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Old
12-17-2013, 03:34 PM
  #76
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Not a chance on the Shattenkirk for the Schenns.

Luke Schenn at 3.6M has negative value, period. So it's even worse than trading Shattenkirk for Brayden, which we Blues fans agree we wouldn't do. Shattenkirk is the kind of dman you need in the modern NHL – an elite transition offensive dman. His year-by-year value has an established floor and can only go up. Brayden is not yet established, so Shattenkirk is worth more (scarcity principle). Forcing us to take Luke at 3.6M makes the deal even worse. No chance of this one.

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12-17-2013, 03:35 PM
  #77
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I bet Hitchcock thinks he could make LSchenn into a valuable player.

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Old
12-17-2013, 03:37 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I bet Hitchcock thinks he could make LSchenn into a valuable player.
I bet most coaches think they can teach a player to be better, so that really doesn't mean anything. Brayden alone as opposed to both brothers is a more valuable deal. Certainly for us.

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12-17-2013, 03:40 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Losveratos View Post
When you Cherry pick your starting and end dates it's incredibly easy to make almost any talented player look better than another.

In their NHL careers Lupul has scored 360 points compared to Giroux' 316
In the decade before Lupul had scored 225 points compared to Giroux' 74
Lupul had more playoff goals and points than Giroux last year
Lupul has more goals this year while playing 7 fewer games
Lupul's PPG was higher last season

Cherry picking gets you nowhere. That's why I commented that the criteria that the Philly fan used to say that Lupul wasn't a PPG player could be exactly applied to Giroux.

Later changing your criteria doesn't disregard the fact that cherry picking is stupid and applying different times and rules to different players because you like them more or less is also stupid.

Apply to all or don't use it as your argument. Because obviously if you don't like the set of circumstances applied to your player, it means it shouldn't be applied to any.
Cherry picking? He just chose the last three years.

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12-17-2013, 03:42 PM
  #80
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I don't think it's terrible and I'm a Blues fan and STH. We actually save cap this year with this trade, get bigger and stronger, gives us a top 6 22yr old forward to insert in case we lose Steen, otherwise just makes our top 9 even deeper, etc.

I think Luke needs a change of scenery in the worst way. We haven't had that type of punishing defenseman in our top 6 in the longest time and it's noticeable when they line up against bigger teams. I still think he can be an Adam Foote type of guy. Maybe I'm wrong but I think he could fit very well.

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12-17-2013, 05:01 PM
  #81
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I don't think it's terrible and I'm a Blues fan and STH. We actually save cap this year with this trade, get bigger and stronger, gives us a top 6 22yr old forward to insert in case we lose Steen, otherwise just makes our top 9 even deeper, etc.

I think Luke needs a change of scenery in the worst way. We haven't had that type of punishing defenseman in our top 6 in the longest time and it's noticeable when they line up against bigger teams. I still think he can be an Adam Foote type of guy. Maybe I'm wrong but I think he could fit very well.
You don't pay 3.6M for a guy who needs a change of scenery who would be a healthy scratch when the D is healthy. That should be self-explanatory.

This has actually been discussed a decent amount on the Blues board in the trade thread (what would we move Shattenkirk to get), and while some think he could be movable to get the right center, almost nobody thinks that's Schenn, even if we like Schenn. Flyers would have to add (and making us also take Luke is them subtracting). And we're not trading Shattenkirk in a quality for quantity deal. The league has changed and you need transition to make the Blues' system work and swapping Shattenkirk for Luke Schenn is a massive step backward and would be super stupid on the Blues' part. If they were to move Shattenkirk they need to replace him with at least a strong zone-exiter even if that guy isn't going to put up points. That's not Luke Schenn. Hitch even said in the paper today that he played Colaiacovo over Cole last night because of transition and Colaiacovo is absolutely terrible. That gives you an idea of the philosophy to which Hitchcock is totally committed.

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12-17-2013, 05:53 PM
  #82
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Cherry picking? He just chose the last three years.
Then Lupul is as much a ppg player as Giroux. 2 years ago he was a ppg like Giroux. Last year he was a ppg and this year he's under. Just like Giroux. So if Giroux is a ppg player than so is lupul. And if you look at full careers then they're both not ppg players.

Btw I don't think lupul is better than Giroux. I've just been stating that by exactly what he said about lupul, could be applied to Giroux as well.

And of course he chose the last three years. (Giroux' best years and none of his worst)


Last edited by Losveratos: 12-17-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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Old
12-17-2013, 05:56 PM
  #83
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You don't pay 3.6M for a guy who needs a change of scenery who would be a healthy scratch when the D is healthy. That should be self-explanatory.
If that were actually true, that would be self-explanatory. Unfortunately, it's not. Luke missed 3 games early on after he struggled playing with a terrible fit on his pair. In the 6-8 weeks since then, he's played well and absolutely, positively is a member of the top-6.

That said, I get not wanting to move Shattenkirk for the Schenns.

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12-17-2013, 06:01 PM
  #84
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I'd be interested in the schenns for edler but maybe in the off season after people ease up on edler and he gets out of his slump. Much like hamhuis did earlier this season

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Old
12-17-2013, 06:02 PM
  #85
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He's not cherry picking if he's talking about the majority of Giroux's career. Giroux's career PPG rate is .86. Lupul's is only .64.

Not sure what your other comparisons are there for. I'm glad Lupul has scored an extra 45 points in nearly 200 extra games, or that he had more playoff goals last year when the Flyers didn't even make the playoffs.
I was showing you an example of cherry picking. Also Giroux was only exceptional 1yr. In a so far short career. It skews the results. Let's wait for him to hit 100 points again.

And again, this isn't a talk about Giroux better than lupul or the reverse. Just trying to defend the idea that now lupul might be considered a ppg player by most people due to the last 2yrs prior. And if he does do it again this year which is possible. Then as far as I'm concerned, he's cemented it.

Feel free to disagree.

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12-17-2013, 07:52 PM
  #86
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Do Flyers fans think Edler for both Schenns is fair? I would throw in Jensen too if wanted.

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12-17-2013, 09:25 PM
  #87
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Do Flyers fans think Edler for both Schenns is fair? I would throw in Jensen too if wanted.
give us Kassian

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Old
12-17-2013, 09:39 PM
  #88
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I was showing you an example of cherry picking. Also Giroux was only exceptional 1yr. In a so far short career. It skews the results. Let's wait for him to hit 100 points again.

And again, this isn't a talk about Giroux better than lupul or the reverse. Just trying to defend the idea that now lupul might be considered a ppg player by most people due to the last 2yrs prior. And if he does do it again this year which is possible. Then as far as I'm concerned, he's cemented it.

Feel free to disagree.
I guess the biggest difference is Lupul ppg seasons give him 1 career season of over 53 points and is 67 points. Giroux has a 93 point season and a 76 point season. Much bigger accomplishment for Giroux. And also lupul's 16 game season is so small a sample size.

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12-17-2013, 10:09 PM
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give us Kassian
Burrows and Edler are both out with injuries. The team looks a lot better without them. They are better trade targets than the emerging Kassian.

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Old
12-17-2013, 10:15 PM
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I was showing you an example of cherry picking. Also Giroux was only exceptional 1yr. In a so far short career. It skews the results. Let's wait for him to hit 100 points again.
Giroux has never hit 100 points in a season and probably never will.

But over the last four seasons, i.e. ever since he got more than the 16:36 minutes of ice time he got in 09-10, he has been a PPG player.

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Old
12-17-2013, 10:18 PM
  #91
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Giroux has never hit 100 points in a season and probably never will.

But over the last four seasons, i.e. ever since he got more than the 16:36 minutes of ice time he got in 09-10, he has been a PPG player.
Then I hope without asking in a manner that seems condescending or what have you... what's going on this year?

For Lupul I would wager it was getting taken off the 1st line. JVR took his place. And instead of being a winger for Kadri on the second line like last year... Holland is now his Center. Kadri is on the first line because both Bozak and Bolland were injured.

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12-17-2013, 10:27 PM
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Then I hope without asking in a manner that seems condescending or what have you... what's going on this year?

For Lupul I would wager it was getting taken off the 1st line. JVR took his place. And instead of being a winger for Kadri on the second line like last year... Holland is now his Center. Kadri is on the first line because both Bozak and Bolland were injured.
Lupul is a point vulture. He doesn't do much for your offense other than leech off others creating plays. Take him away from guys who do all the work for him and he stinks. It's showing since being replaced by a MUCH better JVR and not having Kadri to carry his dead weight.

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12-17-2013, 10:55 PM
  #93
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Lupul is a point vulture. He doesn't do much for your offense other than leech off others creating plays. Take him away from guys who do all the work for him and he stinks. It's showing since being replaced by a MUCH better JVR and not having Kadri to carry his dead weight.
I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I was asking what's going on with Giroux.

But thanks for your scathing opinion of Lupul. I would however like to point out that Lupul playing with Kessel put up quite a higher ppg than JVR. Also when he was moved to Kadri's Line and JVR was still on the first line he still put up more than a ppg and JVR wasn't even close. So I'm not sure where you're getting the "MUCH better" and "dead weight".

Just so you're aware of course

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12-17-2013, 11:17 PM
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Not much, since the better Schenn is injury prone.

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12-18-2013, 03:50 AM
  #95
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I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I was asking what's going on with Giroux.

But thanks for your scathing opinion of Lupul. I would however like to point out that Lupul playing with Kessel put up quite a higher ppg than JVR. Also when he was moved to Kadri's Line and JVR was still on the first line he still put up more than a ppg and JVR wasn't even close. So I'm not sure where you're getting the "MUCH better" and "dead weight".

Just so you're aware of course
I've seen plenty of Lupul to know exactly what type of player he is. Others around him make him look much better than he really is. James Neal is another such player. My kids are all Pens fans so I watch all their games too and I can safely tell you that when Malkin is out of the lineup that Neal is a ghost on the ice and my kids agree.

Now, as for the Flyers, IDK. All I can do is take some guesses. Get ready because I'm not going to pull any punches and I'll probably piss off a lot of my fellow Flyers fans

Giroux - I think injuries have really slowed him down since his 93 point season. He's had wrist surgery, hand surgery and a neck/back injury that I know of. In his 93 point season he went hell bend for election like a man possessed. He just doesn't seem to have that same fire and I think it must be all these nagging injuries.

Voracek - he either has an undisclosed injury that he's trying to play through or he's gone brain dead. He just isn't skating with the same drive he had the last 2 years. He"glides" a lot this year instead of driving with his legs.

Read - actually has played really well this year except for 3 or 4 bad games.

Simmonds - I'm gonna get in trouble for this one but if we can trade him for some of the players offered on these boards I pray to god that we trade him before everyone else realizes he's just not that good. He has poor hockey sense and stone hands. I mean I can't tell you how many times he's been set up this year with an open net and he can't hit the broad side of a barn with his shot. News flash to everyone else, if you trade for him you'll love his physical play but that's all you'll get.

Coots, has looked really good at times and really bad at times. There are just too many games where he's chasing the play in the defensive zone or missing his assignments and costing us goals against. If you have any doubts just look at his +/- for the past 2weeks. I know that's not the end all be all telling stat but watch the games and hold him accountable.

B Schenn - improving on last year. Consistently one of our better forwards game in, game out. He's still young and prone to mistakes but there is no doubting his effort every night. There is reason to still believe he can be a very good #2 or low end #1 center.

Hartnell - not nearly as bad as most Flyers fans think and at least he can finish unlike Simmonds.

Downie - has been great in his return to Philly.

I'll give the forwards a little bit of latitude on their drop in scoring from last year as they are playing more defensively responsible this year.

Mason has been very good this year but a lot of his success is because the defense has been the best aspect of our team this year. The few games that the defense has really crapped the. Bed, Mason has been exposed.

Timonen is still getting older and he's lost another 3 steps. Coburn is by far our best dman. Meszaros shouldn't be playing, Gus should. Grossman has been very good. L Schenn hasn't been nearly as bad as he's made out to be. He does very well when he keeps it simple and gets into trouble when he tries to do too much.

I hope that addresses your question regarding the Flyers.

Write this down. 2 things that I'm pretty certain will come to pass. 1) it will be revealed that Voracek has been playing with an injury that affects his skating (sports hernia or so). 2) Simmonds isn't that good and everyone will soon realize that he's NOT a budding PWF in the making.

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12-18-2013, 07:29 AM
  #96
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Then I hope without asking in a manner that seems condescending or what have you... what's going on this year?
The first month of the year was a team-wide offensive disaster of historical proportions thanks to Holmgren waiting till the season had already started to fire Laviolette and install a new coach and a new system.

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12-18-2013, 08:59 AM
  #97
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Not much, since the better Schenn is injury prone.
He's played 3 years in the NHL and the only time up until now he's missed time was when he had his foot broken in 2011. How is that injury prone?

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12-18-2013, 12:59 PM
  #98
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I've seen plenty of Lupul to know exactly what type of player he is. Others around him make him look much better than he really is. James Neal is another such player. My kids are all Pens fans so I watch all their games too and I can safely tell you that when Malkin is out of the lineup that Neal is a ghost on the ice and my kids agree.

Now, as for the Flyers, IDK. All I can do is take some guesses. Get ready because I'm not going to pull any punches and I'll probably piss off a lot of my fellow Flyers fans

Giroux - I think injuries have really slowed him down since his 93 point season. He's had wrist surgery, hand surgery and a neck/back injury that I know of. In his 93 point season he went hell bend for election like a man possessed. He just doesn't seem to have that same fire and I think it must be all these nagging injuries.

Voracek - he either has an undisclosed injury that he's trying to play through or he's gone brain dead. He just isn't skating with the same drive he had the last 2 years. He"glides" a lot this year instead of driving with his legs.

Read - actually has played really well this year except for 3 or 4 bad games.

Simmonds - I'm gonna get in trouble for this one but if we can trade him for some of the players offered on these boards I pray to god that we trade him before everyone else realizes he's just not that good. He has poor hockey sense and stone hands. I mean I can't tell you how many times he's been set up this year with an open net and he can't hit the broad side of a barn with his shot. News flash to everyone else, if you trade for him you'll love his physical play but that's all you'll get.

Coots, has looked really good at times and really bad at times. There are just too many games where he's chasing the play in the defensive zone or missing his assignments and costing us goals against. If you have any doubts just look at his +/- for the past 2weeks. I know that's not the end all be all telling stat but watch the games and hold him accountable.

B Schenn - improving on last year. Consistently one of our better forwards game in, game out. He's still young and prone to mistakes but there is no doubting his effort every night. There is reason to still believe he can be a very good #2 or low end #1 center.

Hartnell - not nearly as bad as most Flyers fans think and at least he can finish unlike Simmonds.

Downie - has been great in his return to Philly.

I'll give the forwards a little bit of latitude on their drop in scoring from last year as they are playing more defensively responsible this year.

Mason has been very good this year but a lot of his success is because the defense has been the best aspect of our team this year. The few games that the defense has really crapped the. Bed, Mason has been exposed.

Timonen is still getting older and he's lost another 3 steps. Coburn is by far our best dman. Meszaros shouldn't be playing, Gus should. Grossman has been very good. L Schenn hasn't been nearly as bad as he's made out to be. He does very well when he keeps it simple and gets into trouble when he tries to do too much.

I hope that addresses your question regarding the Flyers.

Write this down. 2 things that I'm pretty certain will come to pass. 1) it will be revealed that Voracek has been playing with an injury that affects his skating (sports hernia or so). 2) Simmonds isn't that good and everyone will soon realize that he's NOT a budding PWF in the making.
I'll take Simmonds over Hartnell 10/10 with no hesitation. I don't know how you can say Hartnell isn't as bad as he looks but Simmonds is worse than he looks...

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12-18-2013, 01:10 PM
  #99
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I've seen plenty of Lupul to know exactly what type of player he is. Others around him make him look much better than he really is. James Neal is another such player. My kids are all Pens fans so I watch all their games too and I can safely tell you that when Malkin is out of the lineup that Neal is a ghost on the ice and my kids agree.

Now, as for the Flyers, IDK. All I can do is take some guesses. Get ready because I'm not going to pull any punches and I'll probably piss off a lot of my fellow Flyers fans

Giroux - I think injuries have really slowed him down since his 93 point season. He's had wrist surgery, hand surgery and a neck/back injury that I know of. In his 93 point season he went hell bend for election like a man possessed. He just doesn't seem to have that same fire and I think it must be all these nagging injuries.

Voracek - he either has an undisclosed injury that he's trying to play through or he's gone brain dead. He just isn't skating with the same drive he had the last 2 years. He"glides" a lot this year instead of driving with his legs.

Read - actually has played really well this year except for 3 or 4 bad games.

Simmonds - I'm gonna get in trouble for this one but if we can trade him for some of the players offered on these boards I pray to god that we trade him before everyone else realizes he's just not that good. He has poor hockey sense and stone hands. I mean I can't tell you how many times he's been set up this year with an open net and he can't hit the broad side of a barn with his shot. News flash to everyone else, if you trade for him you'll love his physical play but that's all you'll get.

Coots, has looked really good at times and really bad at times. There are just too many games where he's chasing the play in the defensive zone or missing his assignments and costing us goals against. If you have any doubts just look at his +/- for the past 2weeks. I know that's not the end all be all telling stat but watch the games and hold him accountable.

B Schenn - improving on last year. Consistently one of our better forwards game in, game out. He's still young and prone to mistakes but there is no doubting his effort every night. There is reason to still believe he can be a very good #2 or low end #1 center.

Hartnell - not nearly as bad as most Flyers fans think and at least he can finish unlike Simmonds.

Downie - has been great in his return to Philly.

I'll give the forwards a little bit of latitude on their drop in scoring from last year as they are playing more defensively responsible this year.

Mason has been very good this year but a lot of his success is because the defense has been the best aspect of our team this year. The few games that the defense has really crapped the. Bed, Mason has been exposed.

Timonen is still getting older and he's lost another 3 steps. Coburn is by far our best dman. Meszaros shouldn't be playing, Gus should. Grossman has been very good. L Schenn hasn't been nearly as bad as he's made out to be. He does very well when he keeps it simple and gets into trouble when he tries to do too much.

I hope that addresses your question regarding the Flyers.

Write this down. 2 things that I'm pretty certain will come to pass. 1) it will be revealed that Voracek has been playing with an injury that affects his skating (sports hernia or so). 2) Simmonds isn't that good and everyone will soon realize that he's NOT a budding PWF in the making.
As a Flyers fan, I agree with most of this.

Couturier the last 2 weeks has been on the wrong end of goals. Maybe he is trying to do too much offensively now.

Simmonds is better than Hartnell. Simmonds is what he is. A 20+ goal scorer...40-50 point guy. Has great speed when he is on his game. I agree...no hands. But he does have net presence.

Hartnell. Hoping that he re-dedicates himself in the offseason. His foot was an issue last year...and maybe it still bugs him...who knows. I for one would trade him for Hemsky today so I would not have to take the chance.

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Old
12-18-2013, 06:09 PM
  #100
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He's played 3 years in the NHL and the only time up until now he's missed time was when he had his foot broken in 2011. How is that injury prone?
What you didn't see that hit he took yesterday and didn't get injured from? It was all over the site, how could you miss it?

To be fair Schenn had a concussion and a shoulder injury in his 1st year that made him miss a bunch of games. I don't remember the foot injury, is it possible you are misremembering his shoulder injury for a foot injury?

The point stands, B Schenn is not injury prone. That's just dumb.

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