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In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XLVI

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:48 AM
  #26
bohlmeister
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Because teams are going to start spotting their weaknesses and targeting them. Teams are just now getting an idea of how Roy plays, and when they dump the puck in and forecheck hard, and cycle the puck well it causes them problems. The guys that have the biggest problem with this are Holden, Sarich, and occasionally Guenin. Mainly Holden and Sarich.

Right now they're playing to their strengths just like you say, but they are also dictating how they play so that they can do that. That's slowly going to decline as teams figure out a way to occasional dictate how they want to play. If Sarich is still averaging 17:30 a game by that time it's going to be a problem. He won't be able to play to his strengths, and he'll be put in tougher spots more often, and his weaknesses will start to show.

Instead of those 2-3 sketchy moments a game, it will now be 6 or 7+, and they'll start to result in goals against.

I do agree though that he came in to camp in great shape, and that likely had a lot to do with a solid start from him. Conditioning is huge for a defenseman like him at his age.

He's a good D man in a #6/7 role, but that's the role he should be in. Right now it's not burning them because he's playing at his peak, and for the reasons I mentioned above, but he shouldn't be playing 17:30 in the NHL. He should be closer to 12-14 minutes a game. They'll be able to pick the right spots for him much better with that amount of time.
That is all well and good, and I don't disagree. But what are the "sketchy moments?" What part of his play is breaking down?

I know we need another d-man, that isn't an argument. Benoit and Sarich/Guenin should be the 3rd pairing. Problem being we need that guy to QB the PP as well as work on the PK if we are taking Guenin/Sarich out of the game. Maybe Barrie is the one that needs to be moved? If he can't QB the PP his defensive side of the game isn't going to make up for those shortcomings. I don't know what the answer is, but it will be interesting to see what moves they make.

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:57 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Can we end up with Subban somehow and not give up O'Reilly or EJ?
That one guy said it would cost the Avs half their roster. He didn't say which half though.

InjuredChoker, you would trade O'Reilly+Johnson for Subban?

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12-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
That one guy said it would cost the Avs half their roster. He didn't say which half though.

InjuredChoker, you would trade O'Reilly+Johnson for Subban?
Please no, unless they went Subban plus 2 firsts

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12-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
That one guy said it would cost the Avs half their roster. He didn't say which half though.

InjuredChoker, you would trade O'Reilly+Johnson for Subban?
one of them yes, easily but both.. probably no.

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12-02-2013, 12:07 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
one of them yes, easily but both.. probably no.
Makes sense.

I would trade O'Reilly+ for Subban. Not sure about EJ+ though. Avs barely take a step forward (in terms of overall roster improvement), while giving up more cap space plus other assets, of which could be used to bring in that other defenceman.

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12-02-2013, 12:14 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Combining all the rumours on the main board, the trade is obviously going to be:

Toronto: McGinn+, Kulikov Florida: Kulemin+ Avs: Gardiner

Somehow Montreal needs to be worked in their too.
Based on d-men available for trade and the numbers issue on the Avs blue line, I wouldn't be shocked to see Roy move McGinn for a winger. Obviously the Avs need help on D but I don't think he'll ignore other holes in the lineup.

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Old
12-02-2013, 12:16 PM
  #32
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Screw trading O'reilly I'm hoping they sign him for 8 years instead

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Old
12-02-2013, 12:26 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
not without giving duchene, landy or mack +.

i love ror and ej but i'd drive them to the airport by myself if subban is coming this way.
Subban is one of my top 3-5 players in the league, but we need a defenseman to play with EJ once Hejda starts regressing. It makes absolutely no sense to trade EJ for Subban from either team.

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12-02-2013, 12:29 PM
  #34
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Much as the possibility of landing Subban would absolutely floor me, I wouldn't like us to give up a player like O'Reilly. I don't think you EVER trade a player like that unless the player forces your hand.

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12-02-2013, 12:36 PM
  #35
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How about we just keep both ROR and Staz because screw having too many centres, ROR and MacK can play wing effectively if needed and if there was ever a time when both Staz and Dutchy are out (just like it almost happened there recently) we would still have a very good 1-2 punch down the middle with ROR and MacK.

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12-02-2013, 12:48 PM
  #36
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How about we just keep both ROR and Staz because screw having too many centres, ROR and MacK can play wing effectively if needed and if there was ever a time when both Staz and Dutchy are out (just like it almost happened there recently) we would still have a very good 1-2 punch down the middle with ROR and MacK.
I agree completely. The problem here is if Stastny wans to stick around and be the teams 3rd best centre. Even if he's used in a more important role than a 3rd liner, he may want to be a team's go to guy.

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12-02-2013, 01:00 PM
  #37
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I agree completely. The problem here is if Stastny wans to stick around and be the teams 3rd best centre. Even if he's used in a more important role than a 3rd liner, he may want to be a team's go to guy.
He's getting around 20 minutes of ice time a night so it's not like he'd be getting a ton more with another team. Also, since the team can roll out three scoring lines when fully healthy he enjoys softer minutes here than he would if he were the top line center on a team without as much depth.

I think it will come down to $$$. He has no reason to take a huge paycut when he'll command big-time money on the open market.

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12-02-2013, 01:32 PM
  #38
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I'd love to keep both too. But at some point MacKinnon is going to need 20 minutes of ice time. Roy is already getting creative not keeping him on the third line all game. To clarify I mean in the future, not this year.

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Old
12-02-2013, 01:37 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
I'd love to keep both too. But at some point MacKinnon is going to need 20 minutes of ice time. Roy is already getting creative not keeping him on the third line all game. To clarify I mean in the future, not this year.
It's too bad Winterpeg is now a division rival and there's not a ton on that roster outside of Toby Enstrom I want (they definitely wouldn't part with Trouba). That's a team that could definitely use a Paul Stastny. Their depth at center is laughable.

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12-02-2013, 01:41 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
I'd love to keep both too. But at some point MacKinnon is going to need 20 minutes of ice time. Roy is already getting creative not keeping him on the third line all game. To clarify I mean in the future, not this year.
MacKinnon will get plenty of ice time on the PP and occasional shifts on the wing with Duchy/Staz under a coach like Roy who is competent with line rotations. All three of Duchy/Staz/MacK will get ~20 minutes a game between ES/PP/PK and still have a ~8 minute 4th line.

Ice time is not a concern or a reason to get rid of a player.

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Old
12-02-2013, 01:50 PM
  #41
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MacKinnon will get plenty of ice time on the PP and occasional shifts on the wing with Duchy/Staz under a coach like Roy who is competent with line rotations. All three of Duchy/Staz/MacK will get ~20 minutes a game between ES/PP/PK and still have a ~8 minute 4th line.

Ice time is not a concern or a reason to get rid of a player.
That's true, but it's a fact that the team has a ton of depth at one position, and some pretty significant holes to fill in another. I'm not saying trading Stastny is a no-brainer, but the fact that MacKinnon will only grow in his role gives the Avs some flexibility.

I will agree though that the team needs to be careful though. They opted once to deal away some pretty significant depth at center (Drury/Yelle) in order to strengthen the defense, and the void left at 3rd line center wasn't filled until recently. During that time we saw some decent interim measures (Laperriere, Gratton, Nikolishin) and some are-you-%^&*ing-kidding-me fillers (Shantz, Arnason). I don't think it'll get to that point again, but nevertheless they gotta be careful.

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12-02-2013, 02:21 PM
  #42
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That is all well and good, and I don't disagree. But what are the "sketchy moments?" What part of his play is breaking down?

I know we need another d-man, that isn't an argument. Benoit and Sarich/Guenin should be the 3rd pairing. Problem being we need that guy to QB the PP as well as work on the PK if we are taking Guenin/Sarich out of the game. Maybe Barrie is the one that needs to be moved? If he can't QB the PP his defensive side of the game isn't going to make up for those shortcomings. I don't know what the answer is, but it will be interesting to see what moves they make.
The sketchy moments are when he loses his defensive coverage. He gets caught flat footed, or puck watching, or just in the wrong position at least a couple times a game, and it leads to some dangerous moments. It hasn't really burnt them on a GA yet, but these are signs that his play is coming back down to earth a bit, and he's playing too big a role. 17:31 average ice time is way too much for Sarich.

I've said it many times, I'm not opposed to trading Barrie. In fact I think he represents the best way to put together a package that could entice another team IMO, without creating a hole somewhere else. Obviously it has to be for a guy that can play a legit role in the top 4 and not be a rental though.

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12-02-2013, 03:25 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
That's true, but it's a fact that the team has a ton of depth at one position, and some pretty significant holes to fill in another. I'm not saying trading Stastny is a no-brainer, but the fact that MacKinnon will only grow in his role gives the Avs some flexibility.

I will agree though that the team needs to be careful though. They opted once to deal away some pretty significant depth at center (Drury/Yelle) in order to strengthen the defense, and the void left at 3rd line center wasn't filled until recently. During that time we saw some decent interim measures (Laperriere, Gratton, Nikolishin) and some are-you-%^&*ing-kidding-me fillers (Shantz, Arnason). I don't think it'll get to that point again, but nevertheless they gotta be careful.
It's that depth up the middle that makes us special. Sure even with a traditional bottom 6 our top 6 would be really good, but it's having a top 9 like ours that sets us apart, and we'd need to be getting a damn good final Dman for me to sacrifice that. Especially because it really is just one more piece that we need on d, and it's one that we might even be able to fill via fa if Montreal lets Markov get that far.

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12-02-2013, 03:37 PM
  #44
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The sketchy moments are when he loses his defensive coverage. He gets caught flat footed, or puck watching, or just in the wrong position at least a couple times a game, and it leads to some dangerous moments. It hasn't really burnt them on a GA yet, but these are signs that his play is coming back down to earth a bit, and he's playing too big a role. 17:31 average ice time is way too much for Sarich.

I've said it many times, I'm not opposed to trading Barrie. In fact I think he represents the best way to put together a package that could entice another team IMO, without creating a hole somewhere else. Obviously it has to be for a guy that can play a legit role in the top 4 and not be a rental though.
I've been warming up to that idea more lately, but obviously would prefer to keep him if we can.

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12-02-2013, 03:38 PM
  #45
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It's that depth up the middle that makes us special. Sure even with a traditional bottom 6 our top 6 would be really good, but it's having a top 9 like ours that sets us apart, and we'd need to be getting a damn good final Dman for me to sacrifice that. Especially because it really is just one more piece that we need on d, and it's one that we might even be able to fill via fa if Montreal lets Markov get that far.
How many years does Markov have left as a top 4 dman? I'm not sure his age allows him to be a core piece for the AVs. Their window is just now beginning to open...it'll probably be open for 5-10 years. I sure would like our big D UFA target to be younger than 35.

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12-02-2013, 04:26 PM
  #46
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I've been warming up to that idea more lately, but obviously would prefer to keep him if we can.
Oh god that avatar. Classic.

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12-02-2013, 05:02 PM
  #47
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Oh god that avatar. Classic.
Greatest album of all time.

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12-02-2013, 05:13 PM
  #48
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Greatest album of all time.
Definetly top 5 material.

1. Duchene
2. Blackwater Park

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12-02-2013, 05:19 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
The sketchy moments are when he loses his defensive coverage. He gets caught flat footed, or puck watching, or just in the wrong position at least a couple times a game, and it leads to some dangerous moments. It hasn't really burnt them on a GA yet, but these are signs that his play is coming back down to earth a bit, and he's playing too big a role. 17:31 average ice time is way too much for Sarich.

I've said it many times, I'm not opposed to trading Barrie. In fact I think he represents the best way to put together a package that could entice another team IMO, without creating a hole somewhere else. Obviously it has to be for a guy that can play a legit role in the top 4 and not be a rental though.
I understand the idea of trading Barrie but I think his skating ability is extremely valuable to us right now. His speed has bailed us out a couple times in the last few games and aside from Johnson he is our best skating dman.

With so much uncertainty surrounding Elliott and Barrie playing well in the NHL... I fear moving him. I guess it depends on the return though.

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12-02-2013, 05:31 PM
  #50
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How many years does Markov have left as a top 4 dman? I'm not sure his age allows him to be a core piece for the AVs. Their window is just now beginning to open...it'll probably be open for 5-10 years. I sure would like our big D UFA target to be younger than 35.
I think we need someone like hejda who can give us 3-5 more years while Bigras and Siemens develop, if in that time they're sitll not good enough we'll have that many years worth of picks and prospects to get the upgrades we'll need.

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