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Old
04-07-2014, 01:50 PM
  #401
Appleyard
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I wonder if they will just wait on signing Kimmo until after Pronger has been LTIR'd?

They could do the same with Schenn... though that would be stupid, an offer sheet would be a real possibility. His market value is ~$2.75 mill, and someone would likely give 4 million.

Hartnell ($4.75m) - Giroux ($8.275m) - Voracek ($4.25m)
Schenn ($2.75m) - Lecavalier ($4.5m) - Simmonds ($3.975m)
Raffl ($1.1m) - Couturier ($1.75m) - Read ($3.625m)
Rinaldo ($750k) - Laughton ($894k) - xxxxxxxxx
Rosehill ($675k)

Streit ($5.25m) - Coburn ($4.5m)
L. Schenn ($3.6m) - Grossmann ($3.5m)
MacDonald ($4.5m) - xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
Pronger ($4.942m)

Mason ($4.1m)
xxxxxxx

That gives $6.164m (assuming cap of 71.1) for a:

4th liner. (~1m)
A #7. (~1m)
Backup. (~1-1.5 mill)

Then when put Pronger on LTIR sign Kimmo... though not perfect could be done.

Better would be trading Grossmann though.

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04-07-2014, 02:43 PM
  #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I wonder if they will just wait on signing Kimmo until after Pronger has been LTIR'd?

They could do the same with Schenn... though that would be stupid, an offer sheet would be a real possibility. His market value is ~$2.75 mill, and someone would likely give 4 million.

Hartnell ($4.75m) - Giroux ($8.275m) - Voracek ($4.25m)
Schenn ($2.75m) - Lecavalier ($4.5m) - Simmonds ($3.975m)
Raffl ($1.1m) - Couturier ($1.75m) - Read ($3.625m)
Rinaldo ($750k) - Laughton ($894k) - xxxxxxxxx
Rosehill ($675k)

Streit ($5.25m) - Coburn ($4.5m)
L. Schenn ($3.6m) - Grossmann ($3.5m)
MacDonald ($4.5m) - xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
Pronger ($4.942m)

Mason ($4.1m)
xxxxxxx

That gives $6.164m (assuming cap of 71.1) for a:

4th liner. (~1m)
A #7. (~1m)
Backup. (~1-1.5 mill)

Then when put Pronger on LTIR sign Kimmo... though not perfect could be done.

Better would be trading Grossmann though.
The contracts are pretty well distributed actually. The fwds make very little on great contracts besides G. The dmen make a **** ton. When the fwd bridge contracts need to be paid up or we sign a guy like Ryan we should have a bunch of dmen playing well on great elc contracts. Same is possible in goal.

Puts our sweet spot starting in two years I would think.

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04-07-2014, 04:28 PM
  #403
LegionOfDoom91
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I doubt he would do it but if Timonen could sign an incentive based deal like Iginla did with Boston for this year that would be awesome.

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Old
04-07-2014, 05:09 PM
  #404
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The motto with the Flyers (and with any sports team) is... "Good. Cheap. Young"

Steps

1. Resign Timonen 1X$4.5 (Im assuming he returns)
2. Resign Macdonald 4X$4.25
3. Resign B. Schenn 2X$2.25 (Or we could do something like 5X$4.25)
4. Resign Emery 1X$1.5
5. Resign Hall 2X$700,000
6. Trade Streit for 2nd+3rd
7. Trade Grossmann for 2nd+3rd
8. Trade Gustafsson for 3rd
9. Trade 1st+ 3 2nds+ 3 3rds for Cam Fowler
10. Sign Dennis Rammussen 2X$925,000(European prospect)
11. Sign Shayne Gotisbehere 3X$925,000 (ELC)
12. Recall Laughton

So the lines could potentially look like this...

FORWARDS
Brayden Schenn ($2.250m) / Claude Giroux ($8.275m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Vincent Lecavalier ($4.500m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Matt Read ($3.625m) / Sean Couturier ($1.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
Dennis Ramussen ($0.925m) / Scott Laughton ($0.894m) / Michael Raffl ($1.100m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Adam Hall ($0.700m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Shayne Gotisbehere ($0.925m) / Kimmo Timonen ($4.500m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Cam Fowler ($4.000m)
Luke Schenn ($3.600m) / Andrew MacDonald ($4.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Steve Mason ($4.100m)
Ray Emery ($1.500m)

We could also potentially sign a LW like Moulson or Vanek.

Note: I know that this is unrealistic but i can imagine, cant I?

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04-07-2014, 05:18 PM
  #405
LegionOfDoom91
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Are we counting on Bob Murray to pick up a drug habit for that Fowler trade?

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Old
04-07-2014, 05:35 PM
  #406
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I didn't want to trade you guys fowler... But then you added that 2nd 3rd round pick...

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04-07-2014, 05:37 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Are we counting on Bob Murray to pick up a drug habit for that Fowler trade?
I was hoping that we could bribe Mike Richards to drive over there and hold a gun to his head.

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04-07-2014, 05:39 PM
  #408
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All right, I get it. It was a bad trade.

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04-07-2014, 06:52 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I doubt he would do it but if Timonen could sign an incentive based deal like Iginla did with Boston for this year that would be awesome.
Boston are going to be hit with a $4.5m cap penalty next season in large part due to the Iginla contract. It was worth it for them since they are the best team in the league with Iginla and may well win the Cup, but I don't think Kimmo is worth that kind of risk for us next season.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...s-next-season/

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04-07-2014, 07:00 PM
  #410
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I'm ready for Timonen to go. We aren't competing (seriously) this year or next, so I'd much rather see Gus playing over Kimmo. It's amazing how much hate the idea of re-signing an old Jagr in 2012 got, yet people can't really grasp the idea of life after Kimmo.

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04-07-2014, 07:08 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
I'm ready for Timonen to go. We aren't competing (seriously) this year or next, so I'd much rather see Gus playing over Kimmo. It's amazing how much hate the idea of re-signing an old Jagr in 2012 got, yet people can't really grasp the idea of life after Kimmo.
Because we have an abundance of wingers/forwards, but not top-end D-men like Kimmo. Sure he's a #2 or 3 now, but he's very very very solid.

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04-07-2014, 07:10 PM
  #412
LegionOfDoom91
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Boston are going to be hit with a $4.5m cap penalty next season in large part due to the Iginla contract. It was worth it for them since they are the best team in the league with Iginla and may well win the Cup, but I don't think Kimmo is worth that kind of risk for us next season.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...s-next-season/
Ah I guess not worth it then.

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04-07-2014, 07:10 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Boston are going to be hit with a $4.5m cap penalty next season in large part due to the Iginla contract. It was worth it for them since they are the best team in the league with Iginla and may well win the Cup, but I don't think Kimmo is worth that kind of risk for us next season.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...s-next-season/

That is something that worries me as well.

I would prefer Timonen coming back for another year though instead of overpaying for a free agent. Re-sign Timonen and MacDonald while trading Grossman for the best pick we can get for him then have Gus, Ghost, Alt, Lauridson, etc. battle it out for the 6th spot. Use one more of those or a cheap vet for the 7th in case of injury.

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04-07-2014, 07:15 PM
  #414
LegionOfDoom91
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
I'm ready for Timonen to go. We aren't competing (seriously) this year or next, so I'd much rather see Gus playing over Kimmo. It's amazing how much hate the idea of re-signing an old Jagr in 2012 got, yet people can't really grasp the idea of life after Kimmo.
It really isn't about competing for a cup or not, by re-signing Timonen it buys us another year to find a solution for our defense whether it be the propects, trades, free agency etc.

Timonen is still a good defender & arguably the best on the team despite his age. Gus isn't a replacement for Timonen, we would be ****ed if that were to happen.

In the case of Jagr he had a heir apparent for his spot who was clearly ready for it in Voracek.

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04-07-2014, 07:48 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Because we have an abundance of wingers/forwards, but not top-end D-men like Kimmo. Sure he's a #2 or 3 now, but he's very very very solid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
It really isn't about competing for a cup or not, by re-signing Timonen it buys us another year to find a solution for our defense whether it be the propects, trades, free agency etc.

Timonen is still a good defender & arguably the best on the team despite his age. Gus isn't a replacement for Timonen, we would be ****ed if that were to happen.

In the case of Jagr he had a heir apparent for his spot who was clearly ready for it in Voracek.
Sure Voracek was primed to take the spot on G's wing, but Jagr could still be a very useful player on this team with how the 2nd unit has looked.

Re-signing Kimmo doesn't buy us time to find the defense's solution. He isn't the solution as is, so it's not as if another year of Kimmo will change anything. Keeping Timonen as a stop-gap for a defensive solution would've been a great option in 2011, not 2014. I'm a pretty big Gus fan and I feel he can definitely step in and replace Kimmo effectively. Maybe not perfectly, but eventually we'll have to let go of Kimmo and actually let the kids play.

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04-07-2014, 08:07 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
Sure Voracek was primed to take the spot on G's wing, but Jagr could still be a very useful player on this team with how the 2nd unit has looked.

Re-signing Kimmo doesn't buy us time to find the defense's solution. He isn't the solution as is, so it's not as if another year of Kimmo will change anything. Keeping Timonen as a stop-gap for a defensive solution would've been a great option in 2011, not 2014. I'm a pretty big Gus fan and I feel he can definitely step in and replace Kimmo effectively. Maybe not perfectly, but eventually we'll have to let go of Kimmo and actually let the kids play.
It wasn't just Voracek look at the depth at the RW spot beyond him with Simmonds & Read as well. I liked Jagr but bringing him back for what he was going to get on the open market made no sense then & even now for the Flyers when we had great depth at his position. In a perfect world I would have liked to keep him but in today's NHL you can't with the salary cap in place.

We don't that type have that depth on defense to move on from Timonen just yet. Regardless of what you think of Gus he's not the solution for Timonen & most on here would agree with that. He's fine as a bottom pair guy but he would get feasted on going up against the competition Timonen & Coburn go against night in & night out. In all honestly there's a good chance Gus isn't even on the roster year next let alone replacing Timonen.

Hagg & Gostisbehere will both likely get their first years of AHL experience next year while Morin will likely be wrapping up his junior career, these guys aren't ready for next year as is but could possibly be the following year. Timonen buys us an extra year for their development instead of throwing them to the wolves & forcing them into the lineup not ready for it.

It also gives us another year to keep scanning the trade market for a defensemen.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 04-07-2014 at 08:13 PM.
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Old
04-07-2014, 08:10 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
Re-signing Kimmo doesn't buy us time to find the defense's solution. He isn't the solution as is, so it's not as if another year of Kimmo will change anything. Keeping Timonen as a stop-gap for a defensive solution would've been a great option in 2011, not 2014. I'm a pretty big Gus fan and I feel he can definitely step in and replace Kimmo effectively. Maybe not perfectly, but eventually we'll have to let go of Kimmo and actually let the kids play.
That's exactly what it does, actually.

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04-07-2014, 08:20 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
Sure Voracek was primed to take the spot on G's wing, but Jagr could still be a very useful player on this team with how the 2nd unit has looked.

Re-signing Kimmo doesn't buy us time to find the defense's solution. He isn't the solution as is, so it's not as if another year of Kimmo will change anything. Keeping Timonen as a stop-gap for a defensive solution would've been a great option in 2011, not 2014. I'm a pretty big Gus fan and I feel he can definitely step in and replace Kimmo effectively. Maybe not perfectly, but eventually we'll have to let go of Kimmo and actually let the kids play.
Gus will be 26 in the early part of next season, he isn't really a kid. Many people want Kimmo back for another year because he IS a good option for a stop-gap next year while we wait for the kids to be ready. Ghost is the only one who will likely be a possibility for next year. Hagg and Morin will both need at least another year of development before they will be ready. Re-signing Kimmo and trading Grossman is a better option if you want to actually let the kids play based on contract years remaining as I believe Grossman has two more years after this year while Timonen would be given a one year contract.

Timonen-Coburn
Streit-MacDonald
Schenn-Gus/Ghost

That looks much better than,

Streit-Coburn
Macdonald-Grossman
Gus-Schenn

I like Gus but if the Schenns aren't packaged together in a trade and Timonen wants to come back I am not saying no to him just so Gus can play. I would rather trade Grossman to add some cap flexibility and future contract flexibility while adding in Gus (or Ghost if he beats Gus out) to increase the mobility of the D even more. After next season Kimmo almost certainly retires and if Grossman or Schenn was traded you can potentially have both Ghost and Hagg playing with the Flyers if they are ready.

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04-07-2014, 08:21 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
It wasn't just Voracek look at the depth at the RW spot beyond him with Simmonds & Read as well. I liked Jagr but bringing him back for what he was going to get on the open market made no sense then & even now for the Flyers when we had great depth at his position. In a perfect world I would have liked to keep him but in today's NHL you can't with the salary cap in place.

We don't that type have that depth on defense to move on from Timonen just yet. Regardless of what you think of Gus he's not the solution for Timonen & most on here would agree with that. He's fine as a bottom pair guy but he would get feasted on going up against the competition Timonen & Coburn go against night in & night out. In all honestly there's a good chance Gus isn't even on the roster year next let alone replacing Timonen.

Hagg & Gostisbehere will both likely get their first years of AHL experience next year while Morin will likely be wrapping up his junior career, these guys aren't ready for next year as is but could possibly be the following year. Timonen buys us an extra year for their development instead of throwing them to the wolves & forcing them into the lineup not ready for it.

It also gives us another year to keep scanning the trade market for a defensemen.
IIRC the complaints against Jagr weren't about the depth we had, but his age. At time people were angry at the thought of re-signing a 40 year old even though the a Richards and Carter trades were supposed to start a youth movement.

I'm not trying to pencil in Ghost, Hagg, or Morin into next year's lineup (Especially Morin). I do admittedly think Ghost could be an interesting injury call up, but that all relies on how he does in the AHL if he even goes pro.

I'm just trying to anticipate Kimmo's decline and Gus' potential. Hell, worst case scenario is Gus gets mutilated and Kimmo is sorley missed. At the very least we gained cap and developed Gus better than we currently are.

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That's exactly what it does, actually.
Maybe if the needed "defensive solution" is an aging top 4 defenseman

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04-07-2014, 08:33 PM
  #420
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Maybe if the needed "defensive solution" is an aging top 4 defenseman
That's not what you said. You said Kimmo isn't a good stop-gap while looking for a solution.

No one thinks he's a solution. He's a very good stop-gap though.

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04-07-2014, 08:38 PM
  #421
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Sign him for $4m in October, after Pronger goes on LTIR.

I think that will work.

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04-07-2014, 08:40 PM
  #422
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The defensive solution is more than likely Morin, Hagg, and Ghost. The thing that Timonen does is buy us an extra year for them to develop while icing a D that can still help keep us competitive. Even at his age Timonen is a top 4 Dman. Gus will likely never be more than a 4 and is currently a bottom 2 Dman on this team if another D was moved. Timonen is a stop-gap, not a "defensive solution". Likewise, a 26 year old Gus is not going to do much for this team moving forward aside from being a solid choice on the bottom pair.

Re-signing Timonen buys us time. Nobody has said he is the solution.

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04-07-2014, 08:42 PM
  #423
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That's not what you said. You said Kimmo isn't a good stop-gap while looking for a solution.

No one thinks he's a solution. He's a very good stop-gap though.
He isn't. Kimmo of 2012 would be a perfect stop-gap. Based off of 2014 Kimmo, I can't imagine his 2015 self will be any better.

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04-07-2014, 08:46 PM
  #424
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IIRC the complaints against Jagr weren't about the depth we had, but his age. At time people were angry at the thought of re-signing a 40 year old even though the a Richards and Carter trades were supposed to start a youth movement.

I'm just trying to anticipate Kimmo's decline and Gus' potential. Hell, worst case scenario is Gus gets mutilated and Kimmo is sorley missed. At the very least we gained cap and developed Gus better than we currently are.
That's probably the way the Flyers looked at it, the cap space was better suited for another area considering what was behind him in Voracek, Simmonds, & Read. The Flyers bumped up a lot of their younger players who had a good first year here into increased roles with the team the following year, some worked (Voracek, Simmonds, & Read) & some didn't (Schenn & Couturier).

Timonen will likely be back on a one year deal & the Flyers will fit him in they always do, plus you don't win awards in this league for saving cap space. I rather bank on Timonen being able to handle his role again next year than Gus being thrown into a role he can't handle, there's nothing I've seen of Gus that leads me to believe he's anything more than a bottom pairing defender.

However for arguments sake let's say there is more to Gus why would throwing him into a role he isn't ready for & him getting destroyed in it help his development?

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04-07-2014, 09:05 PM
  #425
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That's probably the way the Flyers looked at it, the cap space was better suited for another area considering what was behind him in Voracek, Simmonds, & Read. The Flyers bumped up a lot of their younger players who had a good first year here into increased roles with the team the following year, some worked (Voracek, Simmonds, & Read) & some didn't (Schenn & Couturier).

Timonen will likely be back on a one year deal & the Flyers will fit him in they always do, plus you don't win awards in this league for saving cap space. I rather bank on Timonen being able to handle his role again next year than Gus being thrown into a role he can't handle, there's nothing I've seen of Gus that leads me to believe he's anything more than a bottom pairing defender.

However for arguments sake let's say there is more to Gus why would throwing him into a role he isn't ready for & him getting destroyed in it help his development?
That's where we disagree. I believe Gus has top 4 potential, and should be starting to get those minutes instead of pressbox minutes.

To answer your question I'd much rather see the Flyers give Gus a top 4 opportunity over being a healthy scratch. Getting destroyed while playing hockey still has to be better for development than sitting in the pressbox.

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