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Why always so many Gretzky bashers?

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Old
07-28-2005, 03:56 PM
  #51
Tao Jones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
Clutching, grabbing and ballooning the size of goalie equipment is "solving" the great ones? They should be applauded for being not as good and taking shortcuts to even the odds?

I'll applaude you though because that's a new one. Wayne wasn't a team player...

Since when did not scoring points automatically become clear cut evidence that you don't give a damn about individual accomplishments.

Better yet, since when did scoring points automatically mean you don't care about your team?

You build your team of Ken Daneykos though. Have fun trying to win in a beer league.

Finally, isn't it the referee's job to call the game, not Wayne's? This isn't call your own fouls streetball.
So, you start your rebuttal saying the refs don't call the game the way Mario wants it called and end it saying they shouldn't call a blatant high cross-check from behind that determines who advances to the Stanley Cup Finals.

I never said Wayne was not a team player, however his accomplishments will always be associated MORE with INDIVDUAL than TEAM efforts. Putting together an all-star team of high paid individuals based on the formula of the '80s Oilers dynasties a la NYR, cost everyone a year plus of the NHL.

A team full of Wayne Gretzkys would fare no better in a beer league, they would all be injured. But that's not my point, my point is you need other ingredients besides goalscorers to win a championship. Tell me how many Cups Wayne won after Edmonton gave him the boot? I never said Wayne didn't care about his team. I'm sure the Blues will remember him for everything he left out on the ice.

How many other NHL players would be allowed to publicly make a derogatory comment about an NHL franchise without penalty?

If you think the increase in level of skill and coaching of defense and goaltending since the early '90s, has played no part in solving the "Great Ones", then I will leave you to delusions that clutching and grabbing and increasing equipment size are the sole reasons Wayne and Mario saw little Cup success after their respective peaks.

Finally, as far as ballooning goalie equipment goes, I can only say that Brodeur has not had to reduce the size of his equipment(how about Hrudey?). Too bad everyone wants to confine Marty's right to play or advance the puck for assists and goals(who's jealous now? don't worry, I doubt if Brodeur challenges any of Wayne's offensive numbers in this incarnation) to inside of Wayne's Office. Gee, the league moved the nets away from the boards to accomodate Gretzky's style, now they are moving them back to restrict and limit Brodeur's natural skills and talents. Wonder if they'll move them back for Crosby and not allow tenders to cross their own goal line next?

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07-28-2005, 06:29 PM
  #52
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[QUOTE]""""""""""""""""""""So, you start your rebuttal saying the refs don't call the game the way Mario wants it called and end it saying they shouldn't call a blatant high cross-check from behind that determines who advances to the Stanley Cup Finals.[QUOTE]

THe subjects are entirely different. The refs don't call the game the way it should be called. The hooking, holding, interferance and slashing etc. that goes on every play basically ruining any chance for teams to play an offensive style has to end. Just because your team has been taking advantage of these no-calls for a decade doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to sdmit that something needs to be done about that stuff.

The Gilmour incident is one blown call. It has no correlation in terms of my overall point. You are the one who criticized Wayne for not calling the penalty on himself.

"Don, you didn't see that?" "Wayne, what are you talking about?" "I high sticked Dougy, he's bleeding. I need to be in the box." "Sorry Wayne, I missed that one..." "Don;t worry Don, I've always been determined to be the only guy in NHL history who calls penalties on himself...."

Quote:
I never said Wayne was not a team player, however his accomplishments will always be associated MORE with INDIVDUAL than TEAM efforts. Putting together an all-star team of high paid individuals based on the formula of the '80s Oilers dynasties a la NYR, cost everyone a year plus of the NHL.
So, you dislike Wayne because fans talk more aobut his individual accomplishments than his team accomplishments? OK...

So, shrewd drafting by the Oilers caused the lockout? OK...

Quote:
A team full of Wayne Gretzkys would fare no better in a beer league, they would all be injured. But that's not my point, my point is you need other ingredients besides goalscorers to win a championship. Tell me how many Cups Wayne won after Edmonton gave him the boot? I never said Wayne didn't care about his team. I'm sure the Blues will remember him for everything he left out on the ice.
Right. You do need other ingredients. Wayne was a major ingredient though, there's no denying that.

Quote:
How many other NHL players would be allowed to publicly make a derogatory comment about an NHL franchise without penalty?
It's called freedom of speech. He can say what he wants. Plenty of people get bashed publicly anyway. Nobody gets fined.

You're just mad because he made fun of your favorite team.

Quote:
If you think the increase in level of skill and coaching of defense and goaltending since the early '90s, has played no part in solving the "Great Ones", then I will leave you to delusions that clutching and grabbing and increasing equipment size are the sole reasons Wayne and Mario saw little Cup success after their respective peaks.
Or maybe it was their age. Oh yeah that and the fact that one of them got cheapshotted basically ruinging his back for the last 8 years of his career and the other got cancer.... THey would dominate today's NHL like they did before though, make no mistake about it. Especially with more teams and a larger dispersing of talent.

Quote:
Finally, as far as ballooning goalie equipment goes, I can only say that Brodeur has not had to reduce the size of his equipment(how about Hrudey?). Too bad everyone wants to confine Marty's right to play or advance the puck for assists and goals(who's jealous now? don't worry, I doubt if Brodeur challenges any of Wayne's offensive numbers in this incarnation) to inside of Wayne's Office. Gee, the league moved the nets away from the boards to accomodate Gretzky's style, now they are moving them back to restrict and limit Brodeur's natural skills and talents. Wonder if they'll move them back for Crosby and not allow tenders to cross their own goal line next?
Brodeur? Why do I care about him? How was he injected into this discussion. He wouldn't dwindle Wayne's offensive numbers, that's for sure.

They're changing things so teams like New Jersey can't ruin this game with cheap tactics. You aren't allowed to zone in the NBA for a reason and you shouldnt allowed to trap in hockey.

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07-28-2005, 07:39 PM
  #53
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I was merely responding to the question in the thread title.You brought up the equipment size issue and now NJD's use of cheap tactics. I pointed out that Brodeur chose not to imitate his peers like Snow and Smythe winner Giguere, with excessive pads. If you want to dispute my points, you are welcome. If you don't think Sather spending ridiculous amounts of money to re-build the Edmonton model, Manhattan-style, didn't contribute to the lock-out, then go ahead and remain in fantasy land. I never criticized Wayne, I criticized the exceptions made for him and elite players when it comes to officiating and rule changes and public inflammatory comments. How can you single out New Jersey for using cheap tactics, when every other team in the league employs the same? Do you honestly believe that in today's NHL, someone like a Thornton or a Roenick would not be reprimanded for calling say a Carolina or a Florida, a "bush/beer league organization" in front of a microphone? Fall back on the injury/cancer card if you must, they are a part of the NHL and life. I'll give you the illegal defense in exchange for making it illegal for players like Mario to camp on his opponents' blueline.


Last edited by Tao Jones: 07-28-2005 at 07:55 PM.
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07-28-2005, 08:15 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Jones
Putting together an all-star team of high paid individuals based on the formula of the '80s Oilers dynasties a la NYR, cost everyone a year plus of the NHL.
The '05 lockout was the fault of the '80s Oilers? How do you justify that?

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07-28-2005, 08:40 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hootchie Cootchie
The '05 lockout was the fault of the '80s Oilers? How do you justify that?
No.

I don't.

It's the fault of exorbitant spending on elite stars by big market teams in pursuit of buying a Cup. It's not Edmonton's fault, they are just the template that Sather, Messier, and Gretzky in '97, etc., tried to reproduce with $$$. Edmonton has been feeling small-market blues as a result of it's alumni's fruitless spending habits.

I would blame Philadelphia, Colorado, or Detroit, just the same, if they attempted to run up a $70-80k payroll via free agency, pre-2004 with a #1 goaltender, elite defense core, and a only couple of top 20 forwards with mainly grinders post-1995.

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07-28-2005, 08:45 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by JCD
I didn't count Vezina's because only goalies are eligible. This was about the best player independant of position played. Wayne was selected as the league's best more than any other player in NHL history. By a wide margin.
Yes but its not fair. When you're a goalie you have much less chance to win a hart trophy or pearson then if you're a forward. You know you can't deny that fact.

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07-28-2005, 08:48 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Jones
Players like Wayne, Mario, and Sidney are the aberrations of hockey, not the norm.
Want to know my pet peeve?

When folks catagorize 18 y/o phenoms who have yet to skate shift in the NHL with the likes of proven all-time greats.

Nothing personal, but it's positively ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
Also, do not overlook the fact that Mario had a great supporting cast too. He played a few years where the cupboard was bare but so did Wayne...
This is another thing I've never understood. Does the fact a player played with great teammates "diminish" his own achievements in any way? It's a common lament on these boards (and again nothing personal), but that flawed line of rationale (implied or otherwise) suggests that the only truly GREAT players are those who accumulate wonderful individual honors and numbers while playing on LOSING teams with lousy line/teammates!

Great players make their teams better, not just the other way around.


Last edited by Trottier: 07-28-2005 at 08:55 PM.
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07-28-2005, 08:56 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Want to know my pet peeve?

People who catagorize 18 y/o phenoms who have yet to skate shift in the NHL with the likes of proven all-time greats.

Nothing personal, but it's positively ridiculous.
My bad, but Crosby's current stats are an aberration, and are categorizable with the junior stats of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Welcome to the enlarged net era Sid.

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07-28-2005, 09:01 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Jones
My bad, but Crosby's current stats are an aberration, and are categorizable with the junior stats of Gretzky and Lemieux.
And admittedly, I tend to be NHL-focused.

Don't get me wrong. I hope Sid earns the right to be mentioned in the same sentence someday. As NHL fans, we'll all benefit.

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07-28-2005, 09:10 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Jones
I was merely responding to the question in the thread title.You brought up the equipment size issue and now NJD's use of cheap tactics. I pointed out that Brodeur chose not to imitate his peers like Snow and Smythe winner Giguere, with excessive pads. If you want to dispute my points, you are welcome. If you don't think Sather spending ridiculous amounts of money to re-build the Edmonton model, Manhattan-style, didn't contribute to the lock-out, then go ahead and remain in fantasy land. I never criticized Wayne, I criticized the exceptions made for him and elite players when it comes to officiating and rule changes and public inflammatory comments. How can you single out New Jersey for using cheap tactics, when every other team in the league employs the same? Do you honestly believe that in today's NHL, someone like a Thornton or a Roenick would not be reprimanded for calling say a Carolina or a Florida, a "bush/beer league organization" in front of a microphone? Fall back on the injury/cancer card if you must, they are a part of the NHL and life. I'll give you the illegal defense in exchange for making it illegal for players like Mario to camp on his opponents' blueline.
I only brought up these issues because you seem to believe that Mario and Wayne were solved and these issues had nothing to do with the fact that they didn't produce.

Whether or nto Sather tried to rebuild the Edmonton model or not in no way makes the Oilers of the 80s responsible for the lockout.

You know, I wish all teams, not just New Jersey would do away with these cheap tactics.

As for inflammatory comments, they are made everyday. Players get insulted, coaches get insulted, teams get insulted etc. They're all big boys. They can handle it. New Jersey should be able to handle it too.

I'll agree that injuries are indeed a part of NHL life, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored when discussing a players sudden decline in production.

Camp the other teams blueline? Not really. Both Mario and Wayne played center and if they camped anything it was their own high slot area.

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07-28-2005, 09:11 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
This is another thing I've never understood. Does the fact a player played with great teammates "diminish" his own achievements in any way? It's a common lament on these boards (and again nothing personal), but that flawed line of rationale (implied or otherwise) suggests that the only truly GREAT players are those who accumulate wonderful individual honors and numbers while playing on LOSING teams with lousy line/teammates!

Great players make their teams better, not just the other way around.
I agree. Fact is though it's commonly used on these boards by Lemieux supporters to put him over Wayne or even to just put either of them down...

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07-28-2005, 09:16 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
And admittedly, I tend to be NHL-focused.

Don't get me wrong. I hope Sid earns the right to be mentioned in the same sentence someday. As NHL fans, we'll all benefit.
Me too, I just wish the Bernie Parents, Billy Smiths,and Patrick Roys weren't becoming members of the small net era. Anyone who challenges Gretzky, etc. in the record book will forever be separated by the rule changes.

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07-28-2005, 09:20 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yes but its not fair. When you're a goalie you have much less chance to win a hart trophy or pearson then if you're a forward. You know you can't deny that fact.
I'd say a goalie has a better chance at the hart/pearson than any forward or defenceman had at nabbing one of those Vezinas from Hasek..

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07-28-2005, 10:49 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
I'd say a goalie has a better chance at the hart/pearson than any forward or defenceman had at nabbing one of those Vezinas from Hasek..
Then I wonder why only 5 or 6 goalies have won the Hart and even less have won the pearson yet forwards win it ever year. Well of course no defenseman or vezina could take a Vezina trophy but that shouldn't punish the goalies as it is the award for the best goalie in the league. Scoring is just as important as not letting the other team score which is what a goalie those. So it should go both ways.

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07-29-2005, 01:21 AM
  #65
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You know, I'm curious..

Why do you consider the big time stats of all guys who set themselves apart from the competition and score a ton of points an abberation?

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07-29-2005, 01:27 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Jones
Me too, I just wish the Bernie Parents, Billy Smiths,and Patrick Roys weren't becoming members of the small net era. Anyone who challenges Gretzky, etc. in the record book will forever be separated by the rule changes.
I thought they weren't bringing in big nets?

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07-29-2005, 04:45 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by kruezer
I thought they weren't bringing in big nets?
They arent.

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07-29-2005, 10:37 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
You know, I'm curious..

Why do you consider the big time stats of all guys who set themselves apart from the competition and score a ton of points an abberation?
Because by definition aberration(I spelled it wrong) means abnormal, slip, or lunacy. Guys who separate themselves from the norm, are not normal. Not saying abnormal or aberration = bad. But you have to admit their stats are insane. Just don't try to tell me that these phenoms have elevated the game of hockey to a point that the style of play that existed before them is killing the sport.

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07-29-2005, 10:40 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by 12# Peter Bondra
They arent.
Thanks, I was misinformed. Still, welcome to the no redline NHL.

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07-29-2005, 12:25 PM
  #70
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To answer the first question of the thread, I'll give my opinion :
I respect Gretzky, the hockey player tremendously. Make no mistake, I admire the player.
However, I didn't like the Edmonton ending, I didn't like the LA ending, I didn't like the Blues ending, and I simply don't like the personality of Gretzky.
He wants to be a soft spoken guy, he wants to sound humble, but he's not.
I'd rather hear a guy that doesn't try to be humble when he is not (Hull, Mario). Gretzky is trying to get a nice image too much and that makes him look untrue.
Like how he explains why he chose his number, the way he talks about his career, etc...

Gretzky simply doesn't seem natural when he talks to the media.

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07-29-2005, 12:41 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Jones
Because by definition aberration(I spelled it wrong) means abnormal, slip, or lunacy. Guys who separate themselves from the norm, are not normal. Not saying abnormal or aberration = bad. But you have to admit their stats are insane. Just don't try to tell me that these phenoms have elevated the game of hockey to a point that the style of play that existed before them is killing the sport.
I think it's those guys who make hockey great.

I guess though I've been a Gretzky fan since I was a little kid and I've played hockey like Wayne since I started despite my size. I just enjoy watching and playing an extremely offensive style so these types of players are godsends to me.

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07-29-2005, 01:14 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
I think it's those guys who make hockey great.

I guess though I've been a Gretzky fan since I was a little kid and I've played hockey like Wayne since I started despite my size. I just enjoy watching and playing an extremely offensive style so these types of players are godsends to me.
Understandable. I was Bernie Parent fan, when I was a little kid. My brother was/is a Mario fan when he was/is a little kid. His father, my stepfather is a NYR fan. I am now a NJ(hey, finally a team that plays in our state and uses our name)/Lou fan since '82. Took a break from the NHL after Pelle Lindbergh, and Keenan's coaching run on Broad St.

We love Gionta(and Parise) in NJ(yeah, I know I live in AZ now, but I still love those guys being in NJ).

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07-29-2005, 02:59 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Jones
Me too, I just wish the Bernie Parents, Billy Smiths,and Patrick Roys weren't becoming members of the small net era. Anyone who challenges Gretzky, etc. in the record book will forever be separated by the rule changes.
But that's always happened. You can't really compare the gigantic goalies of today to the small equipment goalies like Parent, Smith, Dryden or Sawchuk. Or the 30 team charter aircraft 82 game league to the 6 team train travel 50 game league, etc.

Hockey is a game in constant flux, has *always* been that way. In the 40's, guys were complaining that you couldn't compare Rocket Richard to Howie Morenz, because the rules were different.

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07-29-2005, 03:42 PM
  #74
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I just have never been a fan of him at all.. can't really explain it.

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07-30-2005, 03:10 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
This is something that has irked me for a long long time. Why do so many people dislike Gretzky? Yeah the majority of us love him,, and even others will respect him but where do people get off bashing him? Are you Flames fans? Or Isles fans? If so the Isles won four straight Cups so dont cry. Or better yet are you Russian?

Gretzky had more assists than anyone had points in four seasons in his career. He led the league in assists for 13 straight years. And then three more after that. And if the 80s was so easy to score a dumpload of points than why did Gretzky routinely crack 200 and no one had more than Bossy's 147 until Mario in 1988. Why didnt Stastny, or Savard or Trottier, Dionne or Hawerchuk ever get even 150 if it was so easy. No disrespect to any of those guys, the are all legit HOFers but it just shows that Wayne in his prime was so much better than the competition.

He won four Cups played in 6 finals, and own three Canada Cups. He led the Canada Cup tourny's in scoring in '81, '84 '87 and '91. He also led Canada in scoring in '96 at age 35. He also is a pretty good executive in leading Canada back to the gold in '02 and '04. He led the league in assists when he was 37, and that same year was Second team all-star behind an in his Prime Forsberg.

Was it because he never fought? Well neither did Lafleur. Bossy ran rather than fought. Is it because he couldnt play defense? He may not have hit but he wasnt really that bad positionally. Is it because a guy like Orr was more well rounded and did everything right? Or is it just jealousy? I put Gretzky and Orr and the best ever and I never argue with anyone who says one is better than the other. But explain to me why do you hate Gretzky?
Actually, it is jealousy.

Wayne Gretzky has lived the perfect life. Virtually every male child in Canada wanted to be the world's greatest hockey player when they grew up. Gretzky lived the dream that all of us had. For some of us, we enjoyed watching someone else live the dream, for bashers, it pissed them off that they could not live the dream. They were jealous of Gretzky and as a result bashed the man every chance they got.

The other jealousy was that Gretzky did not play for their favorite team. The greatest player of all time, ripping up the league, rewriting the record books, winning Cups and living the perfect life - well, if he isn't on my team, screw him! That jealousy opens up a new wave of Gretzky bashing. People found it unbearable to have Gretzky light up their favorite team for 5 or 6 points in a blow out.

It is all jealousy. There really is no other reason to dislike the guy.

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