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PK Subban --> Canada Olympics

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Old
12-10-2013, 03:18 AM
  #301
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The thing is, you don't get 'old reliable vets' without them being 'new risky rookies' first. The good thing about assembling a team is you can mix in some of one and some of the other.

That's why it's a bit different at goal. Luongo and Price will both go, but I'm fine with Luongo starting even if Price is having a better year. Luongo has done it before (taking over from another old vet last time to lead us to gold). Only one guy can play goal, and hopefully Price will get a chance at starting a game or two for the experience so he can come back with confidence in 2018. Not including PK now will just leave him as inexperienced next time. No one's saying that PK must start and be the #1 d-man. But to exclude him completely would be a mistake.

Having said all that, it does seem like this whole thing is media created. As I said in my earlier posts, I don't think Stevie Y and Babcock are creating this controversy and I do believe they're smarter than all of this. It's the media that has to discredit PK at every turn. I watch Habs games and I'm very happy with PK's play. Then I watch TSN or CBC highlights and they make it seem like he's a liability and reckless. They go out of their way to highlight every little mistake. They don't do that with anyone else in the league. You know how Marchand ended up on the ice for that Neal knee to the head? Crosby tripped him without a call. The media didn't mention that. If it was PK, they'd probably be calling for him to be suspended for instigating the whole ugly affair.

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12-10-2013, 10:03 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Punkgoalie View Post
The thing is, you don't get 'old reliable vets' without them being 'new risky rookies' first. The good thing about assembling a team is you can mix in some of one and some of the other.

That's why it's a bit different at goal. Luongo and Price will both go, but I'm fine with Luongo starting even if Price is having a better year. Luongo has done it before (taking over from another old vet last time to lead us to gold). Only one guy can play goal, and hopefully Price will get a chance at starting a game or two for the experience so he can come back with confidence in 2018. Not including PK now will just leave him as inexperienced next time. No one's saying that PK must start and be the #1 d-man. But to exclude him completely would be a mistake.

Having said all that, it does seem like this whole thing is media created. As I said in my earlier posts, I don't think Stevie Y and Babcock are creating this controversy and I do believe they're smarter than all of this. It's the media that has to discredit PK at every turn. I watch Habs games and I'm very happy with PK's play. Then I watch TSN or CBC highlights and they make it seem like he's a liability and reckless. They go out of their way to highlight every little mistake. They don't do that with anyone else in the league. You know how Marchand ended up on the ice for that Neal knee to the head? Crosby tripped him without a call. The media didn't mention that. If it was PK, they'd probably be calling for him to be suspended for instigating the whole ugly affair.
You should ask yourself why people are talking about that. Why has Dreger kept on repeating that PK is on the outside looking in. Why is PK the only guy talked about for Team Canada?

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12-10-2013, 10:21 AM
  #303
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You should ask yourself why people are talking about that. Why has Dreger kept on repeating that PK is on the outside looking in. Why is PK the only guy talked about for Team Canada?
Probably to get a reaction out of people. By the looks of it, it's definitely working.

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12-10-2013, 11:37 AM
  #304
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Probably to get a reaction out of people. By the looks of it, it's definitely working.
Why would Team Canada want a reaction out of people? Dreger isn't reporting this unless he heard from an inside source. So why would someone leaked this out to the media?

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12-10-2013, 11:56 AM
  #305
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You should ask yourself why people are talking about that. Why has Dreger kept on repeating that PK is on the outside looking in. Why is PK the only guy talked about for Team Canada?
I hear the same chatter about Giroux. He's french canadian, if he doesn't make the team is it racist? There's no other possibility I guess.

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12-10-2013, 12:07 PM
  #306
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I hear the same chatter about Giroux. He's french canadian, if he doesn't make the team is it racist? There's no other possibility I guess.
I didn't hear the same thing about Giroux. I heard he isn't a lock anymore, and that's due to the fact he didn't score in his first 15 games. The team he Captains was going down the crapper. And nobody was talking about putting a concussed veteran in the line up over him (Boyle). Now he's back in the picture with him and his team having picked it up.
So ya, if PK wasn't scoring pts and looked rather ordinary, not to mention suffering a wrist injury, with his team playing at the bottom of the league, then I'd have no problem agreeing that PK isn't playing well enough to deserve a spot.
Except that isn't the case. PK won the Norris last year, has been between 1-3 for pts all year long, and could yet again be nominated for the Norris.
I would say the situations are quite significantly different.

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12-10-2013, 12:09 PM
  #307
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You should ask yourself why people are talking about that. Why has Dreger kept on repeating that PK is on the outside looking in. Why is PK the only guy talked about for Team Canada?
The same reason you are writing about it. Because in Toronto and Montreal, there is soap opera drama around every move.

If PK played for an American team, it would just be understood that PK makes the team, there would be no will-he-won't-he daily journaling about it.

There is realistically only 2 markets where a media outlet can turn this type of decision into hits on a website, listeners to radio programs, and discussion about TV segments. We are fans within one of those markets. We are the problem, not Dreger.

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12-10-2013, 12:25 PM
  #308
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The same reason you are writing about it. Because in Toronto and Montreal, there is soap opera drama around every move.

If PK played for an American team, it would just be understood that PK makes the team, there would be no will-he-won't-he daily journaling about it.

There is realistically only 2 markets where a media outlet can turn this type of decision into hits on a website, listeners to radio programs, and discussion about TV segments. We are fans within one of those markets. We are the problem, not Dreger.
That's not the point.
The question isn't about why it's being reported. The question is why is PK on the out.
If this was all media fabrication, you'd be right. Except it isn't media fabrication. Dreger and Bobby Mac didn't create this out of thin air, Team Canada gains absolutely nothing from telling those guys PK is on the out.

And creating hits isn't a problem for our markets, you can talk about it, but no need to harp on it. It's constantly being discussed and I strongly doubt it's because they lack website circulation.

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12-10-2013, 01:28 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I didn't hear the same thing about Giroux. I heard he isn't a lock anymore, and that's due to the fact he didn't score in his first 15 games. The team he Captains was going down the crapper. And nobody was talking about putting a concussed veteran in the line up over him (Boyle). Now he's back in the picture with him and his team having picked it up.
So ya, if PK wasn't scoring pts and looked rather ordinary, not to mention suffering a wrist injury, with his team playing at the bottom of the league, then I'd have no problem agreeing that PK isn't playing well enough to deserve a spot.
Except that isn't the case. PK won the Norris last year, has been between 1-3 for pts all year long, and could yet again be nominated for the Norris.
I would say the situations are quite significantly different.
I prefer to leave the trophy case out of this. I mean, if all we wanted was people who have been awarded hardware, the team wouldn't really make sense. Look at the Vezina voting last season, why aren't the other goalies getting consideration considering they placed higher?

Subban and Giroux have both had a bad games in the last year. This Olympic team isn't being made up of players based just on this year's stats. I can make an argument that Giroux has every right to be on this team based on his abilities. I can make it a racial debate as well, just like the P.K Subban fan club who are doing the same.

It's not quite as fun when we pull the race card about french canadians, compared to skin color though.. is it?

I believe he should be on Team Canada ahead of other candidates. But if he isn't, it really doesn't affect me either way. I forget about the Olympics the day after it is done, it's not that big of a deal in my world.

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12-10-2013, 02:03 PM
  #310
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I'm fine with this, if he makes the team in the number 8 spot, it's still a bit absurd, but PK will play his way onto the team in much more prominent role if he gets any ice-time at all. All he has to do is get a single shift and I believe he will slowly climb the ladder.

This is a positive development, not so sure why it took so long, but this is good. If PK makes the team in any capacity, he will force his way into a prominent role, I have no doubt about it.

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12-10-2013, 02:10 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by MTLSandman* View Post
He won the Norris, and he's by far our strongest player defensively. He's also just as good at shutting down opponents as anyone in the league. All this BS about him being bad defensively is unwarranted. He'll be Canada's best defenceman and he's the guy you want on the ice in big moments.
He did get beat one-on-one on a weird play with a bouncing puck last week where he didn't take the man, and was beaten to the outside a couple weeks ago, but that's all I can remember for this season. He's usually solid one-on-one because of his incredible skating.

In the corners, he's awesome. Quick on the puck and strong and he has eyes in the back of his head. His positioning is excellent, but we rarely see him interacting within a defensive zone structure waving his stick because he is always the first man on the puck. Players rarely have time/space when he's on the ice.

We all know about his passing, puck carrying, shot, etc.

In the past he sometimes overhandled the puck coming out of his own end as the last man, but he seems to have cut that out of his game this year.

He has made a few forced passes, so he's prone to that on occasion, but that's pretty rare too.

He and Gill shut down the Lucic line in the 2011 series, so he's shown his two-way ability for awhile now. They couldn't even get to the net on us and he owned Lucic on every rush. So, he's capable of playing the game any way you want.

If he's left off the Olympic team or not given a prominent role, I'd be shocked, but Yzerman is a savvy dude, no way that will happen. And I don't even think it's a question. In fact, this whole bogus PK debate has probably lifted all teh pressure of Stevie Y in selecting the team. Nobody is talking about the goalie situation anymore either now that Price has taken his game to another level as well. I think both will have large roles on the team, as they should.

As for your worries about PK being exposed on the big ice, don't. I'd worry about the other countries with all that ice for PK to skate on and make stretch passes.


Last edited by tinyzombies: 12-10-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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12-10-2013, 02:15 PM
  #312
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I prefer to leave the trophy case out of this. I mean, if all we wanted was people who have been awarded hardware, the team wouldn't really make sense. Look at the Vezina voting last season, why aren't the other goalies getting consideration considering they placed higher?

Subban and Giroux have both had a bad games in the last year. This Olympic team isn't being made up of players based just on this year's stats. I can make an argument that Giroux has every right to be on this team based on his abilities. I can make it a racial debate as well, just like the P.K Subban fan club who are doing the same.

It's not quite as fun when we pull the race card about french canadians, compared to skin color though.. is it?

I believe he should be on Team Canada ahead of other candidates. But if he isn't, it really doesn't affect me either way. I forget about the Olympics the day after it is done, it's not that big of a deal in my world.
French isn't a race, so you're comparison falls completely flat.

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12-10-2013, 02:37 PM
  #313
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I prefer to leave the trophy case out of this. I mean, if all we wanted was people who have been awarded hardware, the team wouldn't really make sense. Look at the Vezina voting last season, why aren't the other goalies getting consideration considering they placed higher?

Subban and Giroux have both had a bad games in the last year. This Olympic team isn't being made up of players based just on this year's stats. I can make an argument that Giroux has every right to be on this team based on his abilities. I can make it a racial debate as well, just like the P.K Subban fan club who are doing the same.

It's not quite as fun when we pull the race card about french canadians, compared to skin color though.. is it?

I believe he should be on Team Canada ahead of other candidates. But if he isn't, it really doesn't affect me either way. I forget about the Olympics the day after it is done, it's not that big of a deal in my world.
Why would going about trophy winners be a bad idea?
Here's the list of winners from last year:
Hart: Ovechkin
Vezina: Bobrovsky
Norris: Subban
Calder: Huberdeau
Lindsay: Crosby
Selke: Toews
Lady Bing: St-Louis
NHL Found.: Zetterberg
Clancy: Bergeron
Messier: Alfredsson
Rocket: Ovechkin
Art Ross: St-Louis

Leaving the Calder winner out for obvious reasons, all the other guys are expected to be making their Olympic rosters, and there's very little doubt as to whether or not they'll make it. I don't see why it should be different with PK.
Might be a few lucky one year wonders over the course of history, but generally speaking, winners are part of the Elite and the real deal, so I don't think you can just dismiss it.


As for Team Canada, they specifically said this season would play a very key and determining factor in player selection. They also added there would be no favoritism, that it would be on a purely meritorious case. Based on that alone, I don't see how PK doesn't make the team. Then you also add in his Norris win, and it makes it an even more favorable case.
PK has had bad games, like every other player in the NHL this year. The issue is that it's all that is being focused on, his few bad games, to the point where there's a flawed evaluation of PK and poorer players are being pushed for over him.
With Giroux, he had a very poor first half thus far, he had a bad injury that required surgery, and yet no poorer player has been mentioned to be ahead of him on the roster.

There's a clear difference between where PK is compared to Giroux, and the way they've been talked about. If Giroux was playing like a top 3 center in the NHL but apparently behind poorer guys for player selection (with no french canadian on the team), speculations of prejudice towards french canadians would absolutely surface.

I don't care too much about the Olympics either, but this is a thread discussing the matter.


Last edited by Kriss E: 12-10-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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12-10-2013, 03:34 PM
  #314
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Why would going about trophy winners be a bad idea?
And to add to that, it's worse for defensmen, because the Norris is usually the only trophy for which they have a shot at. Hart, Byng, Lindsay etc. usually go to top scorers or goalie.

Looking at the list of Norris winners from the last 25 years, every one of them played for his country at the Olympics save for Paul Coffey (too old/injured in 1998).

If you browse through the complete list of Norris winners all the way back to 1954, there's no doubt that each and every one of these guys make it on their national team if NHLers are allowed.

But yeah, it shouldn't count when it's Subban...

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12-10-2013, 03:44 PM
  #315
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When a french player was called a frog that is a racist term like it or not thats how bad it was decades ago.When a soceity in Quebec were not allowed to own businesses in parts of Quebec that was racist.Sabban is black but what ethnic group does he belong to.There are different ethnicity of peoples.Do you know the basques are the oldest ethnic group in w.europe are they white or are they brown.Yes there is bias but to what degree.

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12-10-2013, 03:46 PM
  #316
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And to add to that, it's worse for defensmen, because the Norris is usually the only trophy for which they have a shot at. Hart, Byng, Lindsay etc. usually go to top scorers or goalie.

Looking at the list of Norris winners from the last 25 years, every one of them played for his country at the Olympics save for Paul Coffey (too old/injured in 1998).

If you browse through the complete list of Norris winners all the way back to 1954, there's no doubt that each and every one of these guys make it on their national team if NHLers are allowed.

But yeah, it shouldn't count when it's Subban...
Nevermind that...none of those previous Norris Trophy winners dating back to 1954 were as risky as PK Subban, not to mention that all of those previous winners were left handed, except of course those who were right handed

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12-10-2013, 03:59 PM
  #317
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French isn't a race, so you're comparison falls completely flat.
Oh I see, so racism only applies to skin color now? Interesting stuff here. Stop the presses, there is no such thing as racial discrimination, habsfanatics has it all figured out.

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12-10-2013, 04:04 PM
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Oh I see, so racism only applies to skin color now? Interesting stuff here. Stop the presses, there is no such thing as racial discrimination, habsfanatics has it all figured out.
Racism is when speaking of different races.

When it's due to language, isn't it called prejudice?

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12-10-2013, 04:06 PM
  #319
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French isn't a race, so you're comparison falls completely flat.
Lol. You'd be a good lawyer!

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12-10-2013, 04:35 PM
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Racism is when speaking of different races.

When it's due to language, isn't it called prejudice?
That would be discrimination.

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12-10-2013, 04:47 PM
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Despite the automatic respect for many sportswriters and reporters.. most of them are actually insecure hacks.

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12-10-2013, 04:55 PM
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If PK doesn't make this team there's no amount of logic in the world that can explain it. It would have been an emotional decision. Regardless of what's behind it, there is no logical reason you can't include him on the team. For instance, if he's "not ready" this year, wouldn't it be worthwhile to include him as an extra Dman so he can prepare over the next four years? It's been done before (see Eric Brewer 2002 Team Canada)

And ugh about racism arguments, these will never be proven and it's not necessarily the keyfactor.. it's moreso a questions surrounding PK's maturity which has to do with several factors including his heritage, race, family traditions, professionalism, discipline.. there are a number of factors that make up a person... not just their race.. though, a person's heritage is often the foundation for who they are. See, this is why there can't be a logical explanation about leaving him off the roster.... his "personality" isn't good enough for team Canada? He's one of the top D in the league... judging someone on the basis of their personality is not a logical judgment.. it's linked to your emotions, what you like and dislike... so if he's left off, it was an emotional decision, and you can label it within that however you like (racism, dumb, wrong) as emotions are a biased thing. People will try to use logic to explain them, but, it doesn't always work...

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12-10-2013, 05:23 PM
  #323
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If PK doesn't make this team there's no amount of logic in the world that can explain it. It would have been an emotional decision. Regardless of what's behind it, there is no logical reason you can't include him on the team. For instance, if he's "not ready" this year, wouldn't it be worthwhile to include him as an extra Dman so he can prepare over the next four years? It's been done before (see Eric Brewer 2002 Team Canada)

And ugh about racism arguments, these will never be proven and it's not necessarily the keyfactor.. it's moreso a questions surrounding PK's maturity which has to do with several factors including his heritage, race, family traditions, professionalism, discipline.. there are a number of factors that make up a person... not just their race.. though, a person's heritage is often the foundation for who they are. See, this is why there can't be a logical explanation about leaving him off the roster.... his "personality" isn't good enough for team Canada? He's one of the top D in the league... judging someone on the basis of their personality is not a logical judgment.. it's linked to your emotions, what you like and dislike... so if he's left off, it was an emotional decision, and you can label it within that however you like (racism, dumb, wrong) as emotions are a biased thing. People will try to use logic to explain them, but, it doesn't always work...
There can't be any logical explanation?? How about the coach doesn't want him there, that's logical enough for me. This happens in soccer all the time. Some players are locks for the national team under one coach and then dropped when the other coach takes over. If Pk doesn't make it it's not because he's not a good player but because Babcock/Yzerman see something in his game that they don't like...end of story. If it was another coach/gm combo maybe PK would be a 1st choice lock playing 25 min for Team Canada. This racism garbage is getting old.

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12-10-2013, 06:12 PM
  #324
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Oh I see, so racism only applies to skin color now? Interesting stuff here. Stop the presses, there is no such thing as racial discrimination, habsfanatics has it all figured out.
It means exactly what I said it means, being French isn't a race. You might want to educate yourself before you make stupid comments.

Discriminatory, sure, prejudice sure, racism it's not.

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12-10-2013, 06:29 PM
  #325
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There can't be any logical explanation?? How about the coach doesn't want him there, that's logical enough for me. This happens in soccer all the time. Some players are locks for the national team under one coach and then dropped when the other coach takes over. If Pk doesn't make it it's not because he's not a good player but because Babcock/Yzerman see something in his game that they don't like...end of story. If it was another coach/gm combo maybe PK would be a 1st choice lock playing 25 min for Team Canada. This racism garbage is getting old.
Yea sure, if what they don't like actually made sense.
If it's because of what we've heard, that he's too risky, but then they mention Letang being ahead, it definitely makes no sense. Actually, PK doesn't take any more risks than Doughty or Keith either.

There's gotta be some consistency in the reasoning, and with what we've heard it certainly looks like people are flat out digging for reasons to justify not picking him.

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