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All-Time European Goaltenders?

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Old
12-10-2013, 11:34 PM
  #1
JFA87-66-99
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All-Time European Goaltenders?

I assume a top 10 ranking would look something like this.

1-Hasek
2-Tretiak
3-Holecek
4-Lundqvist
5-Kiprusoff
6-Dzurilla
7-Nabokov
8-Khabibulin
9-Vokoun
10-Kolzig/Irbe/Lindbergh

How do you guys view or rank some of the old-time or lesser known goalies like Bohumil Modry, Viktor Konovalenko,Nikolai Puchkov, Jiri Kralik, Pekka Lindmark, Leif Holmqvist, Vladimir Myshkin, Jarmo Valtonen, Urpo Ylonen, Goran Hogosta, or any other fit it on this list ?

I'm working on a project and I'm curious to find out about some of the unknown euro goalies at least to me. Who were some of the greatest of all-time. Thanks

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Old
12-10-2013, 11:59 PM
  #2
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I assume a top 10 ranking would look something like this.

1-Hasek
2-Tretiak
3-Holecek
4-Lundqvist
5-Kiprusoff
6-Dzurilla
7-Nabokov
8-Khabibulin
9-Vokoun
10-Kolzig/Irbe/Lindbergh

How do you guys view or rank some of the old-time or lesser known goalies like Bohumil Modry, Viktor Konovalenko,Nikolai Puchkov, Jiri Kralik, Pekka Lindmark, Leif Holmqvist, Vladimir Myshkin, Jarmo Valtonen, Urpo Ylonen, Goran Hogosta, or any other fit it on this list ?

I'm working on a project and I'm curious to find out about some of the unknown euro goalies at least to me. Who were some of the greatest of all-time. Thanks
Im an old time Canadian Goalie, and the greatest performance by a European or Russian Goaltender to me, a practiced eye, was Dzurilla. He was in the games I saw, witnessed, superior to Tretiak & Hasek. Rest of your guys dont even come close. Never, and I mean NEVER stopped fighting until the puck had crossed the red goal line and when it did? Felt awful for Dzurilla. That guy knew his angles, quick feet, excellent glove & blocker. Damn Czech system though. Brilliant defensively but Dzurilla couldnt score goals. Had the Czechs some serious creativity goin on up-front, forget Tarasov & Mother Russia. Defensively, that country is top of the heap and Dzurilla a Hero. I dig that. What a country.

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12-11-2013, 02:23 AM
  #3
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Im an old time Canadian Goalie, and the greatest performance by a European or Russian Goaltender to me, a practiced eye, was Dzurilla. He was in the games I saw, witnessed, superior to Tretiak & Hasek. Rest of your guys dont even come close. Never, and I mean NEVER stopped fighting until the puck had crossed the red goal line and when it did? Felt awful for Dzurilla. That guy knew his angles, quick feet, excellent glove & blocker. Damn Czech system though. Brilliant defensively but Dzurilla couldnt score goals. Had the Czechs some serious creativity goin on up-front, forget Tarasov & Mother Russia. Defensively, that country is top of the heap and Dzurilla a Hero. I dig that. What a country.
A little correction - that was Czechoslovakia. Czecho - Slovakia. And Dzurilla was a proud Slovak goalie.

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Old
12-11-2013, 08:25 AM
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Tretiak is No 1.


Hasek is 2nd.


Pelle Lindbergh is 3rd

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:39 AM
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dimi19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I assume a top 10 ranking would look something like this.

1-Hasek
2-Tretiak
3-Holecek
4-Lundqvist
5-Kiprusoff
6-Dzurilla
7-Nabokov
8-Khabibulin

9-Vokoun
10-Kolzig/Irbe/Lindbergh
i would flip these two. I think overall khabi was slightly better than nabi. They are both elite of course. but khabi did win the stanley cup. i don't know. just if they were both in their prime peak and i had to choose one for a must win game, i'd go with kolya rather than zhenya

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Old
12-11-2013, 12:25 PM
  #6
Bear of Bad News
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Tretiak is No 1.


Hasek is 2nd.


Pelle Lindbergh is 3rd
In your mind, why is Lindbergh third all-time among European goaltenders?

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Old
12-11-2013, 12:38 PM
  #7
Sanf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
How do you guys view or rank some of the old-time or lesser known goalies like Bohumil Modry, Viktor Konovalenko,Nikolai Puchkov, Jiri Kralik, Pekka Lindmark, Leif Holmqvist, Vladimir Myshkin, Jarmo Valtonen, Urpo Ylonen, Goran Hogosta, or any other fit it on this list ?

I'm working on a project and I'm curious to find out about some of the unknown euro goalies at least to me. Who were some of the greatest of all-time. Thanks
I´m not very good at making rankings, but I could try it later on the week.I could also try to share my thoughts of the others listed there.

Finnish goalies from that era are difficult to judge against the others on the list. They had to make miracles to give Finland a chance to win. Several times they managed to do that. On the other hand when underdog team has horrible loses its hard to judge by looking just numbers was it just team in front of goalie that collapsed or did goalie have part in it too. Consistency is hard to judge and history books remembers just the great games.

Ylönen was the goalie in Finlands first big win. In 1967 WHCs against CSSR he had over 50 saves in a 3-1 win. He is always credited to have great glove hand. In Russian Hockey Player Info (with translator) he is described "Cold-blooded, calm, brilliantly anticipates the direction of the throw, and depending on this skillfully moves the gate." His best years were probably in late 60´s.

In early 70´s Valtonen started to "challenge" him more. Challenge is probably wrong word because they actually together decided who plays against who. Valtonen seemed to be the selection against Soviets and Ylönen against other big countries when they were together in NT. Valtonen was goalie in our first win against Soviets, when Ylönen was against CSSR,Sweden, and both amateur and "pro" (78 WHC team) Canada.

Valtonen had more career ambition playing with best paying teams, when Ylönen stayed loyal to his mediocre/poor local team till mid 70´s. Valtonen had couple training camps with NHL teams and played one exhibition game with Penquins (vs. NYI 4-2 Win IIRC) +several years in Italy and Germany . Ylönen had some offers?/camp invitations, but turned those down.

Antti Leppänen was other strong international goalie and battled against those two and was starter in several tournaments in 70´s. Valtonen and Ylönen was known to have strong work ethic in trainig, and Leppänen was very much opposite of that. 6'0" 214 lbs according to eliteprospects. Described as surprisingly quick and flexible. Got nickname Octopus during the 76 Canada Cup.

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Old
12-11-2013, 12:46 PM
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thom
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Hasek Tretiak but Pelle Lindburg would have been great he was the best since Paront and was hailed by the fans they really liked him.And in Philly its tough to be liked and Pelle left this world to early

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Old
12-11-2013, 12:47 PM
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Bear of Bad News
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Are you basing Lindbergh's ranking on what he did, or what you expect that he would have done?

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12-11-2013, 12:57 PM
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I think JFA’s top 4 at this point are pretty much set in stone and won’t change for at least 12 years.
*
Hasek
Tretiak
Holecek
Lundqvist
*
Then Kipper and Dzurilla are probably next in one order.
*
Then Nabokov and Kralik.
*
After that, it gets a lot more difficult. Comparing the NHL guys isn’t so hard, but comparing the non-NHL guys is, and then slotting them in with the NHLers is tougher.
*
If I had to venture a guess, I’d go with:
*
Kolzig
Konovalenko
Vokoun
Myshkin
Lindmark
Holmqvist
Khabibulin
Irbe
Lindbergh
Modry
Ylonen
Valtonen
Hogosta
Puchkov
*
But those 14 could probably go in a lot of orders.

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Old
12-11-2013, 01:25 PM
  #11
tony d
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My top 10 would be:

1. Hasek
2. Tretiak
3. Holecek
4. Dzurilla
5) Lindmark
6) Lundqvist
7) Kiprusoff
8) Khabibulin
9) Konovalenko
10) Nabokov

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Old
12-11-2013, 01:40 PM
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Killion
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^^^ No love for Jiri Crha 70's? Doesnt even make your list. Was considered the 2nd best European Goaltender behind Tretiak for a time. Leafs were so impressed they traded away Mike Palmateer to Washington & handed Jiri the reins. Only played the one season and a bit but did have several outstanding games despite Torontos' dysfunction at that time....

Rather unjustly, theres an old thread on the Leafs Board: "Jiri Crha, Worst Goalie of All Time"?. Comparisons to the much maligned Hardy Astrom, a link to this article by David Shand, former team mate of Jiri's. And as the old saying goes, with friends like that...

http://patch.com/A-qMWv

Yet playing for the Czech National Team & in league play, outstanding.

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12-11-2013, 01:47 PM
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seventieslord
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I was just going with the list jfa posted, it seemed to be pretty exhaustive.

Although to be honest I never saw a case for crha along with these guys based on his accomplishments.

One guy I forgot was cechmanek. So overrated that he's now underrated. He'd be in that bottom group, towards the bottom of it.

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12-11-2013, 01:52 PM
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Another good one is Yuri Shundrov- Ukrainian goalkeeper for Sokol Kiev in the 80's and played well into his 40's.

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12-11-2013, 02:28 PM
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Crha was most of the 70´s in front of Kralik in CSSR goalie pecking order, but still hard to see case for Crha.

Kraliks 1985 year was great but what has bothered me is how quickly he dropped from there. After that only one full season and couple games from other in Rosenheim and they were more than happy to replace him with Karl Friesen who came back from NA.

OT. Deleted. Don´t know if that kind of speculation is allowed even though its "old news".


Last edited by Sanf: 12-11-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old
12-11-2013, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I assume a top 10 ranking would look something like this.

1-Hasek
2-Tretiak
3-Holecek
4-Lundqvist
5-Kiprusoff
6-Dzurilla
7-Nabokov
8-Khabibulin
9-Vokoun
10-Kolzig/Irbe/Lindbergh

How do you guys view or rank some of the old-time or lesser known goalies like Bohumil Modry, Viktor Konovalenko,Nikolai Puchkov, Jiri Kralik, Pekka Lindmark, Leif Holmqvist, Vladimir Myshkin, Jarmo Valtonen, Urpo Ylonen, Goran Hogosta, or any other fit it on this list ?

I'm working on a project and I'm curious to find out about some of the unknown euro goalies at least to me. Who were some of the greatest of all-time. Thanks
Kolzig is NA goalie product despite he played internationaly for Germany. I wouldn't consider him as "euro" goalie.

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Old
12-11-2013, 02:35 PM
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If the question was to me your right In not basing Pelle in the top10 just what he could have been.Based on short career no I would have not listed him that high.But listening to people who saw pelle play many thought he would be great.I saw him play and he was athletic and fans liked his outgoing nature.But my listing him is based on bias not factual info

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Old
12-11-2013, 03:52 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
Crha was most of the 70´s in front of Kralik in CSSR goalie pecking order, but still hard to see case for Crha.

Kraliks 1985 year was great but what has bothered me is how quickly he dropped from there. After that only one full season and couple games from other in Rosenheim and they were more than happy to replace him with Karl Friesen who came back from NA.

OT. Deleted. Don´t know if that kind of speculation is allowed even though its "old news".
Here's what I was able to compile and deduce about Kralik:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=603

How does Crha look?

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12-11-2013, 04:39 PM
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i would flip these two. I think overall khabi was slightly better than nabi. They are both elite of course. but khabi did win the stanley cup. i don't know. just if they were both in their prime peak and i had to choose one for a must win game, i'd go with kolya rather than zhenya
Agree with this. Khabibulin had a much bigger big game presence than Nabokov who had some poor showings with San Jose (why blame him when Thornton is around I guess?) and that game against Canada in 2010 (very Mike Liutesque).

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12-12-2013, 02:51 AM
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Seems like even Lundqvist turning mediocre the very moment his humongous pads got a slight reduction can't cure the Lundqvistophilia some people seem to suffer from. Figures.

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12-12-2013, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
In your mind, why is Lindbergh third all-time among European goaltenders?


Lindbergh was the first European to capture a Vezina...

died as a reigning Vezina winner...

and was first to bring a water bottle on ice, as far as I know

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12-12-2013, 08:18 AM
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Lindbergh was the first European to capture a Vezina...

died as a reigning Vezina winner...

and was first to bring a water bottle on ice, as far as I know
I don't know if I would put him third, since his career was so short. But he definitely deserves mention. When he died I honestly thought he was as good, if not better, than Parent had been. He had really mastered the stand-up angles goaltending style.

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12-12-2013, 12:18 PM
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Although to be honest I never saw a case for crha along with these guys based on his accomplishments.
The problem is that info on accomplishments is sparse, and pretty much limited to binary either-he-won-or-he-didn't subjective awards voting. We see in NHL awards voting that GAA and team success have major impacts on goalie perception, and it stands to reason that similar attitudes could prevail elsewhere. The awards-focused approach also undervalues consistently elite goalies compared to guys with a few standout seasons. If you're an international version of Roberto Luongo, say, you might fly completely under the radar in terms of awards and team success despite consistently elite play.

Kralik might have more votes for international all-star teams than Crha, but he never proved he could play in the NHL while Crha did. I really don't want to have an unfair North American bias, and that doesn't mean Crha is better, but at the same time it's obvious that it's way easier to impress observers during short tournaments with unknown team factors than it is to put up consistently strong numbers over a NHL career. Kralik never had the chance to see if he could do something similar over here, but nothing is apples to apples when you get into these kinds of comparisons, even for countrymen born a couple of years apart.

It still looks to me like the European goalies who never played in the NHL are often rated better here than others who did, because it's way easier to rack up accomplishments over short international tournaments and in weaker domestic leagues than to consistently dominate the NHL. Take the HOH top goalies list, for example. Of the top 8 European goalies on the aggregate list, 5 of them were born between 1942 and 1956, i.e. guys who hit their primes during the real emergence of international hockey between 1970 and 1985. But out of the 1957-1972 cohort, the group that was the spearhead of the European invasion which was to transform the goalie landscape of the NHL, there's only Hasek (who would have dominated any era) plus two other guys with even marginal voting support (Lindbergh and Irbe at #12 and #14 respectively, named on 4 lists each). Did European goalies get worse? Or did they suddenly start having to compete against a higher standard?

Then again, maybe it is fair to compare Europeans to other Europeans on a similar historical development curve to avoid the conclusion that modern goalies are always necessarily better. But then by the same logic one should maybe consider guys like Holmqvist or Konovalenko as perhaps being in turn more dominant relative to their compatriots, despite competing against a smaller talent pool. I don't really know, it just seems to me that ranking goalies based on world championship best goalie awards goes completely against everything else I believe in terms of goalie evaluation, and the more I look at it the less value I think they should hold.

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Old
12-12-2013, 02:06 PM
  #24
Sanf
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Here's what I was able to compile and deduce about Kralik:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=603

How does Crha look?
Great bio. I really admire how much work you people put on those.

Well my opinion.

Jiri Crha was two times (68,69) best goalie in European U19 championships. His Zlata Hokejka (best player) finishes playing in CSSR league
1969 no votes 1970 nv. 1971 15. 1972 26. 1973 11. 1974 15. 1975. 14. 1976 23. 1977 23. 1978 19. 1979 24.

Kralik was once participant in Euro juniors (70). Shared job with Jozef Popelár. His ZH finishes from the seasons that he played in CSSR league with Crha 1970 nv. 1972 28. 1975 nv. 1977 17. 1978 17. 1979 4.

Kraliks seasons in second division are hard to judge. Would he really had played there if he had been NT caliber goalie. In my opinion Kralik was late bloomer who peaked higher (and yes I would rank him much higher), but when they played together Kralik only in Crhas last season managed to really standout compared to him. On Kraliks side it has to mention that I remember some Czech goalie coach mentioning that Kralik was the first Czech goalie to really play the puck with his stick, and not chained to his goal.

Also IIRC Kralik was borrowed to Tesla Pardubice when they played against 4 games against NHL teams in 78. So he was tandem with Teslas regular goalie Crha. I have seen those boxscores somewhere but can´t find them now.


Last edited by Sanf: 12-12-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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12-25-2013, 09:50 AM
  #25
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Konovalenko should be around pos. 7 IMHO. He is better than Kralik and Naby...

And I don't see what Lunquist have done to be above Czech or Rus. oldtimers, like Myshkin.

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