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Do the Flyers lead all teams in PIMs since they entered the League

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Old
12-04-2013, 03:05 PM
  #1
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Do the Flyers lead all teams in PIMs since they entered the League

Just a quick fact I'm trying to get. Since the Flyers entered league in 1967-68 have they had the most penalty minutes than any other franchise over the 1967-68 to present?

Any idea where I could find such a stat or does anyone know if that is true or not?

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12-04-2013, 03:28 PM
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This is surprisingly hard to find.

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12-04-2013, 03:32 PM
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Best to ask pnep about stuff like this.

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12-04-2013, 03:33 PM
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12-04-2013, 03:36 PM
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Buffalo actually holds the record for most in a single season at 2,173. That has to be over 25 mins per game!

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12-04-2013, 03:49 PM
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The Flyers lead since the 2008-09 season by a pretty good margin


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12-04-2013, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
This is surprisingly hard to find.
Did a quick look and this is true. It's not easy to find franchise totals of PIMs online.

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12-04-2013, 04:35 PM
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It seems like there's a lot of legwork involved in this one.

When team stats are organized, they're organized by PPA, PK, PP%, and PK%. That doesn't tell the full story of PIMs.

However, players get a PIM stat. The only way I can think to do this is go through hockey-reference.com and add all the players each year for every season back to '67. Then compare them all on one spread sheet after all that addition.

It's a very tedious endeavor.

EDIT: Maybe if we had a bunch of people volunteer to pick one of the expansion-era franchises along with an original six franchise, we could solve this problem. All that legwork for one person though is too much.

Based on the teams we're working with though (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Minnesota North Stars/Dallas Stars, St. Louis Blues, Montreal Canadiens, Toronto Maple Leafs, New York Rangers, Chicago Blackhawks, Detroit Red Wings, and Boston Bruins), I can pretty much guarantee we lead them all in PIMs since 1967. Other teams, with lesser years, would not have a chance to compete.

My best guess on the order would be...

1. Flyers
2. Rangers
3. Maple Leafs
4. Bruins
5. Penguins
6. Blues
7. Stars
8. Canadiens
9. Blackhawks
10. Red Wings
11. Kings


Last edited by CS: 12-04-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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12-04-2013, 04:42 PM
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I imagine the only way to get this is to add either every season's PIM totals or add up even the PIMs on a game-by-game basis. So you probably don't want to do that.

I imagine they do lead that though. Ever since I've been a hardcore fan they either lead the league or are at least among the league leaders in penalty minutes pretty much every season and with the BSB culture and all that I doubt they were that much better in the past.

People rarely talk about it, but minor penalties is a really big problem for this team every season and it's kind of really tiresome. That means more penalty kills which means more goals against and more uneven shift distributions. It's a relatively minor thing at least compared to the roster issues, but it's still an issue that hasn't gone away in a very long time really.

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12-04-2013, 05:04 PM
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please enlighten us.

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12-04-2013, 05:06 PM
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The work is figuring out an algorithm which you can script to gather all of the relevant information. Starting in English, perhaps something like:

1. Gather rosters for each franchise in every season since the Flyers' first.
2. Gather career stats by season for each unique player found on the list.
3. Add together all PIM totals for each franchises' roster for each season.

Of course, if you have the first two in a database already, it would be pretty simple to answer the OP.

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12-04-2013, 05:09 PM
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I am not sure about a website but I think that is a safe assumption based on the twelve franchises in existence since 1967.

As suggested above, Pnep (HF user) could have the info readily available. Send him a PM.

ESPN has it for each season since 2000-01 here:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/te...penaltyMinutes

I am pretty sure this book has stats for each season and recent issues can be purchased for low prices on Amazon: "NHL Official Guide & Record Book (National Hockey League Official Guide and Record Book)." The 2012 book for instance: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

Dropyourgloves.com has fighting majors for each team for each season but I don't see PIMs:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights....aspx?League=1

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12-04-2013, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
The work is figuring out an algorithm which you can script to gather all of the relevant information. Starting in English, perhaps something like:

1. Gather rosters for each franchise in every season since the Flyers' first.
2. Gather career stats by season for each unique player found on the list.
3. Add together all PIM totals for each franchises' roster for each season.

Of course, if you have the first two in a database already, it would be pretty simple to answer the OP.
Ha, this would have been my answer to this question.

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12-04-2013, 05:12 PM
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I'm just doing a presentation on organizational culture in my behavior and organizations class (yes the class is a joke) and am using the Broad Street Bullies as my example. I was able to find PIMs by year for each team but I don't have the time to sum them up.

http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/philade...yers-7439.html

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12-04-2013, 05:14 PM
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PHILADELPHIA

13/14 : 0445~
12/13 : 0737#
11/12 : 1300
10/11 : 1111
09/10 : 1350
08/09 : 1408
07/08 : 1457
06/07 : 1285
05/06 : 1187
03/04 : 1335
02/03 : 0973*
01/02 : 1226
00/01 : 1175
99/00 : 1225
98/99 : 1063
97/98 : 1748
96/97 : 1691
95/96 : 1765
94/95 : 0735#
93/94 : 1665
92/93 : 1873
91/92 : 1828
90/91 : 1925
89/90 : 2051
88/89 : 2305
87/88 : 2166
86/87 : 2068
85/86 : 2015
84/85 : 1537
83/84 : 1482
82/83 : 1326
81/82 : 2471
80/81 : 2581
79/80 : 1818
78/79 : 1526
77/78 : 1662
76/77 : 1541
75/76 : 1970
74/75 : 1953
73/74 : 1740
72/73 : 1744
71/72 : 1219
70/71 : 1052
69/70 : 1107
68/69 : 0954*
67/68 : 0979*

~ Season In Progress
# Two lockout seasons under 1000 PIMs
* Three full regular seasons under 1000 PIMs; only one since 1969.

TOTAL: 69774 PIMs
TOTAL GAMES PLAYED: 3581 GP
PER GAME: 19.48 PIMs/G
PACE PER 82 GAME SEASON: 1597.73 PIMs/S

Source: http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PHI



...Not doing the other teams...

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12-04-2013, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewcrew8 View Post
I'm just doing a presentation on organizational culture in my behavior and organizations class (yes the class is a joke) and am using the Broad Street Bullies as my example. I was able to find PIMs by year for each team but I don't have the time to sum them up.

http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/philade...yers-7439.html
If you can find it for every team then you could copy and paste into a spreadsheet then add it up with the sum function.

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12-04-2013, 05:53 PM
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I have quickly totted up all teams since the 04-05 lockout:

Philadelphia: 10326
Anaheim: 10074
Vancouver: 9677
St. Louis: 9425
Columbus: 9394
Pittsburgh: 9305
Ottawa: 9264
Edmonton: 9022
Calgary: 8914
Dallas: 8863
Toronto: 8794
Montreal: 8670
NY Rangers: 8649
Chicago: 8509
Boston: 8488
Phoenix: 8482
NY Islanders: 8466
L.A: 8461
Winn/Atl: 8392
Washington: 8176
Tampa Bay: 8160
Buffalo: 8145
Colorado: 7930
Minnesota: 7718
San Jose: 7712
Florida: 7653
Nashville: 7552
Carolina: 7389
New Jersey: 7035
Detroit: 6683

I could do up to 97 pretty easily and quickly (like next 30 mins)... but after that it gets hard as I cannot find anywhere with it sortable by name by season. (NHL.com has them up to then.)

I can pretty much copy it in, delete rows and format as a table for each of those years or turn them into pivot tables, then add columns in year by year. (though I do not have SPSS at home... and Excel does not like outside sources as much, so it is still a ball ache even though easier than manual input.)

It would still take a good few hours even if NHL.com had all years and all sortable.

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12-04-2013, 06:31 PM
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Cool, thanks for help!

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12-04-2013, 06:44 PM
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Well... heres 97-98 to present in a nice little chart.

Can't find sortable full NHL PIM per season data after that.

Pretty sure it is all ok as copied the season by season directly into excel, (though I did rush it a bit... but did a two team check on each year at random and they matched to NHL.coms) then put PIMs over into another chart by year... got annoying at the expansion phase... as had to leave blanks when copying over. (nearly came a cropper also as had names the NY teams by 'Islanders' and 'Rangers'... almost ****ed it up in like 2002 pressing sort A-Z... ofc the NY teams were in the wrong place then.)


Last edited by Appleyard: 12-16-2014 at 11:34 AM.
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12-04-2013, 06:52 PM
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Here is the excel file as well if anyone could be arsed continuing!


Last edited by Appleyard: 12-16-2014 at 11:35 AM.
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12-04-2013, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I have quickly totted up all teams since the 04-05 lockout:

Philadelphia: 10326
Anaheim: 10074
Vancouver: 9677
St. Louis: 9425
Columbus: 9394
Pittsburgh: 9305
Ottawa: 9264
Edmonton: 9022
Calgary: 8914
Dallas: 8863
Toronto: 8794
Montreal: 8670
NY Rangers: 8649
Chicago: 8509
Boston: 8488
Phoenix: 8482
NY Islanders: 8466
L.A: 8461
Winn/Atl: 8392
Washington: 8176
Tampa Bay: 8160
Buffalo: 8145
Colorado: 7930
Minnesota: 7718
San Jose: 7712
Florida: 7653
Nashville: 7552
Carolina: 7389
New Jersey: 7035
Detroit: 6683

I could do up to 97 pretty easily and quickly (like next 30 mins)... but after that it gets hard as I cannot find anywhere with it sortable by name by season. (NHL.com has them up to then.)

I can pretty much copy it in, delete rows and format as a table for each of those years or turn them into pivot tables, then add columns in year by year. (though I do not have SPSS at home... and Excel does not like outside sources as much, so it is still a ball ache even though easier than manual input.)

It would still take a good few hours even if NHL.com had all years and all sortable.
That is a huge discrepancy between the top and the bottom and Philly kind of takes the lead by a large margin. Only one other team that's even in that digit count. Not to make myself sound important (because I'm not), but I'm curious why nobody else ever really worries about the fact that we're perpetually among the league leaders in penalty minutes and (more importantly) minor penalties.

You're a mathematical wizard by the way Appleyard. Appreciate it.

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12-04-2013, 07:04 PM
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The big question is, how many of those are offsetting majors, and how many are minors or put the team on the PK?

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12-04-2013, 07:05 PM
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Cheers! I do enjoy doing stuff like that if it does not get too time consuming.

From 1997 (13 1/4 seasons) only St. Louis and New York are within 1000 PIMs of the Flyers in terms of teams that could likely contend for the most since 67.

Chicago, Toronto and Pitt are the only other teams within a ~seasons worth of PIMs.

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12-04-2013, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The big question is, how many of those are offsetting majors, and how many are minors or put the team on the PK?
Haha, yeh, it is really!

It could be done for 97 until now quite easily... (minors)

Though offsetting minors/ 5v3 would be impossible to find unless you went by a game by game basis.

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12-04-2013, 07:09 PM
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Haha, yeh, it is really!

It could be done for 97 until now quite easily... (minors)

Though offsetting minors/ 5v3 would be impossible to find unless you went by a game by game basis.
We need to assign you an intern.

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