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Markham, Arena schedule presser for 11/30; UPD - no public $$ involved

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Old
11-30-2013, 12:49 PM
  #76
JMROWE
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A 2nd NHL. team in Toronto will never happen just like the NFL. will never happen for Toronto because of the over all costs & the lack of interest from both the NHL. & NFL.

NHL.
arena - $400 million
team - $400 million
pay off MLSE. - $ 200 million +

= $1 billion
Do you really think Rousten & his so called investors will be willing to shell out an extra 600 million dollars to get an NHL. team to play in this so called arena because that's how much it will cost maybe even more . besides MLSE. will pull out all the stops to make sure it dose not happen if that means letting Hamilton have an NHL. team & waiving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no money they will do it .

NFL.
Stadium - $ 1 billion +
team - $500 million +

= $ 2 billion

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11-30-2013, 12:56 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
A 2nd NHL. team in Toronto will never happen just like the NFL. will never happen for Toronto because of the over all costs & the lack of interest from both the NHL. & NFL.

NHL.
arena - $400 million
team - $400 million
pay off MLSE. - $ 200 million +

= $1 billion
Do you really think Rousten & his so called investors will be willing to shell out an extra 600 million dollars to get an NHL. team to play in this so called arena because that's how much it will cost maybe even more . besides MLSE. will pull out all the stops to make sure it dose not happen if that means letting Hamilton have an NHL. team & waiving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no money they will do it .

NFL.
Stadium - $ 1 billion +
team - $500 million +

= $ 2 billion
Rogers will get a new team worth of TV content. The people that pay top dollar for Platinums and Golds at the ACC work near King and Bay. They finish work at 6 or 7. There is no chance those guys can make it to Markham for puck drop.

I'm not convinced MLSE will fight all that hard.

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Old
11-30-2013, 12:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Few questions

-If your MLSE, do you prefer Markham over Hamilton or vice-versa?

-What's easier to handle from the NHL's viewpoint in terms of legal challenges, Hamilton or Markham

-Woud Buffalo survive with a Hamilton team?

-So who wins the next wave of expansion if realistically, its between Seattle, Markham, or Quebec?
Markham, as the articlelink points out, TO2 would be a west team. Imagine a double header saturday nights with 2 toronto teams playing back to back ? ratings goldmine

Legally, if rumours are true when Bell/Rogers both MLSE they had to a agree to non-veto status the the original MLSE believed they held (if this is true, then legally there is nothing the NHL needs to fear either marham or hamilton).

Seattle and Markham, Seattle due to geography. Markham due to expansion fee monies. Quebec will get a relocated team.

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:02 PM
  #79
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keep dreaming Markham never gonna happen

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:13 PM
  #80
MarkhamNHL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
A 2nd NHL. team in Toronto will never happen just like the NFL. will never happen for Toronto because of the over all costs & the lack of interest from both the NHL. & NFL.

NHL.
arena - $400 million
team - $400 million
pay off MLSE. - $ 200 million +

= $1 billion
Do you really think Rousten & his so called investors will be willing to shell out an extra 600 million dollars to get an NHL. team to play in this so called arena because that's how much it will cost maybe even more . besides MLSE. will pull out all the stops to make sure it dose not happen if that means letting Hamilton have an NHL. team & waiving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no money they will do it .

NFL.
Stadium - $ 1 billion +
team - $500 million +

= $ 2 billion
not a problem. It's not like 1 entity is responsible for everything financially.
the NFL stadium and the Owner will be separate entities
NFL teams cannot be owned by corporations. Edward Rogers family is worth over 6 Billion plus i'm sure as rumours are someone like Bon Jovi wants to be a major investor too. MLSE can build/operate the stadium. and of course i'm sure some public funds will go to the stadium and tie it to an olympic bid. until Wilson kicks the bucket, we'll never know what's going on behind the scenes

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:15 PM
  #81
MarkhamNHL
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Originally Posted by Darlotto99 View Post
keep dreaming Markham never gonna happen
you keep telling yourself that... at least you will have yourself convinced

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:16 PM
  #82
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There is still the problem that the CBA looks to the average revenues, not the median, and inserting a high-revenue team such as Toronto2 would create a lot of problems for the rest of the league. The league should really add more middle revenue teams before it starts to add at the top end.

I would prefer Hamilton get the team over Markham, because they are more autonomous. Although Markham can use the entire GTA for its customer base, Markham itself doesn't have very favorable demographics, and the arena itself is a little bit out of the way. However if Markham stays as a west team, that would be a big plus, but I think you should just name the team after Toronto.

This isn't game over for Hamilton though. Building the new stadium is going to take a few years, and Copps Coliseum could (and should) renovate in that time. If they don't, then the new arena is going to take away some of their business... and well... Copps is due for a renovation. While Hamilton would have to pay fees to both Toronto and Buffalo, the fee they pay to Toronto would be far less than what Markham would have to pay. In fact, Toronto may waive the fee entirely if a team in Hamilton would prevent a team in Markham (although its getting a little late for this scenario because the arena looks like its getting built). There has been no talk of a Copps Coliseum renovation since Basile tried to buy the team off of Phoenix though.

Of course, I prefer Quebec City over Hamilton or Markham at the moment, they are the furthest ahead, and they once had a successful NHL team. But it is easier to put Hamilton or Toronto2 in the west than it is to put Quebec City or another team in the west.

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:27 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Few questions

-If your MLSE, do you prefer Markham over Hamilton or vice-versa?

-What's easier to handle from the NHL's viewpoint in terms of legal challenges, Hamilton or Markham

-Woud Buffalo survive with a Hamilton team?

-So who wins the next wave of expansion if realistically, its between Seattle, Markham, or Quebec?
Seattle has to be one of them due to the requirement of having a team before arena is built so its Markham vs Quebec for the other spot.

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:30 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
A 2nd NHL. team in Toronto will never happen just like the NFL. will never happen for Toronto because of the over all costs & the lack of interest from both the NHL. & NFL.

NHL.
arena - $400 million
team - $400 million
pay off MLSE. - $ 200 million +

= $1 billion
Do you really think Rousten & his so called investors will be willing to shell out an extra 600 million dollars to get an NHL. team to play in this so called arena because that's how much it will cost maybe even more . besides MLSE. will pull out all the stops to make sure it dose not happen if that means letting Hamilton have an NHL. team & waiving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no money they will do it .

NFL.
Stadium - $ 1 billion +
team - $500 million +

= $ 2 billion
A team in Hamilton would pay more in expansion fees than a team in Markham because a Hamilton team would have to pay both Buffalo and Toronto. Both teams would have to pay Toronto the same amount because they are both in Toronto's area.

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:30 PM
  #85
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Also, happy to see a team in Markham is coming closer to fruition. Right in my backyard here in northern Scarborough

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:32 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
A 2nd NHL. team in Toronto will never happen just like the NFL. will never happen for Toronto because of the over all costs & the lack of interest from both the NHL. & NFL.

NHL.
arena - $400 million
team - $400 million
pay off MLSE. - $ 200 million +

= $1 billion
Do you really think Rousten & his so called investors will be willing to shell out an extra 600 million dollars to get an NHL. team to play in this so called arena because that's how much it will cost maybe even more . besides MLSE. will pull out all the stops to make sure it dose not happen if that means letting Hamilton have an NHL. team & waiving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no money they will do it .

NFL.
Stadium - $ 1 billion +
team - $500 million +

= $ 2 billion
I highly doubt another NHL team in the GTA will every come to fruition, but you really think MLSE, who is rumoured to be interested in bringing the NFL to Toronto, cant shell out 2 billion dollars to make it happen? Just think of how much Rogers themselves have shelled out for other sport franchises in recent history

160 million for the Blue Jays
25 million for the Sky Dome
1.07 billion for MLSE (Raptors, Maple Leafs, Marlies, TFC)
5.2 billion for NHL National broadcasting rights
However much for the sponsorship deal with Vancouver

You really cant see them dishing out 2 billion to bring an NFL team to Toronto considering they spent ~6.5 billion in the last 6 years in sports alone? Money wouldnt stop them from bringing an NFL team here.

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:34 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
you keep telling yourself that... at least you will have yourself convinced
lol NHL is not the CHL or the OHL doesn't need Markham. 1.5 billion anyone

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:34 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Finnish your Czech View Post
A team in Hamilton would pay more in expansion fees than a team in Markham because a Hamilton team would have to pay both Buffalo and Toronto. Both teams would have to pay Toronto the same amount because they are both in Toronto's area.
Ya but still it could be a wash. Hamilton wouldnt have to pay the same indemnification to Toronto that Markham surely would, however, they would have to pay Buffalo something so in total, the sum could be the same as what Markham might be looking at with MLSE alone.

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:37 PM
  #89
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in the end it's not about what's fair. it's about business.

if you are a US owner, is it easier to sell tickets to a TO2 or to Hamilton ?

if you are an owner, which team will give you more $$$ for expansion ?

if you are in the NHLPA (which would probably not like to impact a Buffalo team) which team would you rather see happen ?

if you are Rogers/Bell, and just recently plunked down 2 billion for 70% stake in MLSE, which team gives you more money to offset that cost ?

if you are Rogers, (the Canadian rights holder for content), which team will give you better ratings / advertising dollars ?

No matter the cost of expansion for TO2, there will be multiple bidders for it. Roustan and Bratty are not idiots, the NHL denies everything, but lets not forget even one of the top NHLPA's Paul Kelly let the cat out of the bag regarding expansion interests.

Why did Winnipeg get it's team back ? they had a ready arena and a willing ownership group that played the NHL game of secret dealings.

it's not rocket science, it's business, and all they care about is revenue...

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Old
11-30-2013, 01:41 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Finnish your Czech View Post
A team in Hamilton would pay more in expansion fees than a team in Markham because a Hamilton team would have to pay both Buffalo and Toronto. Both teams would have to pay Toronto the same amount because they are both in Toronto's area.
you are confusing expansion fee with indemnification. an expansion fee is paid to the league. indemnification is paid to the nearby franchises said to be hurt by the newly placed team.

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11-30-2013, 01:47 PM
  #91
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Ya but still it could be a wash. Hamilton wouldnt have to pay the same indemnification to Toronto that Markham surely would, however, they would have to pay Buffalo something so in total, the sum could be the same as what Markham might be looking at with MLSE alone.
markham total would be significantly higher. no way mlse is going to allow a competing team to anchor a competing arena without demanding a great deal of money.

the markham motorolas wouldnt hurt mlse, but the motoroladome would ... a great deal.

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11-30-2013, 01:55 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
markham total would be significantly higher. no way mlse is going to allow a competing team to anchor a competing arena without demanding a great deal of money.

the markham motorolas wouldnt hurt mlse, but the motoroladome would ... a great deal.
MLSE can't do much about the new arena, they have no way to stop that if Markham goes ahead with it.

let's not also forget, since people on here like to take Bettmans at his word for some reason, the NHL has long denied Toronto has any veto over a team in it's area. (this was when OTPP owned MLSE).


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11-30-2013, 02:04 PM
  #93
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I can't believe people are still mentioning Hamilton.

Forget about it, that ship sailed many years ago. Copps Coliseum is now 30 years old and with Markham building an arena why in the heck would the NHL even consider putting a team there.

Hamilton should officially be crossed off any expansion/relocation list.
Wait a minute. When you think about it, this means it's time for a replacement arena in Hamilton.

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11-30-2013, 02:09 PM
  #94
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The thing is Hamilton NHL. team will have to pay Buffalo very little in territory fees because technically Hamilton is will outside the Sabres territory & the Sabres do not market themselves to the Hamilton market so I would say Hamilton would have to pay Buffalo maybe a quarter of what Markham has to pay MLSE. maybe less as MLSE. & Hamilton I think they would be more than willing to waive there territory rights to Hamilton for next to nothing to keep Markham out of the NHL.

If you look at this from a business point of view Hamilton has huge advantage of Markham namely all the investment & construction that is going on right now & shows no signs of slowing down why do think Global Spectrum \ Live Nation wanted in Hamilton's entertainment venues because Hamilton is a booming market & they want bring an NHL. team to Hamilton in the next 5 years & would not be surprised if they try to get the contract to run Tim Hortons field .

Also I predict within the next 10 - 15 years Hamilton's population will reach the 1 million mark do to all this economic growth .

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11-30-2013, 02:25 PM
  #95
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I thin a team in Hamilton would draw a lot of fan support from not just Hamilton, but Burlington, Oakville, Milton, Guelph, Cambridge, Kitchener, Waterloo, Brantford, St.Catharines, Niagara Falls, maybe even as far as London. Markham is too close and too easily identifiable with Toronto. It would be harder to get people's affections away from the Leafs I think.

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11-30-2013, 02:28 PM
  #96
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How much revenue can a second GTA team bring in before they start to split revenues with the MLSE?

I think that will be the deciding factor for the NHL.

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11-30-2013, 02:38 PM
  #97
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I thin a team in Hamilton would draw a lot of fan support from not just Hamilton, but Burlington, Oakville, Milton, Guelph, Cambridge, Kitchener, Waterloo, Brantford, St.Catharines, Niagara Falls, maybe even as far as London. Markham is too close and too easily identifiable with Toronto. It would be harder to get people's affections away from the Leafs I think.
Ya, and I really dont think its even debatable. Hamilton is without a doubt a superior location, has its own identity, despite the calls for a new building Copps lots of life in it, in fact never even properly live in for goodness sakes. Was never completed. Its essentially a shell. They didnt bother to finish it when it became apparent the NHL had no intention of awarding them a franchise. So to me if its "one or the other, Markham or Hamilton" pretty much an open & shut case. Hamilton all the way. But if Markham wants to just go ahead & build, go for it. Be all out war with MLSE in booking any major acts, consumer or trade shows, and theres only so many "Tastes of Asia" food & home shows you can stage in Markham; 70's/80's Reunion Tours with Max Webster, Rough Trade & Haircut 100. But good luck with that.

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11-30-2013, 02:51 PM
  #98
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I don't see why another team in the GTA should necessarily hurt Hamilton's chances.

Look at NYC; you have one team in Manhattan, one (soon to be in) Brooklyn, and one team in Newark, NJ.

In some ways, Hamilton is to Toronto what Newark is to NYC. Except that the distance between Hamilton and Toronto is significantly greater. And Hamilton is much more populated than Newark.

I would hope for a second team in Toronto and a team in Hamilton. I'd like to see the second team in Toronto play in the ACC though... oh well, we'll see how things turn out.

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11-30-2013, 02:57 PM
  #99
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I think it's a good investment, NHL team or not.

With the Raptors and Leafs playing out of the AC Center, and the size of Toronto, having a second Arena for other shows and sport events (MMA, Boxing, OHL, etc...) is a pretty safe investment, just like the new Colisée in Québec City since the Old Colisée will soon be a pile of ruins.

However, if they think they'll be a lock for an NHL team with it, they better think again!

I am quite certain the Maple Leafs, Senators, and maybe even also the Sabres will fight to the death against it.

Also, with two other serious NHL hockey willing destinations around (The Pacific Northwest and Québec, especially since Québec's arena will soon be operational and Portland has an arena if the Seattle project fails.) I dont think there's any reason to really hurt some NHL teams in the coming expansion and go to Markham.

HOWEVER, if the Coyotes fail when their five years grace period is over, and the NHL has expanded in the meantime, then I believe they might have a shot if there is nobody else willing to take the team and they are ready to pay a HUGE amount in compensation to the teams around.

Of course that's just my biaised opinion, but I really don't see the NHL screwing either the Pacific Northwest or Québec out of an expansion team and BADLY devalue their Number One franchise the Leafs!

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11-30-2013, 03:33 PM
  #100
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Another announcement, meanwhile in Quebec city...

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