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Old
12-12-2013, 02:51 PM
  #101
The Black1963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
I understand what Tonellisghost is saying.

Giordano is good...but also plays 1st line minutes for a very bad team. He might not be top material for an elite team but a very good 2nd pairing defenseman. He's not old, but 30 already and it can go quickly downhill around that age too.

Two 2nds for Regehr was just a massive overpayment, but I could see a 1st + for Giordano. Yet I hope it wont be the Kings.

If I read that a 1st/Pearson (actually another 1st) and Clifford is not nearly enough....than I also wonder what some are thinking.
Solid post.

If I can chime in on the Regehr trade, I think we paid what we did because there was a good chance that RR was going to re-sign with the kings, which he did. Now, if you still think that was a massive overpayment, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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12-12-2013, 03:43 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Solid post.

If I can chime in on the Regehr trade, I think we paid what we did because there was a good chance that RR was going to re-sign with the kings, which he did. Now, if you still think that was a massive overpayment, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
That's right. We paid for Regher similar to what Pitt paid for Murray. Yet our guy re-signed with us, is playing decently and plays a position we really need right now. We got good value all around.

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12-12-2013, 03:52 PM
  #103
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His value is closer to what tonnellisghost his saying. But his price on the open market is closer to what the Flames fans are saying.

Problem for the Flames fans is he has a NTC/NMC so he can dictate where he goes so the open market demand is much less relevant.

Problem for LA is, the Flames won't accept straight up value for their best player and captain since they aren't shopping him.

So if all three sides want to deal, first LA needs to get the cap room, then has to be willing to pay a price the Flames will accept, along with convincing the player to come. I feel the cap may be there and if the player is willing, I can see Lombardi paying a 1st and Forbort happily.

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12-12-2013, 03:54 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Solid post.

If I can chime in on the Regehr trade, I think we paid what we did because there was a good chance that RR was going to re-sign with the kings, which he did. Now, if you still think that was a massive overpayment, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
In the context of when Regehr was acquired, it was overpayment. He could have resigned, agreed, and yes he eventually did, but there was no guarantee of that at all, so in essence it really was a UFA to be Regehr for 2 2nds. The resigning was only potential, not certainty, at the time of the trade.

Keeping that in mind, a signed Giordano, who is younger and arguably better than Regehr at their current states of play (though that can be debated, but at least offensively Giordano is better), should be more valuable. Since Calgary likely would only deal Giordano in an effort to rebuild, odds are they would deal him at the deadline as well, when draft picks are the easiest to acquire. I don't think its out of line at all to assume Giordano would fetch a 1st and something else then.

And yes TG, a 1st and a 3rd is better than a 2nd and a B tier prospect, at least IMO.

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12-12-2013, 04:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
His value is closer to what tonnellisghost his saying. But his price on the open market is closer to what the Flames fans are saying.

Problem for the Flames fans is he has a NTC/NMC so he can dictate where he goes so the open market demand is much less relevant.

Problem for LA is, the Flames won't accept straight up value for their best player and captain since they aren't shopping him.

So if all three sides want to deal, first LA needs to get the cap room, then has to be willing to pay a price the Flames will accept, along with convincing the player to come. I feel the cap may be there and if the player is willing, I can see Lombardi paying a 1st and Forbort happily.
Not really, since Calgary would likely only ask Giordano to waive his NMC/NTC if someone was willing to pay the price in the first place. As you said, Calgary isn't shopping him, so unless someone meets their price tag, him waiving the NMC/NTC is a moot point.

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12-12-2013, 04:01 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Keeping that in mind, a signed Giordano, who is younger and arguably better than Regehr at their current states of play,
Uhh, it's not arguable, it's fact. Giordano is miles ahead of Regehr at this point.

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12-12-2013, 04:04 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Not really, since Calgary would likely only ask Giordano to waive his NMC/NTC if someone was willing to pay the price in the first place. As you said, Calgary isn't shopping him, so unless someone meets their price tag, him waiving the NMC/NTC is a moot point.
And...Feaster is fired.


The way most teams deal with their NMC players is they first ask the player about the team to see if he's interested, after a team shows interest. It's also very possible Calgary may know what teams are interesting to the player already.

We don't have to necessarily pony up straight away, if we're in the park, that may be enough to ask the player.

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12-12-2013, 04:11 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Paper View Post
Uhh, it's not arguable, it's fact. Giordano is miles ahead of Regehr at this point.
Refugee is only functional in a slowed down system at this point. He was awful in Calgary (once things opened up) and buffalo where things were moving quickly.

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12-12-2013, 04:11 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
In the context of when Regehr was acquired, it was overpayment. He could have resigned, agreed, and yes he eventually did, but there was no guarantee of that at all, so in essence it really was a UFA to be Regehr for 2 2nds. The resigning was only potential, not certainty, at the time of the trade.
Of course there were no guarantees that RR would re-sign, but with Sutter as the coach, RR probably wanting a final chance at the cup, it was highly likely he was going to re-sign with the kings, and therefore the extra 2nd imo.

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12-12-2013, 04:12 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
In the context of when Regehr was acquired, it was overpayment. He could have resigned, agreed, and yes he eventually did, but there was no guarantee of that at all, so in essence it really was a UFA to be Regehr for 2 2nds. The resigning was only potential, not certainty, at the time of the trade.

Keeping that in mind, a signed Giordano, who is younger and arguably better than Regehr at their current states of play (though that can be debated, but at least offensively Giordano is better), should be more valuable. Since Calgary likely would only deal Giordano in an effort to rebuild, odds are they would deal him at the deadline as well, when draft picks are the easiest to acquire. I don't think its out of line at all to assume Giordano would fetch a 1st and something else then.

And yes TG, a 1st and a 3rd is better than a 2nd and a B tier prospect, at least IMO.
Depends on several factors on each account.

Agree to slightly disagree.

a 2nd is better than a 3rd and a developed NHL ready B prospect can be worth as much as a mid/late 1st. Depends on the scouting staff, GM, team needs and draft record as well as their developmental system and so on.

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12-12-2013, 04:46 PM
  #111
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How about Ben Scrivens, Alec Martinez, and Toronto's 2nd round pick for Cammalleri?

Scrivens could be re-signed and be looked upon as a viable option in net as a starter for the Flames and Martinez is a good mobile puck moving defenseman. The Kings get a familiar face back who will be an impending UFA at the end of the season but could really help address the Kings' need for a top six LW.

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12-12-2013, 05:41 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
How about Ben Scrivens, Alec Martinez, and Toronto's 2nd round pick for Cammalleri?

Scrivens could be re-signed and be looked upon as a viable option in net as a starter for the Flames and Martinez is a good mobile puck moving defenseman. The Kings get a familiar face back who will be an impending UFA at the end of the season but could really help address the Kings' need for a top six LW.
Not sure if Cammalleri would fit under the cap, even at the deadline.
Would be ok with this though.

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12-12-2013, 05:57 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Refugee is only functional in a slowed down system at this point. He was awful in Calgary (once things opened up) and buffalo where things were moving quickly.
Interesting pov.

Of course in this slowed down system we have rebuilt, won a Cup and gone right back to the WCF's and look really good to do so again and Regehr now healthy has been a very solid add for us. Of course he like Gio have both had their fair share of games lost to injury but that is just another point.

Regehr is doing fine in a system that most teams that win the cup use and on a team that is overloaded with talented Dmen. Says allot for his game.

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12-12-2013, 05:58 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
How about Ben Scrivens, Alec Martinez, and Toronto's 2nd round pick for Cammalleri?

Scrivens could be re-signed and be looked upon as a viable option in net as a starter for the Flames and Martinez is a good mobile puck moving defenseman. The Kings get a familiar face back who will be an impending UFA at the end of the season but could really help address the Kings' need for a top six LW.
Big overpayment imo Ziggy.

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12-12-2013, 06:00 PM
  #115
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I think Lombardi got enough of Cammelleri the first time.

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12-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Big overpayment imo Ziggy.
scrivens will likely not be kept by LA anyway. So really the loss is Martinez and a 2nd. hurts losing Martinez but they will not give Cammy for free.

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12-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I think Lombardi got enough of Cammelleri the first time.
Haha true.

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12-12-2013, 06:29 PM
  #118
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Healthy Regehr is a polar opposite of the Regehr we saw at the start of the season. I'd say he's even been better than Mitchell as of late.

At the deadline if it were manageable cap wise I could see Giordano and Glencross or Cammalleri for some combination of Clifford, Lewis, Pearson and picks.

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12-12-2013, 06:51 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Toffoli would have to be included with the 1st, not that other junk.
They have absolutely no single player or the whole team combined
being worth Toffoli

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12-12-2013, 06:52 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Paper View Post
Uhh, it's not arguable, it's fact. Giordano is miles ahead of Regehr at this point.
It's arguable based on the way he's played in LA for the bulk of this season, especially the past 20 games or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
And...Feaster is fired.


The way most teams deal with their NMC players is they first ask the player about the team to see if he's interested, after a team shows interest. It's also very possible Calgary may know what teams are interesting to the player already.

We don't have to necessarily pony up straight away, if we're in the park, that may be enough to ask the player.
I think it goes much further than that:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/l...to-join-leafs/

As stated, the deal was put in place, at least in the framework of the trade, before Luongo was even approached. At that point he said no. The two teams (Toronto and Vancouver) were discussing the deal well before Luongo was approached to waive his NTC/NMC. Vancouver shopped him without asking where he'd like to go.

It's also been stated before that Gillis had a specific price in mind (which is why Luongo was never dealt while sitting on the bench all season behind Schneider) and refused to deal him for less, meaning teams had a price tag to match before negotiations could even take place.

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12-12-2013, 07:42 PM
  #121
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I can't believe this is even a discussion. Mock Flames fans all you want, but Regehr and Giordano aren't even in the same stratosphere and haven't been since 2008.

Giordano is playing like a top pairing defenceman and makes $4M.

He's our captain. If Regehr is worth two 2nds, Giordano is worth at least two 1st round picks.

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12-12-2013, 07:52 PM
  #122
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I can't believe this is even a discussion. Mock Flames fans all you want, but Regehr and Giordano aren't even in the same stratosphere and haven't been since 2008.

Giordano is playing like a top pairing defenceman *on one of the worst teams in the league* (fixed it for you )and makes $4M.

He's our captain. If Regehr is worth two 2nds, Giordano is worth at least two 1st round picks.
This, this right here is pure gold.

I am certain you will get your two firsts for Giordano. Just click your heels.

On a contender or a team that believes he would be a critical piece that would take them over the top thus facilitating the reason to overpay to get him he would likely not see as many minutes or opportunities as he is on the Flames.

Gio is very good but allot of what you are seeing from him this year is due to the fact that he is the #1 guy on a terrible team. On a good team he would see considerably less minutes/opportunities and would very much more than likely be a 2nd pairing Dman.

Gio is a very good 2nd pairing guy on a decent contract.

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Old
12-12-2013, 08:40 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
This, this right here is pure gold.

I am certain you will get your two firsts for Giordano. Just click your heels.

On a contender or a team that believes he would be a critical piece that would take them over the top thus facilitating the reason to overpay to get him he would likely not see as many minutes or opportunities as he is on the Flames.

Gio is very good but allot of what you are seeing from him this year is due to the fact that he is the #1 guy on a terrible team. On a good team he would see considerably less minutes/opportunities and would very much more than likely be a 2nd pairing Dman.

Gio is a very good 2nd pairing guy on a decent contract.
Regehr is a 3rd pairing defenceman who wasn't even signed.

Again, Giordano gets you AT LEAST two 1sts in terms of value.

It's my word against yours I guess. We'll be here all day.

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Old
12-12-2013, 08:52 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
How about Ben Scrivens, Alec Martinez, and Toronto's 2nd round pick for Cammalleri?

Scrivens could be re-signed and be looked upon as a viable option in net as a starter for the Flames and Martinez is a good mobile puck moving defenseman. The Kings get a familiar face back who will be an impending UFA at the end of the season but could really help address the Kings' need for a top six LW.
Come on now any King fan knows there is NO chance of Cammi being a King again as long as DL is here. DL did not like Mike and shipped him out as soon as the contract dispute came about and Cammi does not fit our system st all. He is the last player DL would look to bring in.

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12-12-2013, 08:55 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I think Lombardi got enough of Cammelleri the first time.
This 100% agree no chance of Cammi being a King again or at least as long as we have DL which I hope is many years.

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