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NY Rangers GM Glen Sather's 'personnel' doesn't fit with Alain Vigneault's style

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Old
12-14-2013, 05:58 AM
  #1
RangerBoy
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NY Rangers GM Glen Sather's 'personnel' doesn't fit with Alain Vigneault's style

Finally someone has the balls to criticize the Emperor. Stop coaching Pat Leonard wrote this for Friday's New York Daily News.

Quote:
The Rangers are caught in between two styles of play and in between two coaches, but it feels less like a transition than an identity crisis. The constant through it all is Sather, and though the organization does its best to insulate the GM from outside questions and criticism, the blame lies at his feet, and the onus is on him to fix it. The blame also lies, therefore, with Garden chairman James Dolan, who has maintained that Sather has a job for life.
Slats is the one common denominator.

Quote:
Vigneault and the players, including a subpar Lundqvist, should be held accountable, too, but Sather’s fingerprints also are on his goaltender’s recent swoon. He didn’t tie up a contract extension that should have been done months earlier, allowing the off-ice distraction to linger until consecutive starts by Cam Talbot made the contract a major topic of conversation and, magically, Lundqvist’s deal was done almost immediately.

Evidence has been gathered on the Rangers’ issues. There is no more time needed to identify the root of the problem. The coach calls it “personnel.” The fans know that “personnel” is determined by the general manager. Whether Sather speaks publicly once a month or every day, his product is speaking at plenty high volume on the ice.
The Lundqvist contract should have been done by the start of training camp. The Rangers were stuck on giving more than six years. Talbot plays against Winnipeg on a Monday night. That day Lundqvist spent 20 minutes answering questions about his play and the contract. On Tuesday night,the Rangers brass and Lundqvist's agent Don Meehan had a 3 hour meeting in Manhattan. The contract was done and announced on Wednesday. Sather would still be playing games with Lundqvist if the Rangers were not concerned about the contract not hurting his play. Sather made a comment at the press conference about Lundqvist needing to carry the Rangers. He actually meant it. Literally. Go carry us Henrik.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...icle-1.1546550

The Garden already hates the Daily News because of Frank Isola. Look at what they have done with that guy. Isola gives it right back to them on a consistent basis. Pat is not getting an invite to MSG Christmas party. Those Garden people read these forums.

Time to "Embrace the suck"

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12-14-2013, 07:05 AM
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Perfect storm. Murphy front and center.

There's a small ray of hope. McDonagh and Lundqvist can be built around. Maybe Kreider and Stepan.

Lots of teams in the East suck. The Olympics will take the heat off for a few weeks, but look for a ton of changes league wide now that the cap is going up.


Callahan and Staal need to be traded before their stocks hit a new low. Injury prone and inconsistent yet considerable cap hits.

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12-14-2013, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Perfect storm. Murphy front and center.

There's a small ray of hope. McDonagh and Lundqvist can be built around. Maybe Kreider and Stepan.

Lots of teams in the East suck. The Olympics will take the heat off for a few weeks, but look for a ton of changes league wide now that the cap is going up.


Callahan and Staal need to be traded before their stocks hit a new low. Injury prone and inconsistent yet considerable cap hits.
It's hard to move guys when they're injured. I don't think anyone's jumping to deal for a concussed Marc Staal.

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12-14-2013, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
It's hard to move guys when they're injured. I don't think anyone's jumping to deal for a concussed Marc Staal.
I'm not saying trade them now. I'm thinking more around deadline time.

GMs are always stupid at least once a year. I have a feeling getting Carolina to bite on Staal and a team like St. Louis or Vancouver or Tampa to bite on Callahan wont be difficult.

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12-14-2013, 08:57 AM
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AV has no right to complain about personnel. He knew the team he was inheriting, I, for one, never thought he had a chance to run his system and anyone that thinks that he could have is either naive of lying. It always was a terrible hire. I like that he has the team shooting more, but its irrelevant because they can't score. They bet the house on Nash and lost.

Sather I am no fan of either. He is a dinosaur, and I don't think he is pragmatic enough to build a team that can consistently contend in the modern era, particularly within the constraints of a salary cap.

I have been extremely pessimistic since last year's trade deadline, and with Sather being unwilling to blow it up, combines with his lifetime contract and Dolan's apathy there light at the end of the tunnel is dim at best.

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12-14-2013, 09:11 AM
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Something was going to have to give. The Rangers were not a particularly good offensive team. Implementing a system like in Vancouver takes the right kind of personnel. Rangers didn't have the Sedin twins nor did they have the one-two center punch of Henrik Sedin--Ryan Kesler nor did they have a big booming shot from the point.

I like Rick Nash as I liked Marian Gaborik but these guys did not come from winning environments. Rangers have been retooling since the Nash trade--at the expense of the lunch pail types that typified the team when Torts had complete control.

The Rangers have some talented young players at the NHL level and a handful at the AHL level--McIlrath, Miller, Allen, Kristo, Lindberg and Fast and hardly any anywhere else--let's just say Skjei, Nieves maybe Buchnevich and the rest are at best maybes. There's a who knows factor with a lot of the above mentioned as well--so IMO it's becoming more and more evident that we are not in a good place at all. One thing though we're going to have room to sign college and CHL free agents and if we can find the better ones that might mitigate some of this problem.

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12-14-2013, 09:51 AM
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Just words.

I don't see this changing anything.

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12-14-2013, 10:32 AM
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So, James Dolan...chairman and owner of the Rangers, man yourself up and fire Sather!

But who should we hire?

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12-14-2013, 10:32 AM
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90% of the players on the Rangers were here PRIOR to AV.

it's the summer coming up that will determine I Sather can get AV the type of players he needs.

to link the players the Rangers have not being AV type players and pin that on Sather is a bit agenda driven

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12-14-2013, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
So, James Dolan...chairman and owner of the Rangers, man yourself up and fire Sather!

But who should we hire?
anything Dolan is involved with is turned to crap.. he needs to go also

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12-14-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
So, James Dolan...chairman and owner of the Rangers, man yourself up and fire Sather!

But who should we hire?
Who should we hire isn't even a conversation. When Sather goes, Gorton will step in. It's pretty obvious. Whether or not that is a good thing remains to be seen.

Also, stop GM'ing, Pat

This is great though. A really great article. One of the best out of the Rangers beat in a LONG time. Finally, someone isn't afraid to truly figure out where the problem lies. I wish he went further into it, though.

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12-14-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savant View Post
AV has no right to complain about personnel. He knew the team he was inheriting, I, for one, never thought he had a chance to run his system and anyone that thinks that he could have is either naive of lying. It always was a terrible hire. I like that he has the team shooting more, but its irrelevant because they can't score. They bet the house on Nash and lost.

.
Sather has been and is THE problem but there is still room for AV to be a problem I have a feeling he is. That said even if he is A problem he still may be 100% correct and well within his rights to criticize. Based on what we've seen he has every reason and right to criticize the way the roster is right now. The farm is barren and the NHL team is barren of offensive talent and intelligence. We don't do any single thing well. Not scoring, not D and right now not even goaltending. The team seems to be unintelligent beyond what is normal and expected for ahockey club and they alsom seem to be pathetically mentally fragile.

If these are truly things he has walked into he SHOULD be looking to the GM and saying wtf were you doing is this a joke?

They did not bet the house on nash. They bet the house that they could get a cup with nash, gabs, Richards, Lundqvist and that D before the style of play and thier lack of abilities finally started to wear them out career-wise. Then in a twist NO ONE saw coming Gabs: a 2 time 80 + pt guy for us and Richards: a PPQB and perennial 60-90 pt guy BOTH fell off the face of the Earth simultaneously. There was NO WAY IN HELL last years team or this years team was going to amount to anything after that happened. But now that it did happen the multitude of holes left on this team have been exacerbated beyond tolerance. The fact that we filled those holes with guys like Pyatt, Poo, Clowe and the like has made it even WORSE.

Then additionally Callahan's body has finally started giving out, Girardi has worsened, Staal's play plummeted and he is injured...again. The team went for their shot and it was smart of them to do it the last two years because this was ALWAYS a roster contructed for a 2 or MAYBE 3 year window at BEST. We had a one year window in the end because of the aforementioned precipitous dropoffs of two bona fide superstar players who became nothing more than names on a lineup sheet who can't contribute.


Last edited by shinchanyo: 12-14-2013 at 11:09 AM.
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12-14-2013, 11:08 AM
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Honestly, while I wholeheartedly agree with AVs comments about the talent level on the roster, I think it is an awful move to share them with the media the way he did.

First of all, that is something that should be discussed behind closed doors coach to GM. To be fair, I would expect that conversation has already happened.

Second of all, it is just making an excuse. This roster found ways to win in the past. Telling your GM you need to make moves is one thing. Telling the media that essentially "it's not my fault" is pathetic and shows a lack of leadership. If a coach doesn't believe in his team, who else will? Instead of making excuses, suck it up (publicly) and find a way to win.

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12-14-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Honestly, while I wholeheartedly agree with AVs comments about the talent level on the roster, I think it is an awful move to share them with the media the way he did,
If nothing else, a little drama is entertaining as hell. I'm tuned in now.

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12-14-2013, 11:17 AM
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I was curious about something, and this seems as good a topic to ask it. Why is it, that when the team was excellent in 2012, Jeff Gorton got all the credit as the "day to day" GM, and now that we aren't playing to potential, all the blame once again lies on Sather, and Gorton is getting a pass. Not saying I necessarily put the blame on one over the other, but it's worth asking, as I have not seen much blame on Gorton's shoulders.

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12-14-2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by NYRSchrute217 View Post
I was curious about something, and this seems as good a topic to ask it. Why is it, that when the team was excellent in 2012, Jeff Gorton got all the credit as the "day to day" GM, and now that we aren't playing to potential, all the blame once again lies on Sather, and Gorton is getting a pass. Not saying I necessarily put the blame on one over the other, but it's worth asking, as I have not seen much blame on Gorton's shoulders.
This HF logic has been amazing to me. Sather makes a move the board likes: "Oh man, you can really see Gorton's hand in these moves. He's learning"

Team sucks: "Fire Sather! This is all Sather's fault!"

The narrative on the board works in the favor of how the fans want it to work. Flip-flopping more than a political candidate.


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12-14-2013, 11:25 AM
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If nothing else, a little drama is entertaining as hell. I'm tuned in now.
Better than the crap we've had to watch on the ice.

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12-14-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Second of all, it is just making an excuse. This roster found ways to win in the past. Telling your GM you need to make moves is one thing. Telling the media that essentially "it's not my fault" is pathetic and shows a lack of leadership. If a coach doesn't believe in his team, who else will? Instead of making excuses, suck it up (publicly) and find a way to win.
Bingo. If a coach doesn't hold himself accountable, then how can you expect the players to be held accountable?

The on ice product reflects that every single game.

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12-14-2013, 11:41 AM
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AV has never elevated a team, I don't know why people would expect him to start here.

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12-14-2013, 11:44 AM
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Bingo. If a coach doesn't hold himself accountable, then how can you expect the players to be held accountable?

The on ice product reflects that every single game.
Why? Torts always deflected blame. This comment doesn't reflect that fact

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12-14-2013, 11:47 AM
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Knowing our luck Sather will be alive well into his 90's. With a cigar still having permanent residence between his teeth.

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12-14-2013, 12:20 PM
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Gorton got credit for the 2012 team. When?

The bottom-line is Sather is the boss. The decider.

Gorton played a major role with the Bruins winning the Cup. Many of the those players were brought in by Mike O'Connell and Gorton. Thomas. Bergeron. Krejci. When Gorton was the interim-GM before Chiarelli officially became GM,he traded Raycroft for Rask. Drafted Kessel,Lucic and Marchand. Signed Chara and Savard as free agents.

Quote:
Chiarelli said the Bruins then interim GM Jeff Gorton did the deal with former Leafs GM John Ferguson, Jr. while Chiarelli was in the process of going to Boston from Ottawa.

Ferguson went to the Bruins desiring then Bís goalie Andrew Raycroft and offered up then Leafs prospect Jiri Tlusty for him. The Bruins insisted the trade be goalie-for-goalie and wanted Rask. On June 24, 2006 the deal was done: Rask for Raycroft straight up.

That sound you hear from Toronto are Leafs fans grinding their teeth over a poor trade from the old regime. To make matters worse, Raycroft was coming off his worst season with Boston and a year removed from winning the Calder Trophy as rookie of the year.
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...trade-details/

The Rangers wouldn't have Ryan McDonagh if Gorton didn't insist Sather get McDonagh from the Habs. Renaud Lavoie reported that.

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12-14-2013, 12:20 PM
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Yes AV more or less said the players suck, thats a kick behind to both the players and the GM.

I like AV, hope he's not the one who has to go.

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12-14-2013, 12:24 PM
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I think AV is starting to feel like he's been set up to fail and sees the writing on the wall. Personally im glad he said what he said. Sather and Dolan need a dose of reality, even If its only for a few days

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12-14-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
Sather has been and is THE problem but there is still room for AV to be a problem I have a feeling he is. That said even if he is A problem he still may be 100% correct and well within his rights to criticize. Based on what we've seen he has every reason and right to criticize the way the roster is right now. The farm is barren and the NHL team is barren of offensive talent and intelligence. We don't do any single thing well. Not scoring, not D and right now not even goaltending. The team seems to be unintelligent beyond what is normal and expected for ahockey club and they alsom seem to be pathetically mentally fragile.

If these are truly things he has walked into he SHOULD be looking to the GM and saying wtf were you doing is this a joke?

They did not bet the house on nash. They bet the house that they could get a cup with nash, gabs, Richards, Lundqvist and that D before the style of play and thier lack of abilities finally started to wear them out career-wise. Then in a twist NO ONE saw coming Gabs: a 2 time 80 + pt guy for us and Richards: a PPQB and perennial 60-90 pt guy BOTH fell off the face of the Earth simultaneously. There was NO WAY IN HELL last years team or this years team was going to amount to anything after that happened. But now that it did happen the multitude of holes left on this team have been exacerbated beyond tolerance. The fact that we filled those holes with guys like Pyatt, Poo, Clowe and the like has made it even WORSE.

Then additionally Callahan's body has finally started giving out, Girardi has worsened, Staal's play plummeted and he is injured...again. The team went for their shot and it was smart of them to do it the last two years because this was ALWAYS a roster contructed for a 2 or MAYBE 3 year window at BEST. We had a one year window in the end because of the aforementioned precipitous dropoffs of two bona fide superstar players who became nothing more than names on a lineup sheet who can't contribute.
I disagree. AV choose to coach the Rangers and knew what kind of roster he was getting into. He probably thought he could just let Lundqvist do everything, sit back and relax. I don't feel sorry for him at all. Maybe if he had spent a little more time with the team in preseason he could have advocated for some of his style players then, but him making comments like this in December is not only highly unprofessional, but delusional at best. I think its ironic Torts was berated for only playing one style of hockey, but AV clearly only knows one style of hockey as well. Torts knew how to win with this roster, AV is just finding out, in December he doesn't have the horses? Anyone could have noticed that that has watched the team.

AV should have walked into the job Day 1 and said to Sather these guys won't fit and give him some ideas of who to target. AV has been horribly prepared since he got here, and this is just another example. During the interview process, this MUST have come up. So either AV was blowing smoke up Sather's butt, or Sather put his foot down saying that this was the team going forward. AV did not have to take the job.

They absolutely bet the house on Nash, I don't think this is debatable because it would up costing the team Dubinsky, Anisimiov and Gaborik; integral pieces on a team that should have won the President's Cup. It took way too long to realize this mistake and it culminated in the Gaborik trade. Last season, the Rangers should have fired Torts midseason and found a coach to win with Gaborik and Nash (not that you can win the cup building around wingers), or they should have given Torts a full season with Brassard, Dorsett and Moore. I have been saying this since October.

Now you have a team with no identity headed by a coach who is the biggest misfit for the team he is coaching since Trottier, who is not cognitive of the team's culture whatsoever. Sather is very out of touch with things and this is not helping but he has seen this roster win, and he would be right to stand up for it. However this does not mean he doesn't need to be proactive.

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