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Team Toughness II

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01-18-2014, 04:22 PM
  #526
Rust Heisenberg
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Originally Posted by Mint View Post
Outstanding post.

This 'toughness' issue is way overblown. The Rangers are probably a top 10 team in terms of toughness.
I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Some people on this board have an altered sense of reality with what toughness means. Which is what it seems you are arguing. Toughness doesn't equate to fighting. And in that regard I think we see eye to eye.

But, there is something to say about commanding respect. "There are only so many times that you can stand getting punched in the face when you have to stand up for yourself". That was John Moore. You don't need to be the ****ing Gestapo on the ice where you brutally assault anyone to make a point about how tough you are, but this team is often reluctant to command physical respect from their opponents.

It's not a good look. They need to look out for one another, not passively be looking at opposing players as they skate away after hitting our goaltender.

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01-18-2014, 05:14 PM
  #527
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Neil in a 7 game series will destroy the rangers.. No one can match him physically .. He was out of control today and no one responded .. Yes Moore went to him but come on.

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01-18-2014, 05:34 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Neil in a 7 game series will destroy the rangers.. No one can match him physically .. He was out of control today and no one responded .. Yes Moore went to him but come on.
Actually, by Chris Neil standards, tonight was pretty tame.

He had one iffy hit, and started a few scrums, but other than that, he was a non-factor.

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01-18-2014, 05:37 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Neil in a 7 game series will destroy the rangers.. No one can match him physically .. He was out of control today and no one responded .. Yes Moore went to him but come on.
Ill take a nice 4-1 win over the crap you worry about.

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01-18-2014, 05:50 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ill take a nice 4-1 win over the crap you worry about.
Over a 7 game series, it's a battle of attrition which is a major reason teams win in the playoffs.

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01-18-2014, 05:55 PM
  #531
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Neil threw one bad hit today and three guys mugged him. I don't see an issue.

And regardless, nobody is gonna stop Chris Neil from being Chris Neil. If we waste a roster spot on a goon, Neil would just do what he does anyway, fight the goon, and keep doing it.

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01-18-2014, 05:56 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Over a 7 game series, it's a battle of attrition which is a major reason teams win in the playoffs.
Yep, which is why there are plenty of teams who can dominate in the regular season and get bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

Even though I think the Rangers can make the playoffs, its a pretty big question mark to how well they will perform at this current juncture.

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01-18-2014, 06:08 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Some people on this board have an altered sense of reality with what toughness means. Which is what it seems you are arguing. Toughness doesn't equate to fighting. And in that regard I think we see eye to eye.

But, there is something to say about commanding respect. "There are only so many times that you can stand getting punched in the face when you have to stand up for yourself". That was John Moore. You don't need to be the ****ing Gestapo on the ice where you brutally assault anyone to make a point about how tough you are, but this team is often reluctant to command physical respect from their opponents.

It's not a good look. They need to look out for one another, not passively be looking at opposing players as they skate away after hitting our goaltender.
The idea for some here is that toughness is achieved by having WWE wrestlers on skates. Policing is pretty much done from the game, yet people will still point to that as if it's some sign of major weakness on the team.

A team with physical players like Kreider, Callahan, Girardi, Staal, Moore, Boyle, Dorsett, Carcillo, McDonagh, etc is more than on par with most teams in the league.

Clearly, this team needs to trade 2 more 2nds for Ryane Clowe.

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01-18-2014, 07:16 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Neil in a 7 game series will destroy the rangers.. No one can match him physically .. He was out of control today and no one responded .. Yes Moore went to him but come on.
Chris Neil will be a difference maker in a 7 game series?

Maybe 5 years ago.

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01-18-2014, 07:28 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Mint View Post
The idea for some here is that toughness is achieved by having WWE wrestlers on skates. Policing is pretty much done from the game, yet people will still point to that as if it's some sign of major weakness on the team.

A team with physical players like Kreider, Callahan, Girardi, Staal, Moore, Boyle, Dorsett, Carcillo, McDonagh, etc is more than on par with most teams in the league.

Clearly, this team needs to trade 2 more 2nds for Ryane Clowe.
We lack a Ryan Clowe type on this team. The trade was bad for two reasons. 1) Clowe got concussed and thus is deemed ineffective for us. 2) The trade was already inflated because he was injury prone, aging, and a rental.

Those two factors aside, had we had a Ryan Clowe that hadn't sustained major injuries the past 3 years, one that didn't face 2 concussions to end the season, one that didn't cost as much as he did to trade for... he would have been invaluable to this team.

It's not the physical act of fighting that is important. It's sticking up for your team mates, making that bond closer between you and the other guys. Bigger, grittier players, who hit hard (like Chris Neil) wear out other teams during the course of the game... during the course of a playoff series. Having big guys ourselves helps offset some of that. It helps keep some of those players off the ice for 10 minutes because they're in the penalty box for fighting. It throws other teams' players off their game because they're afraid of being hit or have been hit. If you need evidence of that, Boyle was playing the hockey of his life during our playoff series a couple years back. He wasnt the same after Neil hit him.

You need that in a team. Kreider doesn't grind other players out. He doesn't always finish his checks. You think he's physical because of the occasional "ooooo" hit he makes, but that's derived from his strength, not his intent. Guys like Neil add intent to their strength. Callahan hasn't been the grinder and hitter he once was. He's playing a much more offensive game, which is fine, but still doesn't fit the void we have for such a player. Girardi has more or less given up the physical aspect of his game up. Gone are big hits and fights from his vocabulary. He has a family, understandable. Staal's physicality has reduced since his earlier years. Where's the guy who would go toe to toe with a flying Ovechkin? McDonough? He's a joke in terms of physicality. The only guy with the honor of losing to Sidney Crosby in a scrum. I watched him just watch Simmonds after he intentionally ran over Hank a couple games ago. That's not toughness, that's not grit, that's not even demanding respect. Which gives us Moore, Boyle, and Carcillo. Dorsett won't play over one of them, so he's a non factor in the box. That's 1 physical line that plays 8-10 minutes a game. There's only so much they can do.

You need to add more. It's not enough during a physical playoff series. It just isn't.

Whether it be add Falk in place of Moore or add in a bigger energy guy on the 3rd or 4th line. It just needs to happen.

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01-18-2014, 07:36 PM
  #536
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I remember Chris Neil in a seven game series against the Rangers.

He lost.

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01-18-2014, 07:37 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ill take a nice 4-1 win over the crap you worry about.
Because you don't see the larger picture. You narrow minded views of the game are the reason this team will not go far in the playoffs.. Grit wins cups

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01-18-2014, 07:47 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Because you don't see the larger picture. You narrow minded views of the game are the reason this team will not go far in the playoffs.. Grit wins cups
The 11-12 team was as gritty as they come. Came up short.

You need talent and grit, with the former being far more important than the latter.

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01-18-2014, 08:10 PM
  #539
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Wasn't it when the Canucks against the Sharks in the 2011 Western Conference finals, when tough guy Ben Eager ran around and caused so many problems and the Canucks won that game 7-3 and then the series?

Toughness doesn't win games or playoffs series Clarkner jumped Boyle to defend Karlson and what did it get the Senators?

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01-18-2014, 08:31 PM
  #540
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This team is hitting less as a result on the coaching, same as blocked shots.

CBC was talking about it a good deal, and had the numbers to back it up.

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01-18-2014, 08:36 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Because you don't see the larger picture. You narrow minded views of the game are the reason this team will not go far in the playoffs.. Grit wins cups
Too bad Chris Neil and the Senators won' be anywhere near the playoffs. But I guess that's good for us.

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01-18-2014, 08:57 PM
  #542
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With all due respect, teams with lots of skill wins cups. Hockey IQ wins cups... not grit alone.

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01-18-2014, 09:15 PM
  #543
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The New Jersey team that bounced us out a couple years ago in the conference finals wasn't a very talented team really. Our team that year was a lot more talented than they were. They played a system and their bigger wingers won tons of puck battles from us. The playoffs are about attrition--fighting is rare but big physical players who can play are very important to have. It should be kept in mind as well that their 4th line (Gionta, Bernier, Carter)--a physical line just destroyed us as did Boston's 4th line (Campbell, Paille, Thornton) last year. You need skill but skill is not enough on its own. Your lesser players can't be passengers. The more they contribute the better your chances.

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01-18-2014, 09:34 PM
  #544
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So the hawks were all talent no grit? The kings have no grit? Guys skill yes it does win but grit is a huge part..

So you guys are saying you don't want Chris Neil ?

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01-18-2014, 10:02 PM
  #545
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So you guys are saying you don't want Chris Neil ?
That's correct... I mean I know you already think I have no idea how to build a proper hockey team

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01-18-2014, 10:18 PM
  #546
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The New Jersey team that bounced us out a couple years ago in the conference finals wasn't a very talented team really. Our team that year was a lot more talented than they were. They played a system and their bigger wingers won tons of puck battles from us. The playoffs are about attrition--fighting is rare but big physical players who can play are very important to have. It should be kept in mind as well that their 4th line (Gionta, Bernier, Carter)--a physical line just destroyed us as did Boston's 4th line (Campbell, Paille, Thornton) last year. You need skill but skill is not enough on its own. Your lesser players can't be passengers. The more they contribute the better your chances.
Exception, not the rule. Their forecheck was ridiculous. they played less games than us as well, more scoring chances. Kings, Chitown. Their entire team is talent. With some man power too. You guys blow toughness way out of proportion. Team needs to be complete. The toughness thing here is a bad joke.

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So the hawks were all talent no grit? The kings have no grit? Guys skill yes it does win but grit is a huge part..

So you guys are saying you don't want Chris Neil ?
You make a joke out of yourself again. Those teams were LOADED with talent, I never said no grit. Read before you ****ing post. Stop being ignorant. You call everyone out but then you act like a child and cherrypick. Chris Neil is a good player. He can do more than just TOFFNOSS, as you obsessed crazed people who overvalue it say.

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01-18-2014, 10:26 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
So the hawks were all talent no grit? The kings have no grit? Guys skill yes it does win but grit is a huge part..

So you guys are saying you don't want Chris Neil ?
No we don't. He does almost zero for this team.

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01-18-2014, 10:31 PM
  #548
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No we don't. He does almost zero for this team.
We don't need that type of player. Exactly.

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01-18-2014, 10:34 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
We don't need that type of player. Exactly.
Anyone who says no to adding a Neil for the playoffs proves you have zero hockey sense. I am done with this argument you have no credibility

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01-18-2014, 10:35 PM
  #550
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We can ice a 4th line with Carcillo and Dorsett on it. Those are our Neils. We don't need a team of goons.

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