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General Discussion (Team/Player/Trade Talk/Speculation/News), Part VIII

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Old
12-10-2013, 11:08 AM
  #1001
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Originally Posted by SteveCangialosi123 View Post
I don't see Larsson's huge upside. Generally, someone with all the physical tools that hasn't put it all together is considered to have major upside. What are Larsson's tools? He's slow, not a great shot, not particularly strong...He's pretty good positionally and he's a pretty good passer. Also he's 21. Those are the only things I see really. Gelinas looks like he can be much much much more of an impact player. He can learn defense. Larsson can't learn how to have a world class shot.
There's not one aspect in Larsson's game that has me buzzing. He can make some solid breakout passes and that's about it.

Like you said, his foot speed is below average, his shot is on the same level as Andy Greene, he doesn't utilise his body to his advantage and with that said, he's labeled as a possible #1.

Making solid breakout passes shouldn't be your only quality if you expect to be a legit #1. He's still young, there's no denying that, but is keeping a solid "all around" d-man really worth it when we have a couple of players who can do what Adam would give us and then some? We need a mix of veterans and youngsters, so saying we can dress Gélinas-Merrill, Larsson-Severson, Santini-Scarlett just isn't realistic.

Andy Greene isn't going anywhere IMO, Gélinas and Merrill are locks for next year, we'll most probably buy out #28 leaving us with Salvador as our only defensive d-man, Harrold will probably be around as our #6 so that leaves one spot on our roster and a #7.

The two spots that need to be filled can be done pretty easily and if we can upgrade our offense with a young stud, I don't see how it can't be to our advantage?

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12-10-2013, 11:14 AM
  #1002
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Edmonton is doing all it can do to muck up until it's McDavid time.
Maybe. Doesn't change the fact that Eberle is one-dimensional and lazy and Yak is a young, inconsistent question mark. We're very much overrating their value.

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12-10-2013, 11:17 AM
  #1003
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You don't make a move to make a move. You don't panic and trade Larsson for tissue soft players just because we need "offensive potential."

Edmonton is looking awesome with all their offensive potential.
So Eberle will be this paper soft player for his entire career? Did you stop and ask yourself why he's this paper soft player today and can it be linked to the fact that he's been playing on a team that has no clue how to build a proper winner by installing a certain "mindset" the players will buy into?

I'm certain that if Eberle or Yakupov would get moved to our team, the simple fact that we have about wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more veteran presence in our locker room, would ultimatly spark something in his game that wasn't "necessary" in Edmonton? As of today, Eberle feels like a veteran in a locker room that is filled with youngsters and players who have no "credibility" if they speak their mind between periods or at practice. They do have Ryan Smith but since he's nothing else but a 4th liner and can't back up what he'll say, his veteran presence isn't as significant IMO.

The kids in Edmonton are running the show and that's on management more then anyone else. They think that a bunch of stellar offensive minded teenagers will carry them to the top, wich is nothing short of absurd. Comparing their team with ours is one thing but comparing their locker room to ours is something that shouldn't be done.

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Maybe. Doesn't change the fact that Eberle is one-dimensional and lazy and Yak is a young, inconsistent question mark. We're very much overrating their value.
You might be right about both players... but exactly has Larsson done since breaking into the league that would make this a "bad" deal for us? We can bash opposing players but when our own players haven't lived up to the hype either, it's basically a wash. Yakupov might be this offensively only oriented player and Larsson is this slow footed d-man who's having a hard time bumping #28 and Salvador when their both healthy.

The game goes both ways my friend

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12-10-2013, 11:20 AM
  #1004
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Why do we care if a guy capable of 80+ points(Eberle)is soft? Who gives a ****? And if your point is that he wouldn't fit in the system, I highly doubt Pete is here next year or the year after

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12-10-2013, 11:21 AM
  #1005
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I don't feel comfortable gambling on a career rebound. Especially if the price is Larsson.

You want Henrique? A guy who is struggling? Yea sure fine. Let's talk about a package around him.

But you want Larsson? Or Zajac in a package? Yea no thanks.

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12-10-2013, 11:22 AM
  #1006
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Originally Posted by ThePSEGPowerPoster View Post
I don't feel comfortable gambling on a career rebound. Especially if the price is Larsson.

You want Henrique? A guy who is struggling? Yea sure fine. Let's talk about a package around him.

But you want Larsson? Or Zajac in a package? Yea no thanks.
I've asked you this same question multiple times and you haven't given me a answer yet... What makes you think Adam Larsson is viewed as a stud prospect who's capable of being a legit #1 blueliner, by other Gm's, with what we've seen from him thus far?

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12-10-2013, 11:23 AM
  #1007
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I don't feel comfortable gambling on a career rebound. Especially if the price is Larsson.

You want Henrique? A guy who is struggling? Yea sure fine. Let's talk about a package around him.

But you want Larsson? Or Zajac in a package? Yea no thanks.
So Yakupov needs to "rebound his career" after a tough half a year(he was good last year) and Larsson is on track to be a number 1? Am I missing something? What exactly has Larsson done other than not look bad at a young age? I think Yak is waaaayyyy more likely to be a consistent 30 goal guy than Larsson being a number 1

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12-10-2013, 11:24 AM
  #1008
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Why do we care if a guy capable of 80+ points(Eberle)is soft? Who gives a ****? And if your point is that he wouldn't fit in the system, I highly doubt Pete is here next year or the year after
Because if he's hurting us defensively and he's not working with his teammates those points don't really matter. Edmonton has a bunch of guys who can put up points but they don't win games.

Eberle here doesn't (1) translate to 80 points necessarily and (2) work period. I don't want a tissue soft, one-dimensional player who plays 1 v 5 and gives away the puck as often as he does. He has 29 giveaways in 31 games. 22nd in the league. Marek has 30, by the way. Zajac has 8.

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12-10-2013, 11:25 AM
  #1009
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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
I've asked you this same question multiple times and you haven't given me a answer yet... What makes you think Adam Larsson is viewed as a stud prospect who's capable of being a legit #1 blueliner, by other Gm's, with what we've seen from him thus far?
I don't care how other GM's view him. You don't trade a player that early in his career before you know what you have. So if someone wants him, they overpay. And if they don't, you don't look to trade him. There's no rush to trade Adam Larsson. None. We shouldn't be shopping him for someone else's problem.

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So Yakupov needs to "rebound his career" after a tough half a year(he was good last year) and Larsson is on track to be a number 1? Am I missing something? What exactly has Larsson done other than not look bad at a young age? I think Yak is waaaayyyy more likely to be a consistent 30 goal guy than Larsson being a number 1
Never said he's a for sure #1 guy. I am not risking Larsson blowing up elsewhere by trading him before I know hat I have. It's poor asset management.

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12-10-2013, 11:26 AM
  #1010
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Because if he's hurting us defensively and he's not working with his teammates those points don't really matter. Edmonton has a bunch of guys who can put up points but they don't win games.

Eberle here doesn't (1) translate to 80 points necessarily and (2) work period. I don't want a tissue soft, one-dimensional player who plays 1 v 5 and gives away the puck as often as he does. He has 29 giveaways in 31 games. 22nd in the league. Marek has 30, by the way. Zajac has 8.
And Zajac does close to zero offensively on his own. If you're citing giveaways you must've not been a Kovy fan. He was world class in that area. Offensively talented players give the puck away. Especially guys in their early 20's. He has the talent. Not so sure about Larsson.

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12-10-2013, 11:30 AM
  #1011
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Same lineup as NYR game... Zidlicky in for Harrold.

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12-10-2013, 11:35 AM
  #1012
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I don't care how other GM's view him. You don't trade a player that early in his career before you know what you have. So if someone wants him, they overpay. And if they don't, you don't look to trade him. There's no rush to trade Adam Larsson. None. We shouldn't be shopping him for someone else's problem.



Never said he's a for sure #1 guy. I am not risking Larsson blowing up elsewhere by trading him before I know hat I have. It's poor asset management.
So you're basically bashing the play of youngsters on opposing teams while constantly giving rave reviews to our own prospects despite not showing anything to back your praises towards Larsson... gotcha

Why can't the contrary be possible? Why can't Yakupov all of a sudden explode into the more physical "Pavel Bure" he was once labeled prior to the draft? Is it only our prospects who can rise from the ashes elsewhere?

A move like this is basically flipping two promising prospects to satisfy team needs and nothing more.

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12-10-2013, 11:35 AM
  #1013
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Originally Posted by SteveCangialosi123 View Post
And Zajac does close to zero offensively on his own. If you're citing giveaways you must've not been a Kovy fan. He was world class in that area. Offensively talented players give the puck away. Especially guys in their early 20's. He has the talent. Not so sure about Larsson.
You're giving the benefit of the doubt to a player you're not as familiar or frustrated with. A player that, if the script was flipped, you would want traded for someone like Larsson. You would be making the same excuses for Larsson.

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12-10-2013, 11:37 AM
  #1014
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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
There's not one aspect in Larsson's game that has me buzzing. He can make some solid breakout passes and that's about it.

Like you said, his foot speed is below average, his shot is on the same level as Andy Greene, he doesn't utilise his body to his advantage and with that said, he's labeled as a possible #1.

Making solid breakout passes shouldn't be your only quality if you expect to be a legit #1. He's still young, there's no denying that, but is keeping a solid "all around" d-man really worth it when we have a couple of players who can do what Adam would give us and then some? We need a mix of veterans and youngsters, so saying we can dress Gélinas-Merrill, Larsson-Severson, Santini-Scarlett just isn't realistic.

Andy Greene isn't going anywhere IMO, Gélinas and Merrill are locks for next year, we'll most probably buy out #28 leaving us with Salvador as our only defensive d-man, Harrold will probably be around as our #6 so that leaves one spot on our roster and a #7.

The two spots that need to be filled can be done pretty easily and if we can upgrade our offense with a young stud, I don't see how it can't be to our advantage?
You mean Andy Greene, who's #1 on our defense and #6 on the team in goals, #1 on the defense and #3 on the team in points, and #3 on the team in PPP?

The same Andy Greene who's been on a +30 point pace for four of the past five years?

I would LOVE it if Larsson became Uber-Greene. Greene is a great role model for a young defenseman to strive for. He's a legitimate top pairing defenseman while being legally certified dwarf. Larsson's got the size and physical tools Greene could only dream of, if he can sharpen his mental game to Andy's level and increase his foot speed a little bit he'll be a top-tier defenseman in this league for a long time.

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12-10-2013, 11:39 AM
  #1015
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Originally Posted by SteveCangialosi123 View Post
And Zajac does close to zero offensively on his own. If you're citing giveaways you must've not been a Kovy fan. He was world class in that area. Offensively talented players give the puck away. Especially guys in their early 20's. He has the talent. Not so sure about Larsson.
That's a fair point. However Eberle doesn't have nearly the impact in the offensive zone that Kovy had nor does he have his goal scoring ability. He's a guy that despite his production is frustrating because he's lazy on the ice. That's very damning. If you're banking on our veterans getting through to him - fine. I agree. But you give up Larsson for that chance?

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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
So you're basically bashing the play of youngsters on opposing teams while constantly giving rave reviews to our own prospects despite not showing anything to back your praises towards Larsson... gotcha

Why can't the contrary be possible? Why can't Yakupov all of a sudden explode into the more physical "Pavel Bure" he was once labeled prior to the draft? Is it only our prospects who can rise from the ashes elsewhere?

A move like this is basically flipping two promising prospects to satisfy team needs and nothing more.
I'm not praising Larsson. I'm saying I rather keep the guy we drafted, the guy we know, vs the guy we don't know. I'm saying it's too early to trade Larsson. Let Edmonton figure out their two problems and if they want to trade with us we should be the clear winners in the trade. It is far too early to consider trading Larsson. People want to trade someone right now for the sake of trading.

Eberle is just another guy we'd complain about if we got. 30.8% in the circle who gives away the puck and doesn't play within a system. Costs you just as many goals as he contributes.

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12-10-2013, 11:41 AM
  #1016
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Please don't cite giveaways or takeaways as meaningful statistics. There is tremendous scorekeeper bias with these stats. Additionally, players that have the puck more will obviously give the puck away more than guys who don't control the puck.

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12-10-2013, 11:42 AM
  #1017
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Because if he's hurting us defensively and he's not working with his teammates those points don't really matter. Edmonton has a bunch of guys who can put up points but they don't win games.

Eberle here doesn't (1) translate to 80 points necessarily and (2) work period. I don't want a tissue soft, one-dimensional player who plays 1 v 5 and gives away the puck as often as he does. He has 29 giveaways in 31 games. 22nd in the league. Marek has 30, by the way. Zajac has 8.
Offensive players, let it be forwards or blueliners, will turn the puck over twice as much as your average grinder. That's something that's pretty obvious to see since they have the puck on their stick twice as much as well.

If you look at that stat, I can almost garantee you that the top #10 will be filled with superstar talent. Zajac has 8 turnovers cause his game is pretty simple... cycle the puck down low and grind the **** out of the opposition. Eberle's game is to generate offense and at the NHL level, they won't let you walk in the slot without forcing you to make a bad decision.

If you look at a stat book and you're able to analyse the play of a certain player without even looking at his game or simply taking the role he plays on his team into consideration, you aren't doing a good job at all and the #'s will lie each in every time.


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12-10-2013, 11:48 AM
  #1018
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That's a fair point. However Eberle doesn't have nearly the impact in the offensive zone that Kovy had nor does he have his goal scoring ability. He's a guy that despite his production is frustrating because he's lazy on the ice. That's very damning. If you're banking on our veterans getting through to him - fine. I agree. But you give up Larsson for that chance?



I'm not praising Larsson. I'm saying I rather keep the guy we drafted, the guy we know, vs the guy we don't know. I'm saying it's too early to trade Larsson. Let Edmonton figure out their two problems and if they want to trade with us we should be the clear winners in the trade. It is far too early to consider trading Larsson. People want to trade someone right now for the sake of trading.

Eberle is just another guy we'd complain about if we got. 30.8% in the circle who gives away the puck and doesn't play within a system. Costs you just as many goals as he contributes.
Why do you have this notion that we have to be the clear cut favorites if we attempt to make a trade with the Oilers? What's with this mindset that Yakupov or Eberle are worth Henrique and a mid round pick?

You're talking as if the Oilers would be lucky to get Henrique for Eberle or Yakupov cause both players are a complete mess for reasons you only know. Eberle is too soft and Yakupov doesn't want to play defence. The next thing you'll say is that Crosby complains too much so he brings down the mood in the dressing room, Malkin is Russian and he's just waiting to get a offer from the KHL, Stamkos is probably too injury prone, etc... It just seems that every player who's not wearing our own jersey has some type of "problem" and we're this model franchise who's roster is razor sharp.

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12-10-2013, 11:48 AM
  #1019
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Please don't cite giveaways or takeaways as meaningful statistics. There is tremendous scorekeeper bias with these stats. Additionally, players that have the puck more will obviously give the puck away more than guys who don't control the puck.
That is more than fair. However I cite the various threads in the Edmonton forward with their fanbase united in wanting to trade the guy because of his propensity to turn the puck over and a host of other reasons.

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Offensive players, let it be forwards or blueliners, will turn the puck over twice as much as your average grinder. That's something that's pretty obvious to see since they have the puck on their stick twice as much as well.

If you look at that stat, I can almost garantee you that the top #10 will be filled with superstar talent. Zajac has 8 turnovers cause his game is pretty simple... cycle the puck down low and grind the **** out of the opposition. Eberle's game is to generate offense and at the NHL level, they won't let you walk in the slot without forcing you to make a bad decision.

If you look at a stat book and you're able to analyse the play of a certain player without even looking at his game or simply taking the role he plays on his team into consideration, I aren't doing a good job at all and the #'s will lie each in every time.
That's fair.

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12-10-2013, 11:50 AM
  #1020
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Why do you have this notion that we have to be the clear cut favorites if we attempt to make a trade with the Oilers? What's with this mindset that Yakupov or Eberle are worth Henrique and a mid round pick?

You're talking as if the Oilers would be lucky to get Henrique for Eberle or Yakupov cause both players are a complete mess for reasons you only know. Eberle is too soft, Yakupov doesn't want to play defence, Crosby complains too much, Malkin is Russian, Stamkos is probably too injury prone, etc... It just seems that every player who's not wearing our own jersey has some type of "problem" and we're this model franchise who's roster is razor sharp.
No I am not. I acknowledge it's an underpayment. But that's what I personally would be willing to do. I don't give up a top prospect we know very little about for two of Edmonton's problems.

Do not extrapolate my argument to established players. I'd give every single prospect we have for Stamkos. Neither Eberle or Yak are in his stratosphere. You don't pay a premium for two players on the outs with their franchise. You DO NOT. That's poor asset management.

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12-10-2013, 11:58 AM
  #1021
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No I am not. I acknowledge it's an underpayment. But that's what I personally would be willing to do. I don't give up a top prospect we know very little about for two of Edmonton's problems.

Do not extrapolate my argument to established players. I'd give every single prospect we have for Stamkos. Neither Eberle or Yak are in his stratosphere. You don't pay a premium for two players on the outs with their franchise. You DO NOT. That's poor asset management.
You might seem to think both players are on the outs with their franchise... but I'm pretty certain management in Edmonton are perfectly happy with both forwards, since they're both under the age of 24 and their ceilling is sky high.

Why is Larsson a "premium"? What did he do to warrant such praises that a established top line forward or a kid who led his teams in goals scored as a rookie didn't do?

Again, you have Larsson on this scale that weights in our favour for reasons unknown and to me, it sounds like a comment made by someone who relies on a message board of another team to get it's info instead of actually watching the games.

I'm almost certain that if we made a poll of who's impressed you the most so far in their early career between Yakupov and Larsson, despite Yakupov having played less games, the Russian player would come out on top 8 times out of 10.

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12-10-2013, 12:06 PM
  #1022
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You might seem to think both players are on the outs with their franchise... but I'm pretty certain management in Edmonton are perfectly happy with both forwards, since they're both under the age of 24 and their ceilling is sky high.

Why is Larsson a "premium"? What did he do to warrant such praises that a established top line forward or a kid who led his teams in goals scored as a rookie didn't do?

Again, you have Larsson on this scale that weights in our favour for reasons unknown and to me, it sounds like a comment made by someone who relies on a message board of another team to get it's info instead of actually watching the games.

I'm almost certain that if we made a poll of who's impressed you the most so far in their early career between Yakupov and Larsson, despite Yakupov having played less games, the Russian player would come out on top 8 times out of 10.
You're absolutely right. I've watched only a handful of Edmonton's games this year. I was left unimpressed. I do rely on what the fans of the team say. It's a resource. And when they're consistent with their criticism of a player it's an important resource, in my opinion. So you can dismiss it like it's no big deal but I'm not prepared to do that.

Again you're ignoring my point. I don't really give a damn who has impressed me more right now. I don't care. I don't trade a 21 year-old former consensus top line D for two forwards struggling right now in one way or another (Yak scoring, Eberle everywhere else). I don't trade him until I know what I have. If it turns out I have a top pairing D and it turns out Yak/Eberle establish themselves as top pairing forwards then I strongly consider the deal.

Why are you so quick to trade Larsson? What is the rush?

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12-10-2013, 12:08 PM
  #1023
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Why do we care if a guy capable of 80+ points(Eberle)is soft? Who gives a ****? And if your point is that he wouldn't fit in the system, I highly doubt Pete is here next year or the year after
Soft players aren't good to have around playoff time. They tend to disappear. This team is supposed to be about winning IN the playoffs, not regular season success.

Eberle had one nice season.

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12-10-2013, 12:11 PM
  #1024
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I don't see how trading for Eberle is risky. In my view there is zero risk. Guy had 76 points at 21 and has had solid point paces after that. He's undeniably talented. I think Henrique-Lokti-Eberle would be absolutely deadly. Merrill, Gelinas, and Severson make Larsson moveable.

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12-10-2013, 12:15 PM
  #1025
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
Soft players aren't good to have around playoff time. They tend to disappear. This team is supposed to be about winning IN the playoffs, not regular season success.

Eberle had one nice season.
St. Louis really disappeared in 03 and 2010. Briere really disappeared in 09. Patrick Kane really disappeared in 09 and last year.

Good players don't disappear in the playoffs.

SteveCangialosi123 is offline  
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