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russia economic crisis - will it affect KHL?

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12-02-2013, 12:43 PM
  #126
Garl
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
First of all I'm not going to even bother with yous view of EU which is just too crackpot.

Second, I've been reading about this from the Finnish hockey site jatkoaika.com, where a couple of posters who've visited Ukraine a number of times and have friends there and those friends have filled them in what's been happening there. They said the riots were basically initiated by government forces who intentionally began riling up the most volatile protesters. They also said the country basically consists of 4 regions even, separated geographically. So it is anything but a unified country. One poster who's visited Donetsk area a lot said his friends who define themselves as Ukrainian Ukrainians, are especially worried about where the country is headed. They feel the president in nothing but a corrupt puppet of Russia and also have issue with him not being able to speak Ukrainian Russian. They also said there were closer to 700K people marching.

Live stream from Ukraine for those interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=girrrlTQzbg&noredirect=1

Also, the Ukrainian unrest is not the topic of this thread and should be discussed more here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/fo...play.php?f=160 Perhaps Sokil could open up a thread about this there?
You would argue that EU is a globalist structure? Strange, I think that is by default, they make common laws and common currency for absolutely different countries, aswell as the fact that all nationalist or even patriotic forces in Europe are against EU. Like your True Finns party for example.
Anyway, it's good that you don't want to argue and tell it right away. Not very good that different opinion is a crackpot by your definition.

As for your opinions about Ukraine, well, let's just say that next tim you should not try to paint everything in black and white colours. I understand it's easier to understand the situation when you have Janukovich as a bad guy and his opponents as good guys but it's not the case really. In USA they call it partisan politics. When for example for MSNBC everything Obama does is perfect and everything Tea Party does is racist and fascist.

Since you are not from Ukraine and haven't even been there(for example I sometimes stay there for long periods during the year) you don't really have a great understanding of what is going on, espescially since Ukraine is so much different from Europe, it's another world.
If you have some global opinion, like if you're pro-EU anti-Russian to the core and in any case you will use partisan politics then just say it.

I definately hope you're trying to be objective though.

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12-02-2013, 12:43 PM
  #127
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There is no way for the West to like any strong Russia no matter be it democratic, capitalist or communist.
Well you havent given this option a honest shot,now have you?

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12-02-2013, 12:44 PM
  #128
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Oh boy would he`d be in for a treat,empty market shelves,major poverty,KGB watching over every step of the way and ofcourse everyone wearing the same clothes,because USSR couldnt afford to produce more than one type of lets say shoes for example.
For your information "Jussi" was banned from this same message boards because of constant breaking of the rules there

And what he says is simply not true. I do not want to see another Soviet Union. But some kind of a confederation between Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan would be beneficial for these countries and for the world.

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12-02-2013, 12:45 PM
  #129
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Don't lie.
The ironing is delicious considering you've been caught doing that numerous times at Jatkoaika.

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12-02-2013, 12:47 PM
  #130
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For your information "Jussi" was banned from this same message boards because of constant breaking of the rules there

And what he says is simply not true. I do not want to see another Soviet Union. But some kind of a confederation between Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan would be beneficial for these countries and for the world.
If i was Belorussian or Ukrainian i would try to get away from Russia as quickly as possible.

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12-02-2013, 12:47 PM
  #131
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This was the day after the crackdown on peaceful protesters. It stopped being entirely peaceful the second the troops decided to change the game. I don't think anyone would pretend the Dec 1 riots were peaceful.

why is freedom and democracy in scare quotes?
It's a catchfrase just like "Kill the bourgeuois!" and "Proletarians of the World unite!" was in previous times. It should be used in quotes, because it's a cheap losung for the crowd.

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12-02-2013, 12:48 PM
  #132
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It's a catchfrase just like "Kill the bourgeuois!" and "Proletarians of the World unite!" was in previous times. It should be used in quotes, because it's a cheap losung for the crowd.
Maybe for you its a cheap losung,dont speak for everyone.

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12-02-2013, 12:51 PM
  #133
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Join EU
Two problems.

1. Poland and Baltic states would veto any attempt to get Russia into EU. The British and Americans would also be against any attempt for Russia to join EU.

2. Russia does not want to enter EU because of it's vast natural resources. Russia wants to keep them completely for themselves and not share them with EU. Russia is also not interested in subsidizing poorly managed economies such as Greece.


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,join NATO
Soviet Union wanted to join NATO after WWII but was denied an entry there. Russia also wanted to join NATO under Yeltsin in 1991-1993 but was again denied entry.

NATO does not want Russia. It only wants countries that have a common border with Russia.

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set up proper capitalistic society,
Russia's economy has improved greatly during the last 15 years and in fact Russia is richer country than your country Latvia per capita.

But what do you think about those military interventions and forced regime changes? Should Russia try to emulate the West in this regard as well?

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12-02-2013, 12:52 PM
  #134
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For your information "Jussi" was banned from this same message boards because of constant breaking of the rules there

And what he says is simply not true. I do not want to see another Soviet Union. But some kind of a confederation between Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan would be beneficial for these countries and for the world.
The reason for me getting banned was because or revealing the identity of a moderator (who had done it himself) and because of "chatting" in non hockey threads, which I fully admit being guilty of. You on the other hand never admitted to being guilty of anything. FYI, he was also banned for a long time from the site after 9/11 but for some reason they took him back. But since he failed to change his colors, he's been banned from all non-hockey discussion due to being an exceptionally poor debater, Russophilia, antisemitism and misogyny, throwing his favorite mantra "USA is a rogue state" when all else fails and constantly taking discussion off-topic, which he managed to do with this one as well.

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12-02-2013, 12:52 PM
  #135
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The ironing is delicious considering you've been caught doing that numerous times at Jatkoaika.
Says someone who was banned from there

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12-02-2013, 12:53 PM
  #136
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poor debater, Russophilia, antisemitism and misogyny.


I see no reason to continue this "debate" with you.

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12-02-2013, 12:58 PM
  #137
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Well you havent given this option a honest shot,now have you?
That's not possible to implement any time soon. Closed-minded generation should pass, more work should be done in the regions, not in large cities. And it still doesn't guarantee that Russia will be strong and democratic at the same time.

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12-02-2013, 12:58 PM
  #138
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There is no way for the West to like any strong Russia no matter be it democratic, capitalist or communist.
"Democratic" is often only a code word for governments that play along with western demands and rules.

In 1990's Russia was "democratic" even when Yeltsin shelled his own parliament building because back then Russia did what it was told to do.

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12-02-2013, 01:01 PM
  #139
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You would argue that EU is a globalist structure? Strange, I think that is by default, they make common laws and common currency for absolutely different countries, aswell as the fact that all nationalist or even patriotic forces in Europe are against EU. Like your True Finns party for example.
Anyway, it's good that you don't want to argue and tell it right away. Not very good that different opinion is a crackpot by your definition.

As for your opinions about Ukraine, well, let's just say that next tim you should not try to paint everything in black and white colours. I understand it's easier to understand the situation when you have Janukovich as a bad guy and his opponents as good guys but it's not the case really. In USA they call it partisan politics. When for example for MSNBC everything Obama does is perfect and everything Tea Party does is racist and fascist.

Since you are not from Ukraine and haven't even been there(for example I sometimes stay there for long periods during the year) you don't really have a great understanding of what is going on, espescially since Ukraine is so much different from Europe, it's another world.
If you have some global opinion, like if you're pro-EU anti-Russian to the core and in any case you will use partisan politics then just say it.

I definately hope you're trying to be objective though.
True Finns are nothing but an incompetent populist party, they had a chance to influence the decision making after the last parliamentary elections but instead stayed in the opposition because they would have been exposed more. They can only offer criticism, not solutions. They spend more time in the news these days for their members exposing their racism and trying to downplay that.

For what it's worth, I don't by any sense claim the EU is perfect. It's grown into a bureaucratic monster that no longer operates the way it was intended to.


Last edited by Jussi: 12-02-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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12-02-2013, 01:04 PM
  #140
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Maybe for you its a cheap losung,dont speak for everyone.
Yeah, useful idiots like those, just like in the past with those other catchfrases that I used.)

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12-02-2013, 01:09 PM
  #141
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True Finns are nothing but an incompetent populist party, they had a chance to influence the decision making after the last parliamentary elections but instead stayed in the opposition because they would have been exposed more. They can only offer criticism, not solutions. They spend more time in the news these days for their members exposing their racism and trying to downplay that.

Fro what it's worth, I don't by any sense claim the EU is perfect. It's grown into a bureaucratic monster that no longer operates the way it was intended to.
OK, thanks for you view. It's intresting. And largerly agree with you on your description of EU.

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12-02-2013, 01:14 PM
  #142
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OK, thanks for you view. It's intresting. And largerly agree with you on your description of EU.
The sad thing about the global economy is that EU is a "necessary monster", leaving it and the euro would be more devastating for many countries(like Finland).

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12-02-2013, 03:04 PM
  #143
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There is an interesting read on lenta.ru about the events, for those who can read Russian...

http://lenta.ru/articles/2013/12/02/maydan/

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12-02-2013, 05:06 PM
  #144
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If KHL wants to compare with NHL or rather be even better within, let's say, 20 years, Russia needs to be erected on healthy base. That means that the country definitely can't be leaded by people like Putin - of course that his authoritative style is discouraging investors and Western bloc don't trust him and economics is going down.

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12-02-2013, 05:12 PM
  #145
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In a deepest sense the battle for Ukraine and Western Russia is almost a thousand years old. The Romans/Anglosaxons have always desired more lebensraum, and the only direction to get that is in the East, in the Land of Rus.

Back in the 13th century the Teutonic Knights (Germans) invaded the Land of Rus but were pushed back by the Novgorodian troops led by Alexander Nevsky.

In the beginning of the 17th century, in the so called "Times of Troubles, the Land of Rus was being invaded and occupied by Swedish and Polish armies. They even managed to capture Moscow and Russia was this close of collapsing. But eventually the enemy was driven out of the country.

In the beginning of the 18th century the Swedish king Charles XII invaded Russia. After an initial success the Charles army was defeated in the battle of Poltava. After the Swedish defeat the Russians invaded Sweden and captured the Baltics, Karelia and Ingermanland, where St.Petersburgh was built. This defeat also ended Sweden's status as an European great power. Some say that one reason why Sweden is still today so hostile towards Russia is because of the defeat in Poltava, which cost Sweden a status as a great power.

Later in the same century Sweden tried to take back what it had lost and attacked Russia in the "War of Hats", but Sweden lacked the strength to fight a war against Russia and the war was again lost.

In the beginning of the 19th century Napoleon launched his Grande Arme to attack the Land of Rus. This was the greatest, biggest war that the world had ever seen. Napoleon had great success and captured Moscow, but the retreating Russians burned everything down and the only thing Napoleon really ever captured was burned down cities without people and food. Then came winter and catastrophe for Napoleon. Russian counter attack drove the weakened Grande Arme out of the country.

In the 20th century Germany, which had become the greatest land power in Europe, once again set it's sights in the Land of Rus. The First world war, which Russia entered while not ready and ill advised by the incompetent tsar Nicholas II, was lost. Russia lost Poland, Ukraine, Baltics, Finland. This was the biggest defeat that Russia had suffered in centuries. Fortunately for Russia, Germany lost the war which enabled Russia to capture back Ukraine, but Poland, Finland and Baltics were lost. The defeat also ended the centuries old Romanov dynasty and Bolsheviks took the power. Soviet Union was born.

Only 20 years later Hitler and Nazis had taken power in Germany, and again set their sights into Land of Rus for lebensraum. After bloody and fierce battles the Soviet army was able to push the Nazis out of the Land of Rus, but with great cost. However, the victory gave the country a status of a superpower, which it had never had before. Russia was a great power, but never a superpower.

A later mismanagement of the economy and other mistakes weakened the country, which eventually resulted into a breakup in 1991. Soviet Union ceased to exist and the centuries old connection between Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan was at least partially broken. The Soviets managed to do what Hitler and Napoleon did not: they broke up the country.

Currently Russia is in a position of retreat. Russia has not won any geopolitical victories in decades. NATO has enlarged into borders of Russia, which would have been unthinkable in 1989. Russia is being constantly pushed towards East by the Western coalition of the United States and European Union.

Right now the battleground is in Ukraine, which is an actual part of the Land of Rus. The "first" Russia was Kievan Rus. Ukraine is not wanted by the EU because of it's great economy, but because of it's location and natural resources. The capture of Ukraine is also one way to prevent Russia from regaining a status of a great power. Zbigniew Brzezinski, an influential Polish-American politician and a known Russia hater, has written than without Ukraine Russia is only a local power, but with Ukraine Russia is a superpower.

If Russia "loses" Ukraine it will be one of the many geopolitical defeats that Russia has suffered since 1991. But if Russia manages to get Ukraine "back", it could be seen as a beginning of a Russian counter offensive after a long period of defeats.

The West wants Ukraine. Russia wants Ukraine. Who wins? I cannot say that yet.


Last edited by Peter25: 12-02-2013 at 06:07 PM.
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12-02-2013, 05:18 PM
  #146
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If KHL wants to compare with NHL or rather be even better within, let's say, 20 years, Russia needs to be erected on healthy base.
What do you mean by "erecting Russia on healthy base"?

How is Russia "less healthy" economically when you compare Russia to other countries with similar development level?

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12-02-2013, 06:59 PM
  #147
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What do you mean by "erecting Russia on healthy base"?

How is Russia "less healthy" economically when you compare Russia to other countries with similar development level?
He already said it in the part you left out: the country needs to run more clearly democratically, the power needs to be more spread out instead of being focused some much around Putin and his inner circle.

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12-03-2013, 12:54 AM
  #148
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Two problems.

1. Poland and Baltic states would veto any attempt to get Russia into EU. The British and Americans would also be against any attempt for Russia to join EU.

2. Russia does not want to enter EU because of it's vast natural resources. Russia wants to keep them completely for themselves and not share them with EU. Russia is also not interested in subsidizing poorly managed economies such as Greece.



Soviet Union wanted to join NATO after WWII but was denied an entry there. Russia also wanted to join NATO under Yeltsin in 1991-1993 but was again denied entry.

NATO does not want Russia. It only wants countries that have a common border with Russia.


Russia's economy has improved greatly during the last 15 years and in fact Russia is richer country than your country Latvia per capita.

But what do you think about those military interventions and forced regime changes? Should Russia try to emulate the West in this regard as well?
I was talking about Ukraine,not Russia

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12-03-2013, 01:42 AM
  #149
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The sad thing about the global economy is that EU is a "necessary monster", leaving it and the euro would be more devastating for many countries(like Finland).
I was growing up in Russia in 90's, so I know a thing or two about crisis. I even remember those awful lines in the late USSR when people were trying to buy some food, and you never knew if you will be able to do it, or the shop will run out of food before it's your turn.

The crisis is time of reformation. It changes the way you think. People in the West are so afraid of having to go through some period of economic difficulties that would probably move you out of your safe space and maybe you would have to be satisfied with less that you usually get. We in Russia are different, we have seen our economy in total ruins. And we know that with effort you can rebuild that pretty fast.
A worse thing is to keep digging. To keep bureaucratic monster spreading both in size and in influence. Crisis is inevitable, the question is when and how much?

I'm pretty sure Finland will be fine. With EU or without. But you better not be afraid of crisis.

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12-03-2013, 02:43 AM
  #150
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He already said it in the part you left out: the country needs to run more clearly democratically, the power needs to be more spread out instead of being focused some much around Putin and his inner circle.
Once again, he did not explain how Russia being run "more democratically" would improve it's economy.

Poland, which by Western standards has a more "democratic" governance than Russia, has achieved worse growth rates than Russia during the last decade and Poland is also poorer than Russia in terms of GDP per capita. Same can be said for Baltic countries. All of them are EU members who have received generous EU aid since 2004, while Russia has been "on it's own" with great military expenditures which Poland and Baltic countries do not have.

By this comparison how "democratically" a country is governed does not seem to have a correlation to it's economic growth. More relevant issue is corruption, but yet again slashing away corruption does not require "democracy". If we look at Russia the least "corrupt" period during Russia's recent history was under Josif Stalin. And the most corrupt period in Russia's recent history was during the Yeltsin years, which were supposed to be "democratic".


Last edited by Peter25: 12-03-2013 at 02:48 AM.
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