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What in hockey history does NOT heal all wounds?

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Old
12-12-2013, 02:00 AM
  #101
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
I'll never get over Bobby Clarke changing his first name to Bob.
... ya, mind you, he does have quite the sense of humor which does run counter to his fuss over his name which was indeed pretty hilarious. "My names Bob. Address me as Bob".... apparently one time some reporter died and he was pretty much broke so someone asked the Flyers players to all kick in ten bucks each. When it came to Clarke, he hands over a fifty & says "here, bury five of em'".

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12-12-2013, 02:05 AM
  #102
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-Claude Lemieux, 16 years and 2 beatings later doesn't make it feel better.

-Sergei leaving us.

-2008 SCF game 5: Osgood letting in the tying goal with 30 seconds left in regulation, then losing it in 3OT.

-The entire 2009 SCF (Hossa being a ghost, refs blowing calls, Kronwall's cross bar and Fleury's last second save in game 7)

-The constant Hossa vs. Franzen debate that still goes on.

-Shane Doan slamming Johan Franzen into the boards in the 2011 Quarters.

-The way Nick Lidstrom went out (game 5 2012 Quarters).

-Losing the Parise/Suter sweepstakes.


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12-12-2013, 02:09 AM
  #103
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Ähh, either one puts down some serious personal wounds which they admit to, or admit that you're a long-sighted individual that does not know that this is a game while the world is suffering from numerous real problems. Obviously one can be both, but i cant stand people holding grudges without even admitting that's the case.

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12-12-2013, 12:52 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... ya, mind you, he does have quite the sense of humor which does run counter to his fuss over his name which was indeed pretty hilarious. "My names Bob. Address me as Bob".... apparently one time some reporter died and he was pretty much broke so someone asked the Flyers players to all kick in ten bucks each. When it came to Clarke, he hands over a fifty & says "here, bury five of em'".
HAHA, great anecdote. What was the money for, his family?

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12-12-2013, 02:44 PM
  #105
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From Slovak national team point of view -

- the fact that we were relegated all the way down after the dissolution of Czechoslovakia, while the Czechs stayed in the top division

- that the first two "best on best" Olympics (Nagano and Salt Lake) weren't truly so, as Slovakia was absolutely screwed by the format and we couldn't have our NHLers play (to see the difference, check Slovakia's W-L record last two Olympics, they can beat anyone if they're allowed to bring their best players)

And of course there were some painful losses (I guess the semifinal one vs Canada in the last Olympics stings the most - one goal game, Slovakia just dominating the play, all the momentum on Slovakia's side, Demitra just about to tie it and Luongo just barely gets the glove in the way), but in my mind a loss is a loss, nothing unfair about it like in my first two examples.

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12-12-2013, 06:01 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
For me it was when Orr left the Bruins. How Eagleson played him and how naive Orr was. It was brutal.
You know, I sort of understand how Eagleson could manipulate people. To this day whenever I see him in an old interview knowing what I know about the man and what he did he can STILL take me to a soft spot in my mind because he was around for so many great hockey moments. And for just a split second you want to say "Was he that bad of a guy?" However he was an atrocious human being and that should never be forgotten. That being said, even if my own father was my agent and he told me the Bruins - who I had played with for a decade - didn't want me anymore I wouldn't be satisfied until I heard it out of the mouth of Harry Sinden. Something Orr should have done.

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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
It's not just sour grapes, it's been documented that during the GM meetings earlier in the year that they agreed both finalists would be in town (Detroit in this case) for a few days before the Finals started to build it up. Babcock mentioned this in an interview before the series started. The NHL changed all of that last minute, apparently due to NBC's demands, and not only did they start the series two days after the WCF but with back to back games. Check out the last 10 or so finals series and you will see '09 started the quickest after the conference finals - and I believe it is the only one starting with back to back games. Now, you can say the Wings won the first two games but I watched that team all year and even then they looked gassed and gritted out those games. It appeared to completely drain Zetterberg for the rest of the series. The team went into that series with a team of walking wounded players and no Datsyuk. The schedule change completely helped the Pens, who were very healthy going in, and most people knew it.

You continue to ignore, and fail to mention, that Datsyuk (Hart finalist that year) missed the first 4 games with an injury and when he came back he was far from 100%. At the same time I've seen you make excuses for the Pens in '08 stating if Malkin played his best they would have won. Think about that...

You say the Pens were the hungrier team but it was really amazing that Detroit even took that series to 7 games considering how beat up they were going in. If both teams went in healthy I think it would have been a repeat of '08. Injuries happen but don't pretend the teams were on even ground and the Pens were simply better and hungrier. The Pens were very fortunate the Red Wings were so beat up after the WCF and the NHL did them a big favour with the weird schedule.
That happens though. The NHL doesn't usually go the Super Bowl route and wait long to hype up the series. TV demands from American and Canadian sides play a factor as well. Not to mention there had to have been something in Detroit later that week that made them play back to back. Something like a concert or whatever. Dora the Explorer was scheduled in Ottawa back in 2006 which delayed the Ott/Buf series. The better team probably should have been Ottawa but it wasn't they lost. I remember people talking about Dora the Explorer getting in the way of things then too. Not a good excuse.

No question Datsyuk missing was a big deal. And yeah I've said before that the poor performance of Malkin in the 2008 final was also a big reason why the Pens lost. He didn't register a point until Game 5. That's huge. They were down 3-1 by that time. If Datsyuk is healthy do the Red Wings win? Maybe. If Malkin plays normal do the Pens win in 2008? Perhaps. But that's the beauty of a best of 7. The better team will come to play. I do think though that there should be a lot less fuss considering the Red Wings won both games that Wings fans complain about. They were up 2-0. All they had to do in the final 5 games was NOT lose 80% of the games and they did, with Game 7 at home, something that hadn't been done in 38 years. It hurts, I get it, but Pittsburgh deserved to win.

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12-12-2013, 06:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SealsFan View Post
HAHA, great anecdote. What was the money for, his family?
No I think it was for the actual funeral though passing around the hat asking ten bucks per player seems awfully cheap, like insulting to the memory of the departed reporter. It was a story or line told at some tribute dinner or event to Bobby-Bob-Robert Whatever Clarke.... the other liner I seem to recall was from Schultz, one time some guy trying to bait him by asking if his number 8 was his IQ, Schultz replying with "no, unfortunately they wont let me wear 55".

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12-13-2013, 01:36 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by whatname View Post
-
-McSorley's illegal stick. Nothing personal against Marty though.
Are you referring to the one that cost his team a Cup Final game, or the one that caused Brashear some brain cells?

I was at the game when Normand Leveille's life changed forever. Every time I think of him, or see his name, I'm reminded of how a young mans life changed so dramatically in an instant.

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12-13-2013, 02:14 AM
  #109
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  • 1999 SCF - No explanation needed
  • 2006 ECF - going into game 7 knowing you are going to lsoe and then buying that we had a chance killed.
  • 7/1/07 - The loss of Briere and Drury wrecked our team and we are still paying for it.
  • 2011 ECQF - We should have won, the Flyers were playing their worst hockey all year and all the stars aligned but we ****ed it up.

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Old
12-13-2013, 03:06 AM
  #110
Killion
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
5.) Clarence Campbell in general, treatment of Red Storey and George Hayes in particular.
Ya, something very odious about Clarence Campbells' handling of both Red Storey's & George Hayes' situations along with a couple of other highly questionable moves with other officials, Linesman & Referees, along with his own career as a Ref and a black cloud or two left lingering over some of his own on ice actions.

Red Storey was a former football player who's career ended in the early 40's due to a knee injury. He took up officiating in the CFL, joining the NHL as a Referee in 1950. The players & Coaches, his Linesman etc all respected him, that he was fair & even (not to mention colorful as well) and let the players play. In 1959 at a game in Chicago (vs Montreal) the fans went a bit nuts & started throwing things on the ice having perceived what they felt were non-calls on what shouldve been penalties against the Habs. The next morning, Clarence Campbell, rather than backing his Official tells the media that "Storey choked". Messed up. Well, that was it right there for a proud man like Red Storey & he was gone, out of the league. Conn Smythe, all kinds of powerful people tried to intercede & get Red reinstated but Campbell was adamant and wouldnt retract his statement.

George Hayes was originally signed as Referee in 1946 but after a year or so became a Linesman, working over 1000 games over nearly 20yrs. Big guy, he was the first to actually start handing the puck to his fellow on-ice officials (classy move), whereas previously it was usually tossed or kicked along the ice. Apparently enjoyed more than just a few drinks after every game, which is just fine in my book, and I guess he was caught padding his expense account with the league there one time when he claimed he'd traveled Coach Class when in fact he was traveling Economy but so what? Talking a few dollars. Slap on the wrist & good to go.

In 1965 however Campbell declares every Ref & Linesman has to take & pass an Eye Examination. Well, Hayes refused. Whether he refused for fear of failing it or found the very notion insulting I know not, but regardless, Campbell immediately suspended Hayes for "Gross Insubordination" and he never worked another NHL game again. No idea if he even got a pension from near on 20yrs of dedicated service to the NHL. Suspended permanently. But thats not the end of it. As many as 7 times Hayes was nominated for induction into the HHOF in the Referee & Officials Category and each time it just died on the vine. Now, who do you suppose was behind that?... at anyrate, both guys are in the Hall of Fame & deservedly so.


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Old
12-13-2013, 05:31 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
From Slovak national team point of view -

- the fact that we were relegated all the way down after the dissolution of Czechoslovakia, while the Czechs stayed in the top division

- that the first two "best on best" Olympics (Nagano and Salt Lake) weren't truly so, as Slovakia was absolutely screwed by the format and we couldn't have our NHLers play (to see the difference, check Slovakia's W-L record last two Olympics, they can beat anyone if they're allowed to bring their best players)

And of course there were some painful losses (I guess the semifinal one vs Canada in the last Olympics stings the most - one goal game, Slovakia just dominating the play, all the momentum on Slovakia's side, Demitra just about to tie it and Luongo just barely gets the glove in the way), but in my mind a loss is a loss, nothing unfair about it like in my first two examples.
Exactly!
Maybe add 2004 WCh SF when referee Ron Looker didn´t negate the goal after Niedermayer´s interference on goaltender.
and game in Salt Lake against Sweden - not in sense what Sweden did, but that our coach & co. were so stupid that they didn´t even try to do it the same way.

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Old
12-13-2013, 09:07 AM
  #112
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NHL Referee History

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, something very odious about Clarence Campbells' handling of both Red Storey's & George Hayes' situations along with a couple of other highly questionable moves with other officials, Linesman & Referees, along with his own career as a Ref and a black cloud or two left lingering over some of his own on ice actions.

Red Storey was a former football player who's career ended in the early 40's due to a knee injury. He took up officiating in the CFL, joining the NHL as a Referee in 1950. The players & Coaches, his Linesman etc all respected him, that he was fair & even (not to mention colorful as well) and let the players play. In 1959 at a game in Chicago (vs Montreal) the fans went a bit nuts & started throwing things on the ice having perceived what they felt were non-calls on what shouldve been penalties against the Habs. The next morning, Clarence Campbell, rather than backing his Official tells the media that "Storey choked". Messed up. Well, that was it right there for a proud man like Red Storey & he was gone, out of the league. Conn Smythe, all kinds of powerful people tried to intercede & get Red reinstated but Campbell was adamant and wouldnt retract his statement.

George Hayes was originally signed as Referee in 1946 but after a year or so became a Linesman, working over 1000 games over nearly 20yrs. Big guy, he was the first to actually start handing the puck to his fellow on-ice officials (classy move), whereas previously it was usually tossed or kicked along the ice. Apparently enjoyed more than just a few drinks after every game, which is just fine in my book, and I guess he was caught padding his expense account with the league there one time when he claimed he'd traveled Coach Class when in fact he was traveling Economy but so what? Talking a few dollars. Slap on the wrist & good to go.

In 1965 however Campbell declares every Ref & Linesman has to take & pass an Eye Examination. Well, Hayes refused. Whether he refused for fear of failing it or found the very notion insulting I know not, but regardless, Campbell immediately suspended Hayes for "Gross Insubordination" and he never worked another NHL game again. No idea if he even got a pension from near on 20yrs of dedicated service to the NHL. Suspended permanently. But thats not the end of it. As many as 7 times Hayes was nominated for induction into the HHOF in the Referee & Officials Category and each time it just died on the vine. Now, who do you suppose was behind that?... at anyrate, both guys are in the Hall of Fame & deservedly so.
The above and previous comments and threads suggests that a history of NHL on ice officiating might be a very worthwhile project and an interesting read.

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12-13-2013, 11:18 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
That happens though. The NHL doesn't usually go the Super Bowl route and wait long to hype up the series. TV demands from American and Canadian sides play a factor as well. Not to mention there had to have been something in Detroit later that week that made them play back to back. Something like a concert or whatever. Dora the Explorer was scheduled in Ottawa back in 2006 which delayed the Ott/Buf series. The better team probably should have been Ottawa but it wasn't they lost. I remember people talking about Dora the Explorer getting in the way of things then too. Not a good excuse.
Bolded is an assumption, I don't remember any mention of another event or concert getting in the way, it was reportedly about NBC, and the NHL broke their own agreement from the GM meetings to do this.

Actually the schedule of '09 doesn't happen regularly, it was an anomaly. Since the '05 lockout the finals schedule has been fairly consistent, except for one year:

'06 - Finals started 3 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'07 - Finals started 3 days after Conference Finals ended with 2 days off after game 1 of Finals
'08 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'09 - Finals started 2 days after Conference Finals ended with back to back games and 3 in 4 days
'10 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'11 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 2 days off after game 1 of Finals
'12 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'12 - Finals started 3 days after Conference Finals ended with 2 days off after game 1 of Finals

Instead of bowing down to NBC, the NHL should have done the proper thing and worked out another arrangement and schedule. What they did hurt the product and, most importantly to me of course, killed my team. The Wings were already limping into the finals and Bettman and NBC finished them off with 3 games in 4 nights after only 2 days off. It gave the Pens a big mental and physical edge after game 3.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No question Datsyuk missing was a big deal. And yeah I've said before that the poor performance of Malkin in the 2008 final was also a big reason why the Pens lost. He didn't register a point until Game 5. That's huge. They were down 3-1 by that time. If Datsyuk is healthy do the Red Wings win? Maybe. If Malkin plays normal do the Pens win in 2008? Perhaps. But that's the beauty of a best of 7. The better team will come to play. I do think though that there should be a lot less fuss considering the Red Wings won both games that Wings fans complain about. They were up 2-0. All they had to do in the final 5 games was NOT lose 80% of the games and they did, with Game 7 at home, something that hadn't been done in 38 years. It hurts, I get it, but Pittsburgh deserved to win.
The poor performance of Fedorov and Yzerman in '95 was a big reason why they lost in the finals, as was Lindros' performance in '97. It's never that simple though, there was also the other team stopping them and imposing their will. It's not like Malkin just chose to not be at his best in '08. We often see this for star players first trip to the finals. Malkin was no different and he really struggled with Detroit's puck possession game and wall of defense. It wasn't just about Malkin, that '08 series really wasn't as close as 6 games made it seem.

Not having a healthy Datsyuk in '09 was gigantic cause he would have went head to head with Malkin while Zetterberg went against Crosby. Not only that but Lidstrom didn't finish the series against Chicago, Ericsson didn't finish the series aginst Chicago, and Rafalski, Hossa and numerous others probably shouldn't have been playing in the finals due to injuries. The better team doesn't always win, and injuries often play a part, but the NHL shouldn't have stacked the deck in one's teams favour like they did. Wings fans came up with a conspiracy theory because the schedule was so bizarre and obviously only beneffited one team.

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12-13-2013, 08:29 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Instead of bowing down to NBC, the NHL should have done the proper thing and worked out another arrangement and schedule. What they did hurt the product and, most importantly to me of course, killed my team. The Wings were already limping into the finals and Bettman and NBC finished them off with 3 games in 4 nights after only 2 days off. It gave the Pens a big mental and physical edge after game 3.
The Pens were 18-3-4 to end the season. That's incredible. This was a very hungry team willing to do whatever it took to win. How was Detroit all of the sudden the better team? They lost. Yes, they didn't have a healthy Datsyuk but the Pens didn't have a 100% Gonchar either. Heck, Ovechkin nearly ripped his knee out. I mean if we are going to go this route there are a lot of things that can be said.

And by the way, there isn't a single team that has gone into the Cup finals that wasn't limping. The Pens had to play those back to back games too you know? Besides, neither team has won the Cup since. It isn't as if the Wings were screwed over and then all of the sudden came back and won three straight Cups. Have you ever thought that they peaked in 2008 and started a slight decline in 2009? I have.


Quote:
Not having a healthy Datsyuk in '09 was gigantic cause he would have went head to head with Malkin while Zetterberg went against Crosby. Not only that but Lidstrom didn't finish the series against Chicago, Ericsson didn't finish the series aginst Chicago, and Rafalski, Hossa and numerous others probably shouldn't have been playing in the finals due to injuries. The better team doesn't always win, and injuries often play a part, but the NHL shouldn't have stacked the deck in one's teams favour like they did. Wings fans came up with a conspiracy theory because the schedule was so bizarre and obviously only beneffited one team.
You think Gonchar wouldn't have wanted to wait a little longer? Wings fans are really bitter about something that actually worked in their favour. It doesn't make sense to me. They had a 2-0 series lead which is almost 100% when it comes to Cup final history. They lost 4 out of the next 5. That isn't a team that deserves to win. Sorry.

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12-13-2013, 08:54 PM
  #115
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They had a 2-0 series lead which is almost 100% when it comes to Cup final history. They lost 4 out of the next 5. That isn't a team that deserves to win. Sorry.
Exactly. Wonder how many of these fans would have taken a do-over on the schedule when they were up 2-0? Or 3-2 for that matter? Of all the excuses for why a team lost, "the schedule maker screwed us" is by the far the worst I've heard. Completely ridiculous. How about that 1950 Cup the Wings won in Game 7 OT over the Rangers where NY didn't have any home games due to the circus? Haven't seen any Wings fans put an asterisk next to that one.

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12-13-2013, 09:22 PM
  #116
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MAB running into Roloson during the 06 finals.

2004/05 Lockout. Ottawa had just signed Hasek, was poised to make a run for the Cup, and lost the entire season to a lockout.

Muckler's sign and trade of Marian Hossa in 2005.

Melnyk for his role in Alfie's departure.

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12-14-2013, 09:32 AM
  #117
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The Pens were 18-3-4 to end the season. That's incredible. This was a very hungry team willing to do whatever it took to win. How was Detroit all of the sudden the better team? They lost. Yes, they didn't have a healthy Datsyuk but the Pens didn't have a 100% Gonchar either. Heck, Ovechkin nearly ripped his knee out. I mean if we are going to go this route there are a lot of things that can be said.
Ending the season well made the Pens a better team? Detroit had 112 points that season while Pittsburgh had 99. Wouldn't that be more important?

The Red Wings overcame a Stanley Cup hangover and missing their Hart Trophy finalist to make it game 7 of the finals, which doesn't seem to happen much anymore, so you could claim they were willing to to do whatever it took to win as well.

Gonchar played every game of the series. If he was playing injured then he only cancels out Rafalski, who was a similar player and was playing with a bad back all series. Gonchar's injury from the 2nd round does not make up for Datsyuk missing the first 4 games and coming back far from 100%. That's a very poor attempt at making the Pens appear to be as unhealthy as the Wings were. In fact, if that's all you have then I think you should just acknowledge that the Pens had a huge huge edge health wise.

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And by the way, there isn't a single team that has gone into the Cup finals that wasn't limping. The Pens had to play those back to back games too you know? Besides, neither team has won the Cup since. It isn't as if the Wings were screwed over and then all of the sudden came back and won three straight Cups. Have you ever thought that they peaked in 2008 and started a slight decline in 2009? I have.
The playoffs are always grueling but not very many teams in the current era were as beat up as Detroit was going in in '09. Everyone knew it as well. I remember Orpik being interviewed in the dressing room before the series started and he was asked about how injured and battered the Wings were and he just smiled. The Pens were very fortunate they weren't playing a healthier Wings team.

I have news for you, no one wins 3 straight Cups these days and what happened after has nothing to do with this topic. Detroit lost Hossa and they'd been to the Conference Finals in '07 and the Finals in '08 and '09 so they were bound to take a step back.

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You think Gonchar wouldn't have wanted to wait a little longer? Wings fans are really bitter about something that actually worked in their favour. It doesn't make sense to me. They had a 2-0 series lead which is almost 100% when it comes to Cup final history. They lost 4 out of the next 5. That isn't a team that deserves to win. Sorry.
Hehe, it worked in their favour? Are you serious? 3 games in 4 nights, which is unheard of for the Finals, would not benefit a team as injured riddled as Detroit was. They gritted out the first two games with their system and experience but to a man they looked gassed. It caught up with them by game 3 and gave the Pens a mental edge as well because up until then they probably didn't know they could actually play with Detroit. I watched the Wings all year and what I just stated was obvious to a lot of people who followed the team.

You can't complain too much about injuries cause they happen but the schedule just piled on to an already difficult situation. You can deny it all you want but you're wrong.

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12-14-2013, 10:34 PM
  #118
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1993: Dave Volek playoff goal against the Penguins. A pang of regret every time I think about that one.
1996: Markus Naslund traded for Alek Stojanov. Ugh.
2004: Disallowed goal by Gelinas. Tampa Bay going on to beat the Calgary Flames in Cup final.
Various injuries of Mario Lemieux.
Various injuries of Sidney Crosby.
Hockey lockouts.


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12-14-2013, 10:46 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Tackla View Post
In no particular order:

1. Winnipeg Jets moving
2. Quebec Nordiques moving
3. Hartford Whalers moving

Bring 'em all back!
Agreed. I forgot to mention those.

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12-15-2013, 01:26 AM
  #120
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1993: Dave Volek playoff goal against the Penguins. A pang of regret every time I think about that one.
1996: Markus Naslund traded for Alek Stojanov. Ugh.
2004: Disallowed goal by Gelinas. Tampa Bay going on to beat the Calgary Flames in Cup final.
Various injuries of Mario Lemieux.
Various injuries of Sidney Crosby.
Hockey lockouts.
I always chuckle when I see this called "a disallowed goal". It was never called a goal, because the puck never went into the net. People speak as though a goal was awarded and then wrongfully taken away.

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12-15-2013, 01:33 AM
  #121
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I always chuckle when I see this called "a disallowed goal". It was never called a goal, because the puck never went into the net. People speak as though a goal was awarded and then wrongfully taken away.
Nope, never came close to the netting, but in all likelihood it was past the goal line.

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12-15-2013, 07:57 AM
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Not in order:

5. Letting Saku Koivu go and making a terrible trade to acquire Scott Gomez as his replacement.
This is what I was going to post. I was generally pro-Gainey as GM but Koivu not finishing his career as a Hab is one of the worst things from my time as a Habs fan, which includes Houle's tenure. Bringing in Gomez in such a lopsided trade and Gomez then being so poor is the icing on a terrible, terrible cake.

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12-15-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I always chuckle when I see this called "a disallowed goal". It was never called a goal, because the puck never went into the net. People speak as though a goal was awarded and then wrongfully taken away.
Good point. I could have chosen my words better.

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12-15-2013, 03:15 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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Nope, never came close to the netting, but in all likelihood it was past the goal line.
Given that no goal light went on, no players including Martin Gelinas raised their arms in celebration, and no replay has ever conclusively shown that the puck crossed the line, I take the opposite stance that it was likely not in. Then there's also the debate as to whether or not Gelinas directed it in with his foot. I feel he did, although the NHL has never given consistent rulings with regards to kicked pucks, so they could have ruled either way. There's a good video on Youtube showing that a puck being even half an inch in the air can significantly alter the perception of whether or not it was across the line.

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12-15-2013, 03:24 PM
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Flames were robbed there.

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