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russia economic crisis - will it affect KHL?

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Old
12-02-2013, 10:40 AM
  #101
Sokil
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
"Peaceful protesters" in Kiev demanding "freedom and democracy":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=4yHiUKdVWeo
This was the day after the crackdown on peaceful protesters. It stopped being entirely peaceful the second the troops decided to change the game. I don't think anyone would pretend the Dec 1 riots were peaceful.

why is freedom and democracy in scare quotes?

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12-02-2013, 10:43 AM
  #102
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For Ukraine the future will be even more bleak if it signs this agreement. Ukraine's heavy industry will be completely annihilated. So will their aerospace industry. Who is going to buy their plane parts after Russia stops buying them? Certainly not EU. These companies will go bankrupt.
So Russia's going to stop purchasing out of spite? Sounds like a great trading partner, lots of longevity there

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I studied how Croatia's economy has developed since it signed the association agreement with the EU in 2005.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm...pcode=tec00115

According to this Croatia's economy is now slightly smaller than it was in 2005 when it signed the association agreement with the EU. The association agreement with the EU has brought zero growth to Croatia's economy. Croatia is a small neighbor for wealthy countries such as Austria and Italy, which should drive up the Croatian economy. But instead of economic growth Croatia has experienced almost a decade of stagnation.
Croatia is doing better than Serbia

Looking at those numbers, and factoring the 2008 global economic crisis, their growth rate seems to be lock step in with Italy. A country doing bad...but it's not like they're doing much worse than their neighbors (rather than doing bad with wealthy neighbors)

What is troubling is that they have the lowest projected growth in 2015, Romania is 2x ahead of them...but seeing as Romania is the same as the UK, that's a good, no?


Last edited by Sokil: 12-02-2013 at 10:50 AM.
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12-02-2013, 10:51 AM
  #103
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So Russia's going to stop purchasing out of spite? Sounds like a great trading partner, lots of longevity there
You are naive if you think that Ukraine can keep it's current position in trade with Russia if Ukraine joins EU or even signs the association agreement. There is a price to pay for Ukraine for this decision. Russia has made it clear.

Why should Russia continue to subsidize Ukraine's economy if Ukraine wants to be in the EU?

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12-02-2013, 11:04 AM
  #104
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You are naive if you think that Ukraine can keep it's current position in trade with Russia if Ukraine joins EU or even signs the association agreement. There is a price to pay for Ukraine for this decision. Russia has made it clear.

Why should Russia continue to subsidize Ukraine's economy if Ukraine wants to be in the EU?
Well ofcourse,russia needs puppet states and if god forbid one of those puppet states is disobidient,Russia cant support that,now can it?

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12-02-2013, 11:09 AM
  #105
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The default meaning of the word "Russian" in the English language is actually closer to Russian "Rossiyanin", it's a deriviative of Russia (Rossiya). It may be used synonymously with "Russky" (a derivative of Rus') in many cases, and that's how it works for the Russian language too, but when it's used in the sense "ethnic Russian" using "ethnic Russian" is more preferable, I think. A lot of Russians who aren't good at English often don't even realize that and end up making awkward statements similar to Yakupov's "I'm Muslim, I'm not Russian".
I specifically mentioned that I am not russian ethnically.

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12-02-2013, 11:14 AM
  #106
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I specifically mentioned that I am not russian ethnically.
muslim?

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12-02-2013, 11:15 AM
  #107
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Well ofcourse,russia needs puppet states and if god forbid one of those puppet states is disobidient,Russia cant support that,now can it?
Puppet state is not how the relationship between Ukraine and Russia should be described. Partnership is a better word.

Do you know what puppet state means? Let me clarify. The USA invades Iraq, commits a brutal genocide against Iraqi people, takes control of it's oil and installs a puppet government to Iraq. The relationship between Iraq and USA is a relationship between a vassal/puppet state and a master state.

The situation is not like this with Russia and Ukraine. Russia has not invaded Ukraine. Russia has not forced it's will upon Ukraine.

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12-02-2013, 11:16 AM
  #108
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This was the day after the crackdown on peaceful protesters. It stopped being entirely peaceful the second the troops decided to change the game. I don't think anyone would pretend the Dec 1 riots were peaceful.

why is freedom and democracy in scare quotes?
Because he's a Russophile that wants Ukraine to rejoin Russia.

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12-02-2013, 11:19 AM
  #109
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Because he's a Russophile that wants Ukraine to rejoin Russia.
only with finland

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12-02-2013, 11:23 AM
  #110
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why is freedom and democracy in scare quotes?
Because these things should be decided by elections, but by street mobs.

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12-02-2013, 11:24 AM
  #111
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Puppet state is not how the relationship between Ukraine and Russia should be described. Partnership is a better word.

Do you know what puppet state means? Let me clarify. The USA invades Iraq, commits a brutal genocide against Iraqi people, takes control of it's oil and installs a puppet government to Iraq. The relationship between Iraq and USA is a relationship between a vassal/puppet state and a master state.

The situation is not like this with Russia and Ukraine. Russia has not invaded Ukraine. Russia has not forced it's will upon Ukraine.
Yes it is,Ukraine has been bending over backwards for russians and their gas/oil,their President is a complete russian puppet
And what exactly has this to do with US?

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12-02-2013, 11:24 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Puppet state is not how the relationship between Ukraine and Russia should be described. Partnership is a better word.

Do you know what puppet state means? Let me clarify. The USA invades Iraq, commits a brutal genocide against Iraqi people, takes control of it's oil and installs a puppet government to Iraq. The relationship between Iraq and USA is a relationship between a vassal/puppet state and a master state.

The situation is not like this with Russia and Ukraine. Russia has not invaded Ukraine. Russia has not forced it's will upon Ukraine.
Well that took longer than expected... All this thread needs is the "rogue state" and it's just like in Jatkoaika with you...

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12-02-2013, 11:25 AM
  #113
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I believe that Russia will not care that much about Ukraine as it used to after building the South Stream (and with Black Sea Fleet deal done). Joining EU was a trump of the opposition, but what are they going to do after it and with Russia not trying to affect Ukraine's interior policy? I think some new neutral powers are to come, otherwise nobody will be able to keep the leadership any properly.
Anyways, the discussion is far not about the proposed "Russian economic crisis"

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12-02-2013, 11:26 AM
  #114
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only with finland
No, he's actually said it himself on Finnish message boards. He longs for the Soviet Union days.

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12-02-2013, 11:29 AM
  #115
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No, he's actually said it himself on Finnish message boards. He longs for the Soviet Union days.
Oh boy would he`d be in for a treat,empty market shelves,major poverty,KGB watching over every step of the way and ofcourse everyone wearing the same clothes,because USSR couldnt afford to produce more than one type of lets say shoes for example.

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12-02-2013, 11:29 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Puppet state is not how the relationship between Ukraine and Russia should be described. Partnership is a better word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
You are naive if you think that Ukraine can keep it's current position in trade with Russia if Ukraine joins EU or even signs the association agreement. There is a price to pay for Ukraine for this decision. Russia has made it clear.

Why should Russia continue to subsidize Ukraine's economy if Ukraine wants to be in the EU?
That's how you treat your "partners". Don't you dare to make new partners!

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12-02-2013, 11:31 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by BalticWarrior View Post
Yes it is,Ukraine has been bending over backwards for russians and their gas/oil,their President is a complete russian puppet
And what exactly has this to do with US?
You are once again confusing things. Economic policy making is not the same as a military invasion.

Russia is an independent state and it has a right to decide how to run it's economic policy.

Currently Ukraine gets Russian gas with subsidized price. That means Ukrainians have to pay less for Russian gas than Germans. Such an intimidation and blackmail!

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12-02-2013, 11:32 AM
  #118
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Yes it is,Ukraine has been bending over backwards for russians and their gas/oil,their President is a complete russian puppet
And what exactly has this to do with US?
excuse me, he's a puppet because of the putin's gas contracts with timoshenko?
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No, he's actually said it himself on Finnish message boards. He longs for the Soviet Union days.
sometimes you have to just let it go, but the guy is unique i grant him that

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12-02-2013, 11:34 AM
  #119
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excuse me, he's a puppet because of the putin's gas contracts with timoshenko?
No because he was obviously blackmailed not to join the EU something along the lines of : "if you join the EU,gas will be cut off".
Thats NOT,how two democratic countries function and make economic deals with eachother.
A proper president would have joined the EU,no matter what.

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12-02-2013, 11:36 AM
  #120
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That's how you treat your "partners". Don't you dare to make new partners!
How does Russia treat Ukraine?

Sells gas to Ukraine with a subsidized price. Buys Ukrainian products that no one else would buy.

Russia is by far the most important partner (yes, partner) for Ukraine.

But if Ukraine is joins a union which is hostile to Russia (yes, EU is hostile towards Russia) then it will change the way Russia views Ukraine.

For Russia's benefit it has to be said that it does not practice military interventions against small, weak countries the same way as western "democracies" do.

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12-02-2013, 11:39 AM
  #121
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No because he was obviously blackmailed not to join the EU something along the lines of : "if you join the EU,gas will be cut off".
Thats NOT,how two democratic countries function and make economic deals with eachother.
A proper president would have joined the EU,no matter what.
it doesnt make him putin's puppet. ultimatly it's his decision no matter what. heaping on russia the blame for all your failures needs to stop.

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12-02-2013, 11:39 AM
  #122
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Thats NOT,how two democratic countries function and make economic deals with eachother.
What is your alternative then?

Conduct a bombing campaign and a military intervention which results a "regime change"? I mean that is how "western democracies" treat governments that they don't like.

Would it be good if Russia also became a "western democracy" in this sense?

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12-02-2013, 11:41 AM
  #123
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No, he's actually said it himself on Finnish message boards. He longs for the Soviet Union days.
Don't lie.

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12-02-2013, 11:41 AM
  #124
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Would it be good if Russia also became a "western democracy" in this sense?
There is no way for the West to like any strong Russia no matter be it democratic, capitalist or communist.

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12-02-2013, 11:42 AM
  #125
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What is your alternative then?

Conduct a bombing campaign and a military intervention which results a "regime change"? I mean that is how "western democracies" treat governments that they don't like.

Would it be good if Russia also became a "western democracy" in this sense?
Join EU,join NATO set up proper capitalistic society,slowly but surely getting rid corruption and easing into the western world.
Regime change has to happen,but its not up to me or you or anybody else,but the Ukrainian people.

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