-mind, their offensive production could be relatively even.

There was a David Johnson data set that pretty much illustrated this. The argument against is that a direct GA for Karllson could be the result of him getting squeezed. In that situation a G/A wouldn't be a direct cause of EK, but there's no way to pull that forward in the set.

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11-26-2013, 10:52 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonFord View Post
Stop thinking of players in terms of purely offense or purely defense.

What net goal production does Karlsson bring to the table? Does he bring 80 points to the table, yet not prevent 30 goals against that a more proficient defender like Pietro could have negated?

In reality, thinking about a defenseman's value as being:

Points produced + goals against negated - goals against caused

is a much better way to judge value.

And in this case, I think Pietro brings more
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
I don't think anyone is treating it like a cancer as much as they are saying that the 80pts isn't necessarily pure, due to the number of direct goals and + level shots that come from his mistakes. With than in-mind, their offensive production could be relatively even.

There was a David Johnson data set that pretty much illustrated this. The argument against is that a direct GA for Karllson could be the result of him getting squeezed. In that situation a G/A wouldn't be a direct cause of EK, but there's no way to pull that forward in the set.
Maybe it's because I'm a Rangers fan that I value offense so much. I've watched my team score once a game for literally a decade and a half. "Goals prevented" sure isn't getting us very far.

Objectively I don't think it's fair to say that because of Petro's defensive ability, their net production is even. I know he has alot to do with why the Blues are better, but Petro plays for a better team any way you slice it which certainly factors into goals being prevented when he's on the ice. Also, Karlsson's ability to control the puck prevents alot more goals simply by putting it where they can't score than I think he gets credit for. Simply put I don't think Petro is 25-30 points better defensively.

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Old
11-26-2013, 10:55 AM
  #34
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Depends if you want pure offense, or a mix of offense and defense.

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Old
11-26-2013, 11:05 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Maybe it's because I'm a Rangers fan that I value offense so much. I've watched my team score once a game for literally a decade and a half. "Goals prevented" sure isn't getting us very far.

Objectively I don't think it's fair to say that because of Petro's defensive ability, their net production is even. I know he has alot to do with why the Blues are better, but Petro plays for a better team any way you slice it which certainly factors into goals being prevented when he's on the ice. Also, Karlsson's ability to control the puck prevents alot more goals simply by putting it where they can't score than I think he gets credit for. Simply put I don't think Petro is 25-30 points better defensively.
I think your points are fair and another illustration of where some of those advanced stats fail. You're right in saying Karlsson prevents goals from having the puck. I would like to add, though, that Pietrangelo is probably the best strip and counter d-man in the league. Keith would be up there for me, as well, but Pietrangelo is really akin to a Brady or Manning type posession management on the ice. You're getting that same level of "the best defense is zone time" philosophy (caused directly by him) on top of less direct gaffes.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your selection— I would in fact agree that The Rangers would definitely benefit from EK over AP. I just happen to think that you're getting close to the same offensive value (in relation to actual games won), despite the difference in pts. It's just the flavor that you prefer. EK is obviously better suited at breaking games open. AP is better at controlling the game/keeping it close.

What happens if they're only separated by 10-12pts this year?

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Old
11-26-2013, 11:10 AM
  #36
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If they're separated by 10-12 pts this year, I'll be shocked. I fully expect Karlsson to put up over 80 points. If Pietrangelo puts up around 70 I'll bump this the day after the season and take back my vote.

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11-26-2013, 11:12 AM
  #37
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best strip and counter dman would be Karlsson. Right now over the length of the season, they would be separated by 18 points.

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11-26-2013, 11:20 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Loscar View Post
Karlsson now and future. Pietrangelo is overrated.
Calling Pietro overrated in a poll vs. Karlsson... That's interesting.

Pietro now and future.

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11-26-2013, 11:30 AM
  #39
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What I'm reading about is how St. Louis is such a great defensive team, and that the West in general is harder to score goals in, and somehow this helps to explain the offensive discrepancy between Pietrangelo and Karlsson, but is never used in the same vein to explain the defensive discrepancy.

Ottawa as a whole is very poor at team defense this season. They also play in the traditionally more offensive Eastern conference.

If Pietrangelo's lower offensive stats can be explained by the defensive orientation of the team and the conference, can't they also explain his apparently superior defensive abilities?

I just find the double standard amusing.

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11-26-2013, 11:31 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
best strip and counter dman would be Karlsson. Right now over the length of the season, they would be separated by 18 points.
Yeah, he's really not, though. He gets worked along the boards. Sure, he thiefs some pucks and skates them back the other way for some exciting plays, but I'm talking about consistently winning board battles and immediately firing passes that exit the zone. AP, Keith and Suter are the best at this by a large margin.

Edit: If you're talking about counter player in the sense of "anytime" he gets possession (most likely loose puck), I 100% agree with you.


Last edited by taylord22: 11-26-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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11-26-2013, 11:34 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
What I'm reading about is how St. Louis is such a great defensive team, and that the West in general is harder to score goals in, and somehow this helps to explain the offensive discrepancy between Pietrangelo and Karlsson, but is never used in the same vein to explain the defensive discrepancy.

Ottawa as a whole is very poor at team defense this season. They also play in the traditionally more offensive Eastern conference.

If Pietrangelo's lower offensive stats can be explained by the defensive orientation of the team and the conference, can't they also explain his apparently superior defensive abilities?

I just find the double standard amusing.
I don't think anyone is saying that there isn't a large difference in athletic ability. There obviously is. And AP is never going to hunt 80pts, in any conference. But the degree of competition is worth noting (relative to both offense and defense)— so it was.

But I also don't know how it can be called a double standard when we're talking about direct GA (stemming from giveaways).


Last edited by taylord22: 11-26-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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Old
11-26-2013, 11:41 AM
  #42
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So Pietrangelo is a flavor of the week and Karlsson is someone stoned in centuries?
Considering Karlsson has scored at a PPG the last 3 years and won a Norris in that span, than yes in comparison to Pietrangelo, Karlsson is much more proven.

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11-26-2013, 11:55 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by armani View Post
Another Karlsson vs. [insert flavour of the week] thread started by a non-Sens poster. Bottomline, I think you would be hard pressed to find fans of either team to not select their own player - they are integral parts of their respective organizations.

Karlsson is a game breaker, and he has struggled defensively. But doesn't take away from the fact that he is a very special player who can change the game at a drop of a dime.

Karlsson now and future for me. Again.
Flavor of the week? What? Pietrangelo has been talked about as one of the best up-and-coming defensemen in the league for a few seasons now. That's hardly flavor of the week, and if you don't like Karlsson v. ______ threads you can ignore them.

This is a tough one because of the question. If it were asking who I would build a team around I'd probably go with Pietrangelo and hope I can make up the difference in offense with my forwards and lower pairing defensemen. If it were asking who I take on my team I take Karlsson and don't even think twice while I drool over the thought of Weber and Karlsson playing together.

But who is better now and who will be better in the future? That's a very difficult question. I'm going with Karlsson now, and Pie in the future. While Karlsson clearly has the lead in offense, things become much closer from there with Pie being better on the defensive side of the puck. This is the hard part. I feel like Karlsson's offense is going to remain somewhere in the 60-70 points per season area going forward. That is fantastic, but Pie's already sitting at around 50 points per season area. This year his production has gone up, on pace at the moment for around 60 points this season. If he can stay in the 50-60 pts/season area while continuing to develop his defensive game he closes the offense gap, which isn't overwhelming, and is my pick for the future.

It's hard to go wrong with any option, though. I guess it just depends on what you like most in a player.

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11-26-2013, 11:59 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by RK 17 View Post
Considering Karlsson has scored at a PPG the last 3 years and won a Norris in that span, than yes in comparison to Pietrangelo, Karlsson is much more proven.
Being "more proven" doesn't make others flavors of the week in comparison. That's just a ridiculous position. As I mentioned above, Pietrangelo is hardly some Johnny Come Lately player who came out of no where to gain attention, and will fade into obscurity. These Karlsson conversations get entirely too contentious with these labels that are absolutely silly (Karlsson is a fourth forward, Pie/OEL/whomever is a flavor of the week, et al).

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11-26-2013, 12:13 PM
  #45
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Easy.

Pietrangelo now, Pietrangelo future

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11-26-2013, 12:33 PM
  #46
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I don't think people realize that two seasons ago was a tale of two halves for Pietrangelo. The year he put up 51 points he had like 10 in the first part of the season and when January 1st came along he flipped an offensive switch and closed 11-12 with 40 or 41 points in 44 games while providing elite defense.

That is the Pietrangelo we're seeing again this year. Blues fans will tell you the shortened season didn't do Petro any favors. He was still hands down our best defenseman but he was making some poor decisions occasionally, especially early in the season, and usually trying to jump up on the play leading to odd-man rushes. Trying to do too much, probably a little in his head that you need points to win the Norris.

This year it's back to the Petro we saw in the 2d half of 11-12. He is literally dominating games and he IS the reason the Blues are winning and frankly dominating most of their games. He's not the product of some system, he is the system. It's frankly insulting to suggest he is being statistically coddled somehow.

If you disagree without watching many or any Blues games, spend a few and just isolate on 27. Watch his decision making, watch his unreal 1-on-1 ability along the boards. He's honestly and truly a special player, easily the Blues' best player. I look at his point production, see his contribution to the Blues' powerful transition game, and I'm very confident he's going to hit 60 points + if he stays healthy. He only needs 42+ points in 59 games, which is very reasonable.

Given the discrepancy between the defense each offers, a Petro around 60-65 points with the defense he brings is my #1 defenseman in the NHL. He's a classic #1 Dman and frankly the "flavor of the month" stuff is idiotic.

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11-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #47
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Pietrangelo now and future.

He's a great two-way defenseman. He's the complete package.

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11-26-2013, 12:52 PM
  #48
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Voted p now k future.

Karlsson has so much potential, he could change how the game is played

Pietrangelo is the better player on your team right now though.

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11-26-2013, 12:53 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
Yeah, he's really not, though. He gets worked along the boards. Sure, he thiefs some pucks and skates them back the other way for some exciting plays, but I'm talking about consistently winning board battles and immediately firing passes that exit the zone. AP, Keith and Suter are the best at this by a large margin.

Edit: If you're talking about counter player in the sense of "anytime" he gets possession (most likely loose puck), I 100% agree with you.
Karlsson's ability to take the puck away from another player and instantly turn it into offense is by far his greatest strength and he is the best in the league at it.

A lot of people dont realize this.

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11-26-2013, 12:55 PM
  #50
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Karlsson for sure. If he played on a stacked team like the blues were his teammates could actually keep up with him we'd see the threads about him being the best player in the world again

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