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Karlsson vs. Pietrangelo

View Poll Results: Who do you think is better?
Karlsson now, Karlsson future 42 26.09%
Karlsson now, Pietrangelo future 11 6.83%
Pietrangelo now, Pietrangelo future 93 57.76%
Pietrangelo now, Karlsson future 15 9.32%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-26-2013, 12:56 PM
  #51
armani
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Flavor of the week? What? Pietrangelo has been talked about as one of the best up-and-coming defensemen in the league for a few seasons now. That's hardly flavor of the week, and if you don't like Karlsson v. ______ threads you can ignore them.
Pie is good, would have him on my team any day.

The flavour of the week comment is geared more towards Karlsson threads started by non-Sens (pun intended) posters to compare him against whomever is playing well now. Last year Karlsson was winning all the popularity polls before the injury. This year he is losing them all. All these polls are popularity contests involving flavour of the week (which includes Karlsson).

As of today, Karlsson's had a very poor and inconsistent showing - in full display since his return from the torn achilles injury. At 23, he has time and a long-term contract on his side to prove his full value (and then some).

People here also get bogged down by defence vs. offence and player positioning. I wonder how many of these people actually played hockey? While player positioning is very important, it's the impact/value that one brings to the team which measures how valuable he is. Karlsson is not just the Sens' best player, but he is a very unique player whose game breaking ability - at his age - puts him a cut above the rest of the crew, including Pie. IMHO.

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11-26-2013, 12:59 PM
  #52
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Also I'm interested to see who the next DMan compared to Karlsson will be in the next few years... maybe Trouba? Murray?

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11-26-2013, 01:05 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Karlsson's ability to take the puck away from another player and instantly turn it into offense is by far his greatest strength and he is the best in the league at it.

A lot of people dont realize this.
I buy that to a degree, but the play along the boards is not up to par with the likes of the aforementioned players. Because so much of the game is played along the boards, I don't think you can say he's the best in the league at winning battles and transitioning.

He's the best intercept and counter player in the league, undoubtedly.

Also, EK's greatest strength, IMO, is his skating...without any question.

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11-26-2013, 01:11 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
I buy that to a degree, but the play along the boards is not up to par with the likes of the aforementioned players. Because so much of the game is played along the boards, I don't think you can say he's the best in the league at winning battles and transitioning.

He's the best intercept and counter player in the league, undoubtedly.
Before his injury last year, he was winning most of those battles with his positioning and stick checks.

He is struggling big time in that regard. Karlsson also sometimes looks like a chicken without a head when opposing forwards are crashing the net. He is gambling out there, and it sometimes looks really bad when he loses them. As a Norris winner, he is making rookie-type mistakes. However, a lot of that will also need to be attributed to the Sens (lack of) defensive consistency as a team.

However, as a Sens fan, I am not concerned about his long-term value. The short term stuff can be worked on and will improve. If given the opportunity to pick any defenceman in the league to start my team, I will easily pick Karlsson, without thinking twice.

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11-26-2013, 01:15 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
I buy that to a degree, but the play along the boards is not up to par with the likes of the aforementioned players. Because so much of the game is played along the boards, I don't think you can say he's the best in the league at winning battles and transitioning.

He's the best intercept and counter player in the league, undoubtedly.

Also, EK's greatest strength, IMO, is his skating...without any question.
This is an intelligent post. He doesn't take the initiative along the boards, he tries to contain. He doesn't look strong defensively, but craps... Every time he skates the puck out of his zone it turns into a scoring chance.

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11-26-2013, 01:17 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
I buy that to a degree, but the play along the boards is not up to par with the likes of the aforementioned players. Because so much of the game is played along the boards, I don't think you can say he's the best in the league at winning battles and transitioning.

He's the best intercept and counter player in the league, undoubtedly.

Also, EK's greatest strength, IMO, is his skating...without any question.
Before this season, Karlsson ate up large forwards along the boards. He avoided contact and just simply snatched the puck from them.

This year he's hesitant along the boards and tries too hard to avoid contact. Its really effecting his defensive game. Its physiological so it'll come back over time.

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Old
11-26-2013, 01:26 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by We're Doan Here View Post
Petro now and in the future. He brings as much offensively as Karlsson, just plays on a defensive team, and the defensive game between the two is not even comparable, especially this year.
Saying they are equal offensively is like saying they are equal defensively.

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11-26-2013, 01:46 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by The Latvian View Post
Saying they are equal offensively is like saying they are equal defensively.
They aren't equal offensively, but what you are saying is even more wrong.

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11-26-2013, 01:47 PM
  #59
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Also I'm interested to see who the next DMan compared to Karlsson will be in the next few years... maybe Trouba? Murray?
The next goal scoring Dman I see coming up is Ryan Pulock. Maybe we see Dumba as well.

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11-26-2013, 01:49 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by The Latvian View Post
Saying they are equal offensively is like saying they are equal defensively.
Petro is leaps and bounds ahead of Karlsson defensively, while Karlsson is just a bit better offensively.

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11-26-2013, 01:53 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Daley Tarasenkshow View Post
Petro is leaps and bounds ahead of Karlsson defensively, while Karlsson is just a bit better offensively.
Pietro doesn't come close to the way Karlsson plays the game offensively. Pietro plays D outstandingly, but also "standardly". Karlsson is doing something other D isn't and it is proving very effective.

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11-26-2013, 01:59 PM
  #62
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I may be a homer, but I truly think despite the fact that he may not score as much, his passes and ability to play the puck off the boards and keep the puck in the zone is crucial. You have to look at a defensemen's value in terms of value on their specific team. What Petro does for the blues is crucial for them, and the way he can position himself to play the puck creates chances for everyone.

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11-26-2013, 02:20 PM
  #63
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I'll take the Norris winner please

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11-26-2013, 02:48 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daley Tarasenkshow View Post
Petro is leaps and bounds ahead of Karlsson defensively, while Karlsson is just a bit better offensively.
I wouldn't say 78pts is just ''a bit better'' than 51pts. The gap between them offensively is as large as the cap between them defensively. Actually, no, the gap between them offensively is larger by a good margin. Pietrangelo hasn't done anything significant in this league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daley Tarasenkshow View Post
I may be a homer, but I truly think despite the fact that he may not defend as much, his outlet passes and ability to play the puck and bring it up the ice and keep the puck in the offensive zone is crucial. You have to look at a defensemen's value in terms of value on their specific team. What Karlsson does for the Senators is crucial for them, and the way he can position himself to play the puck creates chances for everyone.

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11-26-2013, 02:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by armani View Post
Pie is good, would have him on my team any day.

The flavour of the week comment is geared more towards Karlsson threads started by non-Sens (pun intended) posters to compare him against whomever is playing well now. Last year Karlsson was winning all the popularity polls before the injury. This year he is losing them all. All these polls are popularity contests involving flavour of the week (which includes Karlsson).

As of today, Karlsson's had a very poor and inconsistent showing - in full display since his return from the torn achilles injury. At 23, he has time and a long-term contract on his side to prove his full value (and then some).

People here also get bogged down by defence vs. offence and player positioning. I wonder how many of these people actually played hockey? While player positioning is very important, it's the impact/value that one brings to the team which measures how valuable he is. Karlsson is not just the Sens' best player, but he is a very unique player whose game breaking ability - at his age - puts him a cut above the rest of the crew, including Pie. IMHO.
Fair enough, but that particular phrase is misleading when you use it that way. As I said, every thread is able to be ignored. There's no sense in complaining about these threads, and of course they are popularity contests. We're all just fans. Very few of us have experience with actually scouting hockey players, let alone adept at accurately analysing the slight, nuanced differences in players at this level. These polls are not scientific. They are just for fun.

As for your point about what makes a player valuable, I don't disagree. However, with a question like this in which we are asked to decide which player is better now and which will be better in the future, value isn't all that important. Yes, Karlsson is incredibly valuable to Ottawa just as Pie is incredibly valuable to St Louis. That would be very important if this were the trade forum or if the question were one of value rather than purely skill. Since it is about skill their value to their clubs is irrelevant. Things that are relevant are offensive skill, defensive skill, hockey IQ/vision, positioning, etc. Those are the things into which people in this discussion should be putting the most weight.

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11-26-2013, 03:03 PM
  #66
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I like these polls when they get closer to the Olympics. There are more non-Ottawa Canadian fans who post on this board than Swedish fans. Plus the consensus will be even more dramatic when Petro has 40 points by the Olympic break and more fan bases around the league see him head to head.

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11-26-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Fair enough, but that particular phrase is misleading when you use it that way. As I said, every thread is able to be ignored. There's no sense in complaining about these threads, and of course they are popularity contests. We're all just fans. Very few of us have experience with actually scouting hockey players, let alone adept at accurately analysing the slight, nuanced differences in players at this level. These polls are not scientific. They are just for fun.

As for your point about what makes a player valuable, I don't disagree. However, with a question like this in which we are asked to decide which player is better now and which will be better in the future, value isn't all that important. Yes, Karlsson is incredibly valuable to Ottawa just as Pie is incredibly valuable to St Louis. That would be very important if this were the trade forum or if the question were one of value rather than purely skill. Since it is about skill their value to their clubs is irrelevant. Things that are relevant are offensive skill, defensive skill, hockey IQ/vision, positioning, etc. Those are the things into which people in this discussion should be putting the most weight.
How do you assess "better" if better doesn't bring value?

If we are talking pure skills and abilities, once again Karlsson comes on top. But we know it's not a skills competition. Both play the same position, but who has the most impact on the ice? You cannot put any defenceman (or forward for that matter) in Karlsson's position and expect the same (usually positive) outcome.

Some of the pro-Karlsson posters (Sens fan or otherwise) that get disrespected here know what they are talking about. They understand the weaknesses and the recent performance metrics, but they also understand quality, based on actually watching the player play.

If you need, offense, you go with Karlsson. If you need defense, I still go with Karlsson - a rare specimen who is stylistically similar to one of the greatest players to have ever played hockey (won't name him as this would put fuel to the hate fire).

Haters gonna hate, but they would jump instanteneously at the chance of getting a near-ppg defenceman aged 23 who has already won a Norris.

Finally, as a Global Moderator, you should know that a lot of these posts are thinly veiled as Karlsson bashing threads (not saying this is in fact one). We saw that with Crosby as well with his growing pains - and we had all purpose Crosby vs. Ovechkin threads in those days to control those types of threads. They do no good to HFBOARDS, or real hockey fans who want to discuss hockey. A lot of original HF posters started posting elsewhere for these exact reasons, so I recommend creating an all-purpose Karlsson thread, as he is likely one of the most discussed names here.

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11-26-2013, 03:17 PM
  #68
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karlsson vs piets is a very serious comparison, two young players and despite that very close to the Norris, and that either team's fans take offense (Sens fans more no doubt) is probably funny to an outsider,

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11-26-2013, 03:34 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
I like these polls when they get closer to the Olympics. There are more non-Ottawa Canadian fans who post on this board than Swedish fans. Plus the consensus will be even more dramatic when Petro has 40 points by the Olympic break and more fan bases around the league see him head to head.
I like the fact that Karlsson's skating is looking better by the day.

The closer we get to the Olympics, I have no reason to expect that won't continue.

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11-26-2013, 03:40 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by armani View Post
How do you assess "better" if better doesn't bring value?

If we are talking pure skills and abilities, once again Karlsson comes on top. But we know it's not a skills competition. Both play the same position, but who has the most impact on the ice? You cannot put any defenceman (or forward for that matter) in Karlsson's position and expect the same (usually positive) outcome.
Karlsson has a pretty big span of positive to negative impact. He plays a high risk game. Karlsson can have a bigger positive impact than Pietrangelo but he also has a much higher chance of a negative outcome. Furthermore his peculiar playing style requires a lot of adapting from his own team and how they run their system.

Pietrangelo is frankly a player that is nearly always going to have a net positive impact in any situation because he plays a traditional game, except he does it better than most of the league, the advantage from a player like Pietrangelo comes from the fact that you can throw him out in any situation, against any system, against any player for any amount of time you want and expect him to come up on top. Karlsson has an exceptional skill level, but his fundamentals aren't as good and likely never will be. He can be iffy and there is not a degree of trust and a safety valve to his game that other elite defensemen possess. What you prefer is up to you. My opinion is Karlsson is more of a pure offensive defenseman than he is an elite two-way defenseman and I expect that to crystallize itself with more time. He does some amazing stuff, but there isn't a level of control to his game on both sides of the puck that a guy like Pietrangelo (and a few others) have.

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Old
11-26-2013, 03:44 PM
  #71
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My opinion is Karlsson is more of a pure offensive defenseman than he is an elite two-way defenseman and I expect that to crystallize itself with more time. He does some amazing stuff, but there isn't a level of control to his game on both sides of the puck that a guy like Pietrangelo (and a few others) have.
The control is different, thats all.

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11-26-2013, 03:49 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Karlsson's ability to take the puck away from another player and instantly turn it into offense is by far his greatest strength and he is the best in the league at it.

A lot of people dont realize this.
Then why isn't he doing it more often for us this year? There are times he's getting walked and other times he's letting other people just bat away at the puck near his goalie. He WAS doing what you descrive in 2012 for sure, but he isn't doing it now, at least not enough to help the team win.

I went Pie now, 65 later, hoping that Karlsson will once again return to his Norris form in a few years.

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Old
11-26-2013, 05:29 PM
  #73
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The question to this answer is, "it depends". If you're running a run and gun, open ended, rush one way, back the other, and then back up sort of system like a lot of teams in the East, you take Karlsson. If you play a gritty, clog the neutral zone, get pucks deep, win board battles, cycle to open up lanes and shots, you take Pietrangelo.

Now the big question is, which is the better system? Well, that is a rhetorical question because the answer is obvious. The latter is a vastly superior way of playing hockey in the current NHL. It's why Boston is head and shoulders above everyone else in their conference. It's why teams like LA, Chi, and STL are currently dominating the west and have been for a few years. It's why Washington back when they were destroying the league in the regular season never went far in the playoffs. The "western" way of playing is just better, and it's why the west is dominating eastern teams.

As for what someone else said: goals contributed to + goals prevented - goals caused is a great formula for defensemen. Karlsson being bad defensively isn't just unique to this year, he was bad the year he won the Norris too. There is a video on youtube of every goal against Karlsson was on the ice for the year he won the Norris, and he was out of position for most of them. On top of that, he directly caused a lot. Nothing more needs to be said here, Karlsson never has been, isn't now, and probably never will be good defensively.

But with the puck on his stick, he's outstanding.

Then you have Pietrangelo who is literally top 3-5 in every facet of the position. 5 on 5, 4 on 5, 5 on 4, 3 on 5, defensive zone, neutral zone, offensive zone, positioning, consistency, all of it. He is elite at everything, and he is arguably the most consistently solid dman since Lidstrom. Factoring in the goals contributed + goals prevented - goals caused, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Pietrangelo would have far more "points" than Karlsson considering. And it makes him a better and more valuable player.

And he can fit into any system. You can put him on an Eastern team and he would make the team drastically better, just by being who he is. You put Karlsson on a western style team, and either Karlsson has to change, or the coach/teammates have to change to accommodate his style. And I dont think many western coaches, especially come playoff time, would want to embrace that sort of system. As it is clearly an inferior one.

That's my take on it. At the end of the day, Karlsson is just too poor in his own end, too inconsistent, causes far too many shots/goals against and turnovers, and plays a style of game I don't believe is conducive to winning championships.

I would take a Bourque over Coffey every day of the week, and I see no reason why taking Karlsson over Pietrangelo is a good idea.

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11-26-2013, 05:42 PM
  #74
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Petro is the anchor of one of the best defensive teams in hockey, logs huge minutes on the PP and PK, and can easily score 50-60 points a year. He isn't a product of a good defensive team, he IS the reason this team is elite defensively. And offensively, I believe his puck moving abilities (along with JBouw and Shatty) have had a huge impact on elevating the offensive potential of the Blues. Well worth the hype, and already has a top 3 Norris finish under his belt. The Norris front runner right now for me.

With all that said I love Karlsson and completely understand people favoring his potential after he fully recovers. Just had to give a little love for my boy Petro.
Im not saying Karlsson is better than Pietrangelo nor am I hating on Pietrangelo but I get the sense here that Pietrangelo carries the Blues D and defensive game on his shoulder, I find that hard to believe since St. Louis have very good Dman and defensive forward and when I see them play they have an amazing structure. I think Pietrangelo is a Norris caliber dman for sure but I also think he some of his success can be attributed to St. Louis having a good strong strucuture and good defenseman/forwards

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11-26-2013, 05:46 PM
  #75
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Im not saying Karlsson is better than Pietrangelo nor am I hating on Pietrangelo but I get the sense here that Pietrangelo carries the Blues D and defensive game on his shoulder, I find that hard to believe since St. Louis have very good Dman and defensive forward and when I see them play they have an amazing structure. I think Pietrangelo is a Norris caliber dman for sure but I also think he some of his success can be attributed to St. Louis having a good strong strucuture and good defenseman/forwards
He is that important. It is a little better that we have Jbo and not Colaiacovo on the top pairing, but without Pietrangelo our top 4 Dmen were Colaiacovo, Polak, Shat, Jackman. Yeah... nothing to write home about. And in the playoffs when he went down, the entire team fell apart.

He is the anchor of this team. Not just defense, the entire team. Far and away the most valuable player.

As much as Karlsson is valuable to Ottawa, and they team and system is built around him and his style, so is Pietrangelo and St.Louis.

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