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russia economic crisis - will it affect KHL?

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11-29-2013, 01:19 PM
  #26
Den
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I actually read that according to Deutsche Bank that in 2013 the growth will be 2%, in 2014 - 3.3%

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11-29-2013, 01:32 PM
  #27
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I actually read that according to Deutsche Bank that in 2013 the growth will be 2%, in 2014 - 3.3%
You sure you didn't read that a year ago?
Here's some figures: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/forecast

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11-29-2013, 01:36 PM
  #28
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Russian hockey of today is much different than that of the 90s. Namely, it's a lot better, privately owned, and it can afford to compete in the international market and retain players. In the 90s, everyone left to the NHL.

I guess the question is not if the KHL can 'survive' (obviously some form of league will always survive), but can it maintain it's current expansionary momentum.
I'm more concerned about making sure that the product on the ice is as good as can be. I favor slowing down expansion until they are sure that new franchises can afford to both pull their own weight and attract the level of talent to enhance the overall quality of the league. There should be a business plan that delineates how proposed franchises plan to build the quality of the league, and that they are sufficiently funded to carry out their business plan

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11-29-2013, 01:38 PM
  #29
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You sure you didn't read that a year ago?
Here's some figures: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/forecast

I don't know, dated 26 nov 2013, here's the link in Russian: http://www.gazeta.ru/business/2013/11/26/5771313.shtml

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11-29-2013, 01:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I'm more concerned about making sure that the product on the ice is as good as can be. I favor slowing down expansion until they are sure that new franchises can afford to both pull their own weight and attract the level of talent to enhance the overall quality of the league. There should be a business plan that delineates how proposed franchises plan to build the quality of the league, and that they are sufficiently funded to carry out their business plan
Expansion should be slowed down in order to make sure quality of teams/product doesn't drop, same thing as with NHL in the past. You have to be sure there's enough quality players available, that includes not fishing other leagues dry too quickly. You have to let the player pool replenish.

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11-29-2013, 01:48 PM
  #31
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I'm more concerned about making sure that the product on the ice is as good as can be. I favor slowing down expansion until they are sure that new franchises can afford to both pull their own weight and attract the level of talent to enhance the overall quality of the league. There should be a business plan that delineates how proposed franchises plan to build the quality of the league, and that they are sufficiently funded to carry out their business plan
I would be suprised if there is no business plan of expansion. Interviews of Shalaev, Medvedev or Kochevrin are very interesting.

"Financially weak clubs will have to find wealthier sponsors or will be replaced by richer clubs," Shalaev

"There are signals from Norway, Denmark, France etc that they want to have KHL team. KHL is in position when we can select clubs. France/GB is not our goal, Denmark/Norway are interesting locations but we want clubs from Sweden, SUI, GER," Kochevrin

"When euro expansion is done, we will go to China," Kochevrin. "Go to China" does not have to mean that KHL wants club from China... tv deal is enough for the start.

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11-29-2013, 02:08 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Expansion should be slowed down in order to make sure quality of teams/product doesn't drop, same thing as with NHL in the past. You have to be sure there's enough quality players available, that includes not fishing other leagues dry too quickly. You have to let the player pool replenish.
I don't disagree. In the NHL's first expansion (I think it was 1967), they had to organize the six existing teams and the six expansion franchises into separate divisions because the talent imbalance was so bad. It took more than a decade to bring about some kind of parity on the ice.

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11-29-2013, 09:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I would be suprised if there is no business plan of expansion. Interviews of Shalaev, Medvedev or Kochevrin are very interesting.

"Financially weak clubs will have to find wealthier sponsors or will be replaced by richer clubs," Shalaev

"There are signals from Norway, Denmark, France etc that they want to have KHL team. KHL is in position when we can select clubs. France/GB is not our goal, Denmark/Norway are interesting locations but we want clubs from Sweden, SUI, GER," Kochevrin

"When euro expansion is done, we will go to China," Kochevrin. "Go to China" does not have to mean that KHL wants club from China... tv deal is enough for the start.
I favor Shaleyev's point of view. I would like to see the next expansion go to Sweden first, Switzerland second, and Germany third. These are countries that have lots of hockey history, and who will support the game and contribute to the talent pool.

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11-30-2013, 03:17 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I favor Shaleyev's point of view. I would like to see the next expansion go to Sweden first, Switzerland second, and Germany third. These are countries that have lots of hockey history, and who will support the game and contribute to the talent pool.
I have a feeling that Germany is first of them. Why? 1) Arena Events is in talks with one german club about buying arena/club. 2) 2015 might be a year of expansion to Germany becuase deal of DEL/german hockey gov.body is over. 3) FDP is in coalition with CDU/CSU and Steinmeier is likely to become foreign minister.

I can see SUI club in 2016/2017 years. The same Sweden.. of course, that can change.. just prediction.

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KHL can not expand like NHL - means slowly... Why?

1) Gazprom does not want to pump money to hockey forever. Gazprom have always spent as much money as needed, never more. (not only KHL but gas bussiness as well)

2) KHL needs to expand to Europe earlier than NHL and its projects of Champions Cup or ET/ECC is on map. Failure of ECC= good news for KHL

3) Talent pool and money - there is not so many high quality of russian players. KHL needs less russian clubs as quickly as possible. At the same time VHL can become better

4) NHL has been blocking hockey market. KHL clubs have money to buy "Crosby´s". Not all clubs, but weak clubs go to VHL. KHL needs more attractive cities (lifestyle, culture etc) to lure more Swedes/Euros/Canadians/Americans. KHL needs to force NHL to change transfer rules - no more Kovy case (retiring from NHL) anymore - and accept transfer rules as NBA/Euros. THAT ALL must be done before CBA is over (so next 7yrs???) and NHLPTA with Euros is over (the same time?).

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11-30-2013, 06:11 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
It's not like Russia's actions recently have helped to change the picture to more positive. It's more apparent in Finland, what with constant air space violations by fighter jets, child custody cases, that Greenpeace activist, Johan Bäckman's constant antics, cyber attacks being traced to Russia etc. and on a global level the whole anti-gay thing. Russophiles like Peter25 tend to ignore that or try to spin it off into something else.
I'm aware that you picture of Russia is exactly the product of the media I mentioned in my post. Unprecedented pile of BS about Russia you write there. I don't even want to comment. It's laughable, baseless, ignorant. Just try to get proper information instead of believing what you are told by the your press. It's not that hard in the age of the internet.

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11-30-2013, 07:13 AM
  #36
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I'm aware that you picture of Russia is exactly the product of the media I mentioned in my post. Unprecedented pile of BS about Russia you write there. I don't even want to comment. It's laughable, baseless, ignorant. Just try to get proper information instead of believing what you are told by the your press. It's not that hard in the age of the internet.
If the Finnish government gives official statements about air space violations(Swedes have experience of that as well) and cyber attacks for example, then how is that the fault of the media? You are the one being laughable right now if you actually think there is no base for any of the stuff I listed.

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11-30-2013, 09:57 AM
  #37
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Russia can't even maintain it's budget
In the last ten years Russia's budget has almost always been at surplus while most of the EU countries have ran big budget deficits.

This year Russia will have a budget deficit, but it is currently still only 0,2% of the total GDP.

Finland, which has had one of the best fiscal performances in the EU, will run a budget deficit of 4-5% of the GDP this year.

Britain had a budget deficit of 10,4% of the GDP last year.

And one important thing is that Russia has no foreign debt.

Compare Russia's fiscal performance with almost any European country and Russia performs better than almost all of them.

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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
and GDP growth is going down.
Yes, growth rate is going down and is currently at 1,8%. Russia is not performing well economically, but neither is the rest of the Europe. In Finland, where I live, the growth rate has been negative for a while. At least Russia is still growing, even if it growth rate is low.

Russian economy could be a lot stronger and I'm not saying everything is well in Russia, but if you want to find a true economic disaster zone look no further than your country Ukraine. Today's Ukraine is what Russia was in 1998. A country with collapsing economy, non-functional government and inability to pay it's debts.

Maybe Ukraine should find "their Putin" and do what Putin did in Russia since 2000?

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11-30-2013, 10:07 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Russian hockey of today is much different than that of the 90s. Namely, it's a lot better, privately owned, and it can afford to compete in the international market and retain players. In the 90s, everyone left to the NHL.
The level of play in the KHL is better than what it was in the Russian major league after 1992, but I would not say that Russian hockey in general is better now than it was in the 1990's. In the 1990's Russia had a lot more good players than it does today because of the legacy of the Soviet hockey. The difference is of course that then most of these players played outside of Russia.

Especially in the early 1990's Russia could easily put together three or four really good national teams. Now Russia lacks the depth that it had then and the level of play in the KHL is increasingly dependent of foreign players.

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11-30-2013, 11:09 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
If the Finnish government gives official statements about air space violations(Swedes have experience of that as well) and cyber attacks for example, then how is that the fault of the media? You are the one being laughable right now if you actually think there is no base for any of the stuff I listed.
The finnish government is laughable. Really, really laughable. Cyber attacks? Are you even serious? They seem to run out os stories. Please reroute your righteous call for vengeance to the NSA. I told I don't want it to become the but-you-did-that kind of conversation. Believe me you'll lose by a wide margin with that.

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11-30-2013, 11:19 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
The finnish government is laughable. Really, really laughable. Cyber attacks? Are you even serious? They seem to run out os stories. Please reroute your righteous call for vengeance to the NSA. I told I don't want it to become the but-you-did-that kind of conversation. Believe me you'll lose by a wide margin with that.
Atas,the same is true for Latvian goverment too with the Cyber attacks and moreso the air space violations,are you gonna tell me were lying too?Cmon now.

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11-30-2013, 11:31 AM
  #41
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Atas,the same is true for Latvian goverment too with the Cyber attacks and moreso the air space violations,are you gonna tell me were lying too?Cmon now.
It is more about "how they report it" rather than "what they report".

In the Western media there is always some negative spin in news and articles concerning Russia. There are also huge double standards.

Let's the the spying of NSA for example. The Western MSM handled this with silk gloves. Had Russia done the same there would have been an outburst of rage in all Western MSM.

We can also compare how the North Ossetian war in 2008 and the invasion of Iraq in 2003 were covered by the Western MSM. During the North Ossetian war (which was started by Georgia, not Russia and which lasted for only 5 days) there was almost like a mass hysteria in the Western MSM. OMFG, Russia has again invaded it's small neighbour!!111! We need NATO!!!111! We must isolate and punish Russia!!1111! A small shining democracy of Georgia is under a brutal attack by it's "bullying" giant neighbour!!111!!

None of this was seen in the Western MSM during the Iraq war, started illegally by the US and it's allies. The war was fought for oil, lasted for many years and resulted hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. In Finland the media was either neutral (YLE) or supportive (MTV3 and Helsingin Sanomat) of this immoral, illegal war. MTV3 even went out to call those Iraqis who defended their country against a foreign invasion as "terrorists". None of the MSM here was strongly or even moderately against the invasion of Iraq.

Now imagine if Russia had done the invasion of Iraq instead of the Western countries? Do you really think the media's coverage of the war would not have been any different?


Last edited by Peter25: 11-30-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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11-30-2013, 11:45 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
The level of play in the KHL is better than what it was in the Russian major league after 1992, but I would not say that Russian hockey in general is better now than it was in the 1990's. In the 1990's Russia had a lot more good players than it does today because of the legacy of the Soviet hockey. The difference is of course that then most of these players played outside of Russia.

Especially in the early 1990's Russia could easily put together three or four really good national teams. Now Russia lacks the depth that it had then and the level of play in the KHL is increasingly dependent of foreign players.
I think it would be safe to say that that Soviet schools were better than 90s youth development, but also that KHL is better than 90s adult league

USSR > MHL > 90s

KHL > USSR League > RSL

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11-30-2013, 11:49 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
It is more about "how they report it" rather than "what they report".

In the Western media there is always some negative spin in news and articles concerning Russia. There are also huge double standards.

Let's the the spying of NSA for example. The Western MSM handled this with silk gloves. Had Russia done the same there would have been an outburst of rage in all Western MSM.

We can also compare how the North Ossetian war in 2008 and the invasion of Iraq in 2003 were covered by the Western MSM. During the North Ossetian war (which was started by Georgia, not Russia and which lasted for only 5 days) there was almost like a mass hysteria in the Western MSM. OMFG, Russia has again invaded it's small neighbour!!111! We need NATO!!!111! We must isolate and punish Russia!!1111! A small shining democracy of Georgia is under a brutal attack by it's "bullying" giant neighbour!!111!!

None of this was seen in the Western MSM during the Iraq war, started illegally by the US and it's allies. The war was fought for oil, lasted for many years and resulted hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. In Finland the media was either neutral (YLE) or supportive (MTV3 and Helsingin Sanomat) of this immoral, illegal war. MTV3 even went out to call those Iraqis who defended their country against a foreign invasion as "terrorists". None of the MSM here was strongly or even moderately against the invasion of Iraq.

Now imagine if Russia had done the invasion of Iraq instead of the Western countries? Do you really think the media's coverage of the war would not have been any different?
I can guarantee you that the Iraq War got more press in the West than the August War. Nobody in North America even knows Russia had a war, so I don't know about this mass media hysteria you're referring to...

Western coverage was fairly unbalanced and pro-georgia, from what I remember, you're right about that

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11-30-2013, 11:55 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
The finnish government is laughable. Really, really laughable. Cyber attacks? Are you even serious? They seem to run out os stories. Please reroute your righteous call for vengeance to the NSA. I told I don't want it to become the but-you-did-that kind of conversation. Believe me you'll lose by a wide margin with that.

You probably believe everything that desant Johan Bäckman keeps saying in the Russian media about Finland.

Why should we Finns care about the NSA? It doesn't concern us. Our politicians/government official are incompetent enough that there's no reason to spy on them, they'll blurt everything out without asking.


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11-30-2013, 11:57 AM
  #45
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In the last ten years Russia's budget has almost always been at surplus while most of the EU countries have ran big budget deficits.

This year Russia will have a budget deficit, but it is currently still only 0,2% of the total GDP.
Well, if you spend on nothing, invest in nothing, and rely on gas prices to get you by...

Russia's in trouble, don't pretend everything is all rosy. As a citizen, it's in your best interest to be concerned, is it not?

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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Compare Russia's fiscal performance with almost any European country and Russia performs better than almost all of them.
No. Just no. How are you gauging this "fiscal performance"?

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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post

Russian economy could be a lot stronger and I'm not saying everything is well in Russia, but if you want to find a true economic disaster zone look no further than your country Ukraine. Today's Ukraine is what Russia was in 1998. A country with collapsing economy, non-functional government and inability to pay it's debts.
Yes, Ukraine is in complete ****. Ukraine is Russia without the oil. Oligopoly, mafia state with the entire economy captive and syphoned off to offshore accounts.

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Maybe Ukraine should find "their Putin" and do what Putin did in Russia since 2000?
Putin didn't do anything, right place at the right time.

*anything is a simplification, he did a lot internally in creating a power vertical, but that's unrelated to this topic

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11-30-2013, 11:59 AM
  #46
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SME might be a little bit biased but it doesn't automatically mean that the article isn't truthful.

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11-30-2013, 12:03 PM
  #47
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It is more about "how they report it" rather than "what they report".

In the Western media there is always some negative spin in news and articles concerning Russia. There are also huge double standards.

Let's the the spying of NSA for example. The Western MSM handled this with silk gloves. Had Russia done the same there would have been an outburst of rage in all Western MSM.

We can also compare how the North Ossetian war in 2008 and the invasion of Iraq in 2003 were covered by the Western MSM. During the North Ossetian war (which was started by Georgia, not Russia and which lasted for only 5 days) there was almost like a mass hysteria in the Western MSM. OMFG, Russia has again invaded it's small neighbour!!111! We need NATO!!!111! We must isolate and punish Russia!!1111! A small shining democracy of Georgia is under a brutal attack by it's "bullying" giant neighbour!!111!!

None of this was seen in the Western MSM during the Iraq war, started illegally by the US and it's allies. The war was fought for oil, lasted for many years and resulted hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. In Finland the media was either neutral (YLE) or supportive (MTV3 and Helsingin Sanomat) of this immoral, illegal war. MTV3 even went out to call those Iraqis who defended their country against a foreign invasion as "terrorists". None of the MSM here was strongly or even moderately against the invasion of Iraq.

Now imagine if Russia had done the invasion of Iraq instead of the Western countries? Do you really think the media's coverage of the war would not have been any different?
Just letting everyone know, this is in fact ******** and not factually correct. Though MTV3 is so incompetent in just about everything, they might as well have, but it's not due to bias but incompetence.

By they way, perhaps Ozo should clean up this thread a bit or move some posts to the Political Discussion section. Veering way off topic here.

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11-30-2013, 12:08 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Well, if you spend on nothing, invest in nothing, and rely on gas prices to get you by...

Russia's in trouble, don't pretend everything is all rosy. As a citizen, it's in your best interest to be concerned, is it not?
Peter25 in a born and bred Finn, in case you didn't know. Hasn't even been to Russia(at least has never admitted to doing so).


Last edited by Jussi: 11-30-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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11-30-2013, 12:22 PM
  #49
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I can guarantee you that the Iraq War got more press in the West than the August War.
You are correct, but like I said it is not "what they report" but "how they report it".

There was very little if not any criticism towards Iraqi war in the Western MSM. The MSM was like a cheerleader for this war.


Last edited by Peter25: 11-30-2013 at 12:32 PM.
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11-30-2013, 12:29 PM
  #50
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economic crisis and blah blah blah. putin's regime is strong as ever. barring some epic economic collapse i'm sure they can always find some natural resources to pump aboard which in its turn will afford them to continue this practice of amoral spending on sportsmen salaries and on financial support of foreign clubs
no need to worry

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