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Diamond: Firing Barry Trotz wouldn't fix the Predators

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Old
12-09-2013, 08:30 PM
  #26
CalleJAMkrok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
We heard the same things about Jeff Fisher with the Titans, and they were right, St. Louis grabbed him up, and man he sure has led them to no where.....

I'm sure Trotz would get another job but his shelf life here has expired.

We do need better players, but Trotz system is the one of the reasons free agents don't want to play here.
yeah its not like we want to fire trotz to make sure he never coaches in the NHL again, we just dont want him to coach our team any longer...

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12-09-2013, 08:45 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Nashville Transplant View Post
Wow... and two people agreed with you...

Well, let me take the flip side...

The team went 0-3-1 in front of their home crowd, and looked like crap for the better part of 240 minutes. If nothing else, Clune brings intensity and a relentless forecheck... Whether it was Smith, or Bourque, these guys sleepwalk through large stretches of the game, and Trotz had to try SOMETHING. He's only able to work with what Poile has given him. I can't blame him for Clune being the only spare forward, but I don't think there's a single coach in the NHL who wouldn't make whatever change was available to him after those stinkers at Bridgestone.
I'm not mad about Clune being in the lineup, I'm mad about who had to sit for him to be in the lineup.

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12-09-2013, 09:13 PM
  #28
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First off, not a goon... second... about the same as if he was not.
Clune is a goon

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12-09-2013, 10:01 PM
  #29
Roman Yoshi
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How is clune not a goon?

Back on topic… firing Trotz will not solve our problems immediately, but it will give us hope for the future. His message, system, and personnel decisions have unfortunately cost us two seasons. His decision to sit Rads and AK arguably lost us the PHX series a few years ago as we were down our best forwards. Don't forget how man times wilson sat in the playoffs. I also think Trotz was a big reason Suter ended up leaving.

The bigger problem is the construction of this team. It sucks. We have redundant pieces everywhere. Zero talent up front with the exception of a few sparks but no fire. This team needs a player like Karyia, someone who can elevate his line mates. We don't have that.

Poile is more to blame for this team's failures than anyone, and his decision making of late has gotten even more senile. The contracts he handed out this summer, his inability to seal deals, inability to sign Weber (really Philly signed Weber, not us) or Suter. Bringing in Rads to a team that was very close knit (something I strongly warned against). It's just… I don't know, it seems like he hasn't been on his rocker since Suter left. I respect the man for the things he has done over the past decade, but everyone has a shelf live that expires at one time or another.

Dump both of them. Give Fenton the torch and let him pick his coach and his staff. Let them evaluate the team and dismantle it together, that way they can rebuild on the same page.

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12-09-2013, 10:06 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Nashville Transplant View Post
First off, not a goon... second... about the same as if he was not.
LOL. Not a goon? 17 GP 0 goals 0 assists 69 PIM. Goon.

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12-09-2013, 10:17 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Roman Yoshi View Post
How is clune not a goon?

Back on topic… firing Trotz will not solve our problems immediately, but it will give us hope for the future. His message, system, and personnel decisions have unfortunately cost us two seasons. His decision to sit Rads and AK arguably lost us the PHX series a few years ago as we were down our best forwards. Don't forget how man times wilson sat in the playoffs. I also think Trotz was a big reason Suter ended up leaving.

The bigger problem is the construction of this team. It sucks. We have redundant pieces everywhere. Zero talent up front with the exception of a few sparks but no fire. This team needs a player like Karyia, someone who can elevate his line mates. We don't have that.

Poile is more to blame for this team's failures than anyone, and his decision making of late has gotten even more senile. The contracts he handed out this summer, his inability to seal deals, inability to sign Weber (really Philly signed Weber, not us) or Suter. Bringing in Rads to a team that was very close knit (something I strongly warned against). It's just… I don't know, it seems like he hasn't been on his rocker since Suter left. I respect the man for the things he has done over the past decade, but everyone has a shelf live that expires at one time or another.

Dump both of them. Give Fenton the torch and let him pick his coach and his staff. Let them evaluate the team and dismantle it together, that way they can rebuild on the same page.
No tradeable pieces save Weber. Only real option is to push FA, try to entice Stasny here if he's still out there. He and Smith played well together. Maybe go after Steen or Moulson if available. Let Legwand walk. Buy out (insert one of the 100 4th liners here).

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12-09-2013, 10:46 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Montross View Post
No tradeable pieces save Weber. Only real option is to push FA, try to entice Stasny here if he's still out there. He and Smith played well together. Maybe go after Steen or Moulson if available. Let Legwand walk. Buy out (insert one of the 100 4th liners here).
Stastny is redundant. Another 50-55 point two-way center. Legwand would be cheaper, and is actually on a higher production pace. Alex Steen? Seriously? Great player, but he's going to get a ridiculous amount of money having the career year of all career years. I sure hope it's not from us. None of that is the top end talent that's going to get us anywhere. Moulson would be fine. He's a fairly limited player, but scores goals.

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12-10-2013, 07:52 AM
  #33
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This quote from Trotz really irks me.

Quote:
“We’re about winning. We’re in the winning business. We’re not in the development business at this level, and if we’re not winning, then the pressure comes on the coach and the organization, and there’s no question you feel it.”
http://blogs.tennessean.com/predator...-the-pressure/

Okay, yeah technically you're in the winning business. You're also in it to develop the young players for the future. I'm talking about Forsberg here. Having him sit in the press box isn't developing him, he's not learning anything. Young players need actual game experience whether it's in the NHL or in the AHL. Having him sit and watch is doing absolutely nothing for him now and will hurt in the future. I know he's hurt now but if you're not going to play him, send him to Milwaukee and bring up a Mark Van Guilder type to watch from the press box.

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Old
12-10-2013, 08:04 AM
  #34
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I see JK Gover's response over at Section303.com.

As much as I understand, there's a point where you have to ask, "Is it worth it?"

Case in point - my current situation with my car. Not even a week after I got it from my dad (who brought it up to Central WI from AZ), I got into an accident. Fortunately, I still had my old car, which I used until it was repaired.

Fast forward to this weekend. I get into not one, but TWO accidents with said car. One involving a deer, one involving a teenager.

Can you guess how many people have suggested to me that I should consider getting a new car?

I'm thinking that's the situation we have with Trotz (and, to a certain extent, with Poile). Funny thing is, everyone's wanting to talk about "getting rid of the car" without talking about "can you afford a car payment?" Or "Would your insurance rates go up?" Or, "How long could you make do with only one car?" Or even, "Will you end up spending more on gas with a new vehicle?"

I'm not equating winning a Stanley Cup with a car driven to and from work. But the situation is similar in one fact: I can't afford a new car right now. And no one is stepping forward to buy me or offer me another one. Yet I've already had people on another interwebs board suggest all sorts of other vehicles - including armored surplus trucks and late-model Toyota Tacomas.

You know what? I just want my car back. And I just want my Predators team that wins a few hockey games occasionally back, too.

Both in one piece.

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Old
12-10-2013, 09:14 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post

Can you guess how many people have suggested to me that I should consider getting a new car?

I'm thinking that's the situation we have with Trotz (and, to a certain extent, with Poile). Funny thing is, everyone's wanting to talk about "getting rid of the car" without talking about "can you afford a car payment?" Or "Would your insurance rates go up?" Or, "How long could you make do with only one car?" Or even, "Will you end up spending more on gas with a new vehicle?"

I'm not equating winning a Stanley Cup with a car driven to and from work. But the situation is similar in one fact: I can't afford a new car right now. And no one is stepping forward to buy me or offer me another one. Yet I've already had people on another interwebs board suggest all sorts of other vehicles - including armored surplus trucks and late-model Toyota Tacomas.

You know what? I just want my car back. And I just want my Predators team that wins a few hockey games occasionally back, too.

Both in one piece.
The problem is, the Preds car is sitting on blocks in your front yard. You're waiting on a part that might show up 3-4 years from now, and you're not sure if that part will even work, considering some of the recent parts you've bought are just sitting in the trunk because they don't fit the car's system.

All the while, you're not going anywhere at all.

You've got to get to work, so at what point do put the clunker out to pasture and get a new one?

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Old
12-10-2013, 11:05 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post
I see JK Gover's response over at Section303.com.
Quote:
You can’t just replace Trotz with anyone. Who do you have in mind? More importantly, did coaching changes help the other expansion teams? The Atlanta Thrashers/Winnipeg Jets have yet to win a single playoff game in their existence. Same goes for the Columbus Blue Jackets. The Minnesota Wild have been to the playoffs just four times ever. Finally, the Florida Panthers have been to the postseason just twice – winning just three playoff games total – since the Predators’ inception
Ah yes, we could be "worse" argument. So winning playoff games but coming up short is the barometer of success these days? It isn't like we've had a ton of playoff success. Sure, we've won two series but then got spanked in the second rounds.

The funny thing is about an article like this, where the point is that the team doesn't have scorers (who here has been saying that for years??) is that where is the article calling out Poile for his failures? Where is the Poile should step down or be fired article? I mean its hinted at that the team isn't built properly, but its really in defense of Trotz. So where's the callout for Poile?

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12-10-2013, 11:10 AM
  #37
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Ah yes, we could be "worse" argument. So winning playoff games but coming up short is the barometer of success these days? It isn't like we've had a ton of playoff success. Sure, we've won two series but then got spanked in the second rounds.

The funny thing is about an article like this, where the point is that the team doesn't have scorers (who here has been saying that for years??) is that where is the article calling out Poile for his failures? Where is the Poile should step down or be fired article? I mean its hinted at that the team isn't built properly, but its really in defense of Trotz. So where's the callout for Poile?
I've talked pretty extensively with Jim...his stance on not firing Trotz is basically that "Trotz didn't build the team." He points the blame squarely at Poile for this situation.

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12-10-2013, 11:12 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I've talked pretty extensively with Jim...his stance on not firing Trotz is basically that "Trotz didn't build the team." He points the blame squarely at Poile for this situation.
Where are the fire Poile articles then?

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12-10-2013, 11:31 AM
  #39
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Ah yes, we could be "worse" argument. So winning playoff games but coming up short is the barometer of success these days? It isn't like we've had a ton of playoff success. Sure, we've won two series but then got spanked in the second rounds.

The funny thing is about an article like this, where the point is that the team doesn't have scorers (who here has been saying that for years??) is that where is the article calling out Poile for his failures? Where is the Poile should step down or be fired article? I mean its hinted at that the team isn't built properly, but its really in defense of Trotz. So where's the callout for Poile?
It's on both at this point. Poile is supposed to get the pieces he feels is necessary for the team to succeed. It's then on Trotz to take those players and make a winner out of them. I've read that Trotz and Poile targeted certain players in the offseason. If I remember correctly they said they got 4 of the 6 guys they targeted. I get targeting Cullen and Stalberg. I have grown to like Nystrom. Hendricks baffles me. Signing Gaustad to the deal he signed a few years ago baffles me. At the end of the day, if these are the guys we've targeted and then paid this type of money to, they both need to go. Trotz has had teams that could've done damage in the playoffs. They didn't. If it's about winning then he should be gone.

As far as his comments that this isn't a developmental league I'm just raising my eyebrows on that one. Of course it's a developmental league. Guys have to learn to play at this level. They just don't get thrown out there and succeed. Some take time to grow, some can step right in and do well. Some succeed, then stumble then go on to do well or some go the route of Jon Blum.

We are a team that can't score yet we scratch guys that can put the puck in the net. We can't score but lambast guys for putting the puck in the net and not playing their defensive role to a T. Wilson finally breaks out for a 4 point night and Stalberg has 2 yet the team is ripped for not playing defensively enough. Goal drought ensues. Team comes home after a long road trip and blasts Chicago but then comes home and loses to teams that are no better or worse than us scoring 5 goals in 4 games. I see Rinne, Weber and Josi have been out and that's being used as an excuse as to why the team hasn't performed to some degree.

Guess what, if you don't have Rinne and you don't play perfect and I mean a perfect defensive game,we're going to lose. We focus so much on the defensive side of things that if we fail at any point, the puck is in the net and we are forced to score. How about trying to score in addition to playing a good two game. What a concept.

Also, a team full of second, third and fourth liners will not get it done in the NHL. Every team that has won the Cup in the last 10-15 years has at least 4 true top 6 guys, some of them being top 3 talents. If we can't get them via free agency or pick high enough in the draft, we have to trade for them. You can't hoard quality defensemen and get nothing for them when they leave via free agency. I understand why we didn't move Hamhuis or Suter but to get nothing for either of them was stupid looking back at it. Hamhuis probably would've gotten us a top 6 player or a top 6 prospect. Suter would've gotten us a top 6, possibly a top 3 prospect and/or some 1st round picks. If Gaustad, who was a UFA, was able to get a 1st rounder from us, then I can't imagine we couldn't have gotten twice that for Hamhuis or Suter. It's mismanagement of assets and when you lose good player after good player and don't have the farm system to constantly replace them, you're going to start to slide down the mountain.

The day Suter wouldn't sign the contract he agreed to, he should've been traded and we would've gotten the forward help we so desperately needed. Now we still need that help AND we don't have Suter. Heck, we could've moved Weber and then thrown bigger money at Suter as well.

There are so many possibilities but the stagnant nature of old school guys doing things the old school way doesn't work in the newer NHL. You need talent out there. You need to put guys in a position to succeed. Forsberg sitting on the bench does not help him or the team. Smith being sat again does nothing to help his confidence. The kid has been busting his tail off out on the ice yet gets sat. Guys like Hendricks and Gaustad who are supposed to bring energy bring nothing to me. They are defensively sound guys but they are not what was advertised, tough to play against and sandpaper players. They need to throw the body around. They need to make people pay for hits against our better players. As much as I hate to say this, I long for the days of Smithson and Tootoo. They at least hit something. They at least brought energy. Heck, Smithson actually scored on occasion too which is something that Hendricks doesn't have the ability to do it seems.

Trotz has always favored his veterans at the cost of the youngsters. Why do you think our good younger players leave when free agency hits? It's not the city as tons of guys love living here. It's not the fans. It's the coach. Years and years of unfair treatment would make me leave my place of work. The double standard would tick me off too. I make a mistake and I get benched but a veteran can make the same mistake and play their next shift? That's BS and the players can obviously see that.

Let Housley take the reigns. Let Fenton take over and be aggressive with the roster. Trade from a position of strength and add a top 3 forward. Get rid of the dead weight in our grinders. Play the young kids who deserve a shot. I'd rather watch Watson and Beck then to watch overpaid veterans not get the job done. Maybe if we have 4 lines of second and third liners we'd actually score.

Or wait, here's one better, play your better players more than your players that don't produce. What a concept. Give them ice time and maybe you'll get the offense you're sorely lacking.

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12-10-2013, 11:42 AM
  #40
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LOL..........Craig Smith is not at morning skate this am. Probably was an injury reason that Trotz scratched him last game and we didn't know.
Have to take humor where you can find it with this team!

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12-10-2013, 11:51 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Where are the fire Poile articles then?
The team strongarms that kind of blunt declaration,but the subtext of this piece is basically just that. "Look at the lineup...you want to blame Trotz for that?"

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12-10-2013, 12:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Nashville Transplant View Post
Wow... and two people agreed with you...

Well, let me take the flip side...

The team went 0-3-1 in front of their home crowd, and looked like crap for the better part of 240 minutes. If nothing else, Clune brings intensity and a relentless forecheck... Whether it was Smith, or Bourque, these guys sleepwalk through large stretches of the game, and Trotz had to try SOMETHING. He's only able to work with what Poile has given him. I can't blame him for Clune being the only spare forward, but I don't think there's a single coach in the NHL who wouldn't make whatever change was available to him after those stinkers at Bridgestone.
Scratch Hendricks then, it's not like he's doing ****.

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12-10-2013, 12:09 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
The day Suter wouldn't sign the contract he agreed to, he should've been traded and we would've gotten the forward help we so desperately needed. Now we still need that help AND we don't have Suter.
Some of us suggested this and got absolutely blasted on these boards. Same thing with the team needing scoring, which brought on the usual blasts of how we'd turn into Columbus or Florida, or how there weren't players out there at all.

The funny thing is, we've turned into the Floridas, Columbuses, Edmontons, etc. We're likely another top 5 pick this year. It's ok, at least we won a few playoffs games years ago.

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12-10-2013, 12:22 PM
  #44
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Regarding this level being a "development league" - I'd point to our former 'big brother rivals' from the motor city, who basically have the approach that they'll take the risk on the overripe side having prospects playing at GR rather than bringing them up under-developed. Not saying I necessarily fully agree or disagree, just pointing out an approach from a fairly successful franchise.

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12-10-2013, 12:22 PM
  #45
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LOL..........Craig Smith is not at morning skate this am. Probably was an injury reason that Trotz scratched him last game and we didn't know.
Have to take humor where you can find it with this team!
Dunno why he's out today, but according to Josh Cooper:

"Predators forward Craig Smith, a healthy scratch for Saturday’s game at Washington, will be back in the lineup against the Rangers on Tuesday."

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...nclick_check=1

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12-10-2013, 12:32 PM
  #46
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Some of us suggested this and got absolutely blasted on these boards. Same thing with the team needing scoring, which brought on the usual blasts of how we'd turn into Columbus or Florida, or how there weren't players out there at all.

The funny thing is, we've turned into the Floridas, Columbuses, Edmontons, etc. We're likely another top 5 pick this year. It's ok, at least we won a few playoffs games years ago.
At the time I thought I was right but in retrospect I was clearly wrong. It happens. At least I'm willing to admit it.

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12-10-2013, 12:46 PM
  #47
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At the time I thought I was right but in retrospect I was clearly wrong. It happens. At least I'm willing to admit it.
I don't think you were Glenn. No way of knowing what we would have got for him, and no guarantee that we wouldn't be sitting at the same point today with relatively little to show for the trade and minus a series win. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't, as he would've been equally criticized for undercutting a strong team with the opportunity to make a playoff run.

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12-10-2013, 12:48 PM
  #48
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I don't think you were Glenn. No way of knowing what we would have got for him, and no guarantee that we wouldn't be sitting at the same point today with relatively little to show for the trade and minus a series win. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't, as he would've been equally criticized for undercutting a strong team with the opportunity to make a playoff run.
I know but if we could've moved him we would've gotten a good piece or pieces in return to help the playoff run. No way to know at this point.

When I see so many of our defensmen playing elsewhere and we have nothing to show for it, that's what I question.

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12-10-2013, 12:57 PM
  #49
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Dunno why he's out today, but according to Josh Cooper:

"Predators forward Craig Smith, a healthy scratch for Saturday’s game at Washington, will be back in the lineup against the Rangers on Tuesday."

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...nclick_check=1
Now he's likely out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaCooper ‏@JoshuaCooper
Craig Smith has flu like symptoms

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12-10-2013, 01:04 PM
  #50
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I know but if we could've moved him we would've gotten a good piece or pieces in return to help the playoff run. No way to know at this point.

When I see so many of our defensmen playing elsewhere and we have nothing to show for it, that's what I question.
I doubt it. Even a player of Suter's caliber, I don't see that we would've gotten back significant assets that would have helped us win then. If we had, it's questionable whether they would still be here to be part of a build now. Either way, we likely lose the best player in the deal, and I also don't think we mount as strong a push without Suter on the back end of that squad. The bigger mistake in that whole season, IMO, was bringing back Radulov for the end of the season, rather than trying to bring him back for the full next season. That was just from a chemistry standpoint, but it is what it is.

To your second part, I'll probably have a different take on it than many will, but losing players is just part of the nature of sports. We have lost some significant pieces over the years with nothing really to show for it, but we're far from the only team to make that claim. I don't like playing the "maximize assets" game constantly with players. In some situations, yes, you need to move on from a player and get back what you can. Otherwise, if you're in a position where you are always shipping out players, then you're either: sitting on an incredible wealth of assets, or you lack ambition/are content to be bad. I don't really have an issue holding on to Hamhuis or Suter based on the contexts of the two seasons.

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