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1976 Broad Street Bullies vs Soviet Red Army

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Old
12-12-2013, 10:03 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
Despite that, IMO Philly's play was disgusting and had no place in hockey.
Probably, and that's the reason they were my least favourite NHL team back then, but damn, it was still fun watching the damned commies getting their ***** handed to them in every way imaginable.

Obviously, watching it in hindsight, almost 40 years later, and now having a much greater appreciation for Russian hockey players, my views have changed.

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12-12-2013, 11:57 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Probably, and that's the reason they were my least favourite NHL team back then, but damn, it was still fun watching the damned commies getting their ***** handed to them in every way imaginable.

Obviously, watching it in hindsight, almost 40 years later, and now having a much greater appreciation for Russian hockey players, my views have changed.
Yeah, I suppose I can understand that sentiment to some degree.

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12-12-2013, 12:52 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by chunkylover53 View Post
Yeah Soviets were never conservative and non-intervention, even Russia today. That being said, their sports teams/hockey players got a unfair image by virtue of "being Soviets" back then.
Of course. The players were just men, some of whom (including the guy in my avatar) were, themselves, quite unhappy in the Soviet system. Western caricatures of the Soviet players as "hockey robots" (much like Soviet caricatures of westerners as "decadent pigs") and such seem absurd now, but were taken pretty seriously at the time.

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12-12-2013, 07:21 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Wow, lots of crying in this thread. CSKA lost that game mainly because they had a lot of trouble at that point with dump-and-chase hockey (both when trying to execute it, and when trying to stop it), didn't have a very strong blueline, and were terrible at faceoffs. The Flyers exploited these weaknesses and made a much more talented team look foolish. It happens.

The Flyers played dirty, yes, but they also legally forechecked and cycled the hell out of the Red Army team, denied them clean entry into the offensive zone and won a stupid percentage of 50-50 plays, including faceoffs. Focusing only on Philly's goonery (and they certainly were goonish) only serves to obscure the fact that this matchup revealed very real flaws in the old (mostly Tarasov-based) Soviet system - flaws which would not be corrected until Viktor Tikhonov overhauled Soviet hockey some years later.

There is actually quite a lot that can be learned from watching this game if people can stop being babies about the whole thing.
The main thing to be learned in this game is that it could have been a good hockey game...if the Flyers had decided to play hockey. The goon tactics of the Flyers were done mostly out of fear that they would get their ***** whipped. How the NHL allowed that to happen is a black mark on its history. Exposing another team's or person's flaws through violence is called bullying.

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12-12-2013, 07:58 PM
  #55
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What I want to know is, why did CSKA agree to play the Flyers in the first place?

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12-12-2013, 08:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by darkhorse686 View Post
What I want to know is, why did CSKA agree to play the Flyers in the first place?
Defending cup champs I believe

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12-12-2013, 09:21 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
The only thing you said that I agree with unequivocally. USSR was always an aggressive imperialist regime.

That said, and even taking note of Flyers cycling and forechecking, it's still crazy to deny they were a dirty, dirty team. I believe they should be judged from the standard of sportsmanship as well as others, and they were way below it.
Judging “sportsmanship“ as its seen today or as it was seen in 1976?
Judging by 1976 stardard it was NOT far below.
It was a different game, a much tougher and rougher game.

Just like a lot of the players from the 70s wouldnt fare well with the speed of todays game. A lot of the players today couldn‘t survive the roughness of the game back then.

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12-12-2013, 10:06 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Judging “sportsmanship“ as its seen today or as it was seen in 1976?
Judging by 1976 stardard it was NOT far below.
It was a different game, a much tougher and rougher game.

Just like a lot of the players from the 70s wouldnt fare well with the speed of todays game. A lot of the players today couldn‘t survive the roughness of the game back then.
Yep exactly. I wuold like someone to explain to me how gooning it up leads to getting out shot and out scored like that? Obviously the Flyers were playing some good hockey as well.

I always find that people really try to act like the Russians were always innocent in these games/series. Its like this with 72 especially, we hear all about the Clarke slash but for some reason no one like to talk about Mikhailov kicking people.

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12-12-2013, 11:10 PM
  #59
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Yep exactly. I wuold like someone to explain to me how gooning it up leads to getting out shot and out scored like that? Obviously the Flyers were playing some good hockey as well.

I always find that people really try to act like the Russians were always innocent in these games/series. Its like this with 72 especially, we hear all about the Clarke slash but for some reason no one like to talk about Mikhailov kicking people.
Not to mention the spitting, the Russians especially were notorious for it.

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12-13-2013, 01:54 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Judging “sportsmanship“ as its seen today or as it was seen in 1976?
Judging by 1976 stardard it was NOT far below.
It was a different game, a much tougher and rougher game.

Just like a lot of the players from the 70s wouldnt fare well with the speed of todays game. A lot of the players today couldn‘t survive the roughness of the game back then.
Hockey was dirtier in the 1970s, but not necessarily tougher.

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12-13-2013, 03:37 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Hockey was dirtier in the 1970s, but not necessarily tougher.
No offense but have you ever played in the same equipment as what the guys in the 70's played in?

Or how many players from the 60's and 70's have you met in person?
I met Lou Fontinato for the first time in 1984, he was in his early 50's. If we were to lock an over 50 year old Lou in a room with 99% of the players today, I guaran-damn-tee you Lou is the only one walking out of that room.

Getting bodychecked, slashed with sticks that were made of real wood and had the weight of baseball bats or hit with pucks in equipment barely a step up on corrugated cardboard, getting stitches on an almost daily basis, loosing teeth while barely blinking yet rarely missing any time.

My ass hockey wasn't tougher as were the men playing it. That includes all players, not just the Canadians.

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12-13-2013, 05:07 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Wow, lots of crying in this thread. CSKA lost that game mainly because they had a lot of trouble at that point with dump-and-chase hockey (both when trying to execute it, and when trying to stop it), didn't have a very strong blueline, and were terrible at faceoffs. The Flyers exploited these weaknesses and made a much more talented team look foolish. It happens.

The Flyers played dirty, yes, but they also legally forechecked and cycled the hell out of the Red Army team, denied them clean entry into the offensive zone and won a stupid percentage of 50-50 plays, including faceoffs. Focusing only on Philly's goonery (and they certainly were goonish) only serves to obscure the fact that this matchup revealed very real flaws in the old (mostly Tarasov-based) Soviet system - flaws which would not be corrected until Viktor Tikhonov overhauled Soviet hockey some years later.

There is actually quite a lot that can be learned from watching this game if people can stop being babies about the whole thing.
Even as a fan of Soviet hockey, it's hard to disagree with this. CSKA were totally outplayed from the start - and it was certainly not just by intimidation & violence. Only the 2nd period was somewhat competitive, if one's charitable. CSKA players just look so one-dimensional, robotic and sloppy; a zillion bad blind passes, totally hopeless vs. the Flyers' players in the corners, regrouping, regrouping, regrouping... and trust me, before I saw it, I REALLY wanted to believe that the game was nothing short of a scandal. But I don't like to lie to myself.

BTW, if it had been a full Soviet national team (a clearly deeper team than CSKA, I don't care what anybody says), would that have made a big difference?

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12-13-2013, 05:47 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
I always find that people really try to act like the Russians were always innocent in these games/series. Its like this with 72 especially, we hear all about the Clarke slash but for some reason no one like to talk about Mikhailov kicking people.
But Clarke's action might have turned the series in Canada's favour. It was something that was clearly planned (by John Ferguson, as the story goes), and Canada gained a clear advantage as a result, whereas I doubt that Bobrov or Kulagin said to Mikhailov: "Boris, that Gary Bergman dude is killing us, injure him by kicking".

Purely as offences, I guess they are in the same ball park.

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12-13-2013, 07:58 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Judging “sportsmanship“ as its seen today or as it was seen in 1976?
Judging by 1976 stardard it was NOT far below.
It was a different game, a much tougher and rougher game.

Just like a lot of the players from the 70s wouldnt fare well with the speed of todays game. A lot of the players today couldn‘t survive the roughness of the game back then.
Even by 70s standards the Flyers were bad and Clarke was a jerk. Don't talk to me about the standards. There were plenty of great players who did not resolve to this **** to win, even back then.

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12-13-2013, 09:15 AM
  #65
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Even by 70s standards the Flyers were bad and Clarke was a jerk. Don't talk to me about the standards. There were plenty of great players who did not resolve to this **** to win, even back then.
Exactly. None of the other NHL teams resorted to this crap. Plus there are lots of examples of good sportsmanship like Little M's tap on Tretiak near the end of game 8 after Henderson's goal, Tretiak and Dryden exchanges pleasantries at the end of the NYE game, Esposito giving the Soviets credit after game 1 in his famous speech to Canada and playing up his fall during the introductions during one of the games in Moscow.

If this tactic was so effective, why didn't the NHL choose all goons to play in the Challenge Cup and 81 Canada Cup? Because they were embarrassed by the conduct of the Flyers plain and simple. And Clarke or any other NHL'er didn't pull off any of that crap during the 79 CC or 81 CC. It was good, solid, tough hockey.

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12-13-2013, 09:29 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
But Clarke's action might have turned the series in Canada's favour. It was something that was clearly planned (by John Ferguson, as the story goes), and Canada gained a clear advantage as a result, whereas I doubt that Bobrov or Kulagin said to Mikhailov: "Boris, that Gary Bergman dude is killing us, injure him by kicking".

Purely as offences, I guess they are in the same ball park.
I have my doubts Ferguson ordered Clarke to injure Kharmalov. My guess is that Kharmalov was killing Canada, and Ferguson was suggesting Clarke do a better checking job on him. Clarke, being the despicable person he is, instead buggered up Kharmalov's leg. Could be wrong though.

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12-13-2013, 09:44 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I have my doubts Ferguson ordered Clarke to injure Kharmalov. My guess is that Kharmalov was killing Canada, and Ferguson was suggesting Clarke do a better checking job on him. Clarke, being the despicable person he is, instead buggered up Kharmalov's leg. Could be wrong though.


Kharmalov... three times...

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12-13-2013, 12:35 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I have my doubts Ferguson ordered Clarke to injure Kharmalov. My guess is that Kharmalov was killing Canada, and Ferguson was suggesting Clarke do a better checking job on him. Clarke, being the despicable person he is, instead buggered up Kharmalov's leg. Could be wrong though.
Well, years later Ferguson admitted to it, his exact quote being "I called Clarke over to the bench, looked over at Kharlamov and said I think he needs a tap on the ankle.... I didnt think twice about it. It was Us vs Them".... Clarke for years denied ("dont recall that" type dealeo) any such thing was ever said, saying only "if I didnt know how to a lay on a 2 hander I'd have never gotten out of Flin Flon".

Fact is the Canucks were beyond frustrated with the Russians, with the Refereeing & with their own play. In Game 5 they blew 3-0 and 4-1 leads, Team CCCP storming back in the 3rd with 5 goals 4 of which were scored in the last half of the period over a 10 minute span. Entering Game 6 beyond surly, expecting the worst from Referee's Kompalla & Badaar & not disappointed, receiving 31 minutes in Penalties to the Soviets 4.

Regardless, the 1st period went scoreless but early in the 2nd the Russians score, 1-0. Then within 1:23 Team Canada came flying back scoring 3 goals, the Soviets one more thereafter and that was it for scoring in the game. Ken Dryden was outstanding as was the PK line of Pete Mahovlich, Ellis & Red Berenson. Serge Savard also returned to the lineup after being out with an injury & managed to quieten things down some, likely giving Dryden more confidence as well.

2nd Period after receiving instruction from Ferguson, Clarke chased down Kharlamov & two handers his ankle breaking it. Slash heard around the World but not immediately. I remember watching it & not realizing just how serious it was, at it appeared like any number of Clarke Hissy Fits that Id seen in the series & when watching him with Philly, all bark & no bite. As in what an idiot, hope that Russkies just faking it a bit to get the extra penalty minutes.... but no, seriously inflicted damage. Kharlamov missed Game 7 but returned for Game 8, ineffective but for one play when he rang one off the crossbar in what couldve changed the outcome of the series.... personally, and I have respect for Sinden & Ferguson, I dont think those guys belonged behind the bench at all. Took them to Game 5 to figure out how to neutralize the Russian attack and thats just not savvy Coaching. Player selection questionable as well.


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12-13-2013, 12:48 PM
  #69
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Kharmalov... three times...
Sue me.

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12-13-2013, 01:02 PM
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Even by 70s standards the Flyers were bad and Clarke was a jerk. Don't talk to me about the standards. There were plenty of great players who did not resolve to this **** to win, even back then.
Ummm...the Bruins?
And like I said, the Russians weren't all innocent out there either. Spit in a hockey players face, especially an old school one and see what happens. Ever heard the expression "Don't poke the bear"?

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12-13-2013, 01:34 PM
  #71
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Even by 70s standards the Flyers were bad and Clarke was a jerk. Don't talk to me about the standards. There were plenty of great players who did not resolve to this **** to win, even back then.
Oh of course. Clarke was quite unique in that he was a terrific hockey player but no brakes in doing whatever it took to win and if that meant a little of the old Ultra-violence, Mayhem... so be it. Thats just the way it was, the culture of the sport at the elite levels. All out war. You did whatever it took to win. Playing a superior foe? Take the body & stick to them. Go after their knees like the infamous Hilliard Graves amongst countless dozens upon dozens more. Yes, very cruel, unsportsmanlike, but thats just the way it was. Violence the great equalizer.

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Ummm... Ever heard the expression "Don't poke the bear"?
During the Cold War that meant the Soviets Rhiess. In fact being called a Bear in Russia is actually a compliment.... and "Bob" Clarke didnt just "poke the bar", crazy sum***** pulls a 2 hander on them. Had that been a game in Canada or the US at that time during that era be it Jr.D/C/B/A or just about anywhere were talking full on psycho bench clearing brawl. Clarke, if anyone had gotten their hands on him?... nothing much left beyond a yellow, brown & red puddle.

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12-13-2013, 01:38 PM
  #72
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No offense but have you ever played in the same equipment as what the guys in the 70's played in?

Or how many players from the 60's and 70's have you met in person?
I met Lou Fontinato for the first time in 1984, he was in his early 50's. If we were to lock an over 50 year old Lou in a room with 99% of the players today, I guaran-damn-tee you Lou is the only one walking out of that room.

Getting bodychecked, slashed with sticks that were made of real wood and had the weight of baseball bats or hit with pucks in equipment barely a step up on corrugated cardboard, getting stitches on an almost daily basis, loosing teeth while barely blinking yet rarely missing any time.

My ass hockey wasn't tougher as were the men playing it. That includes all players, not just the Canadians.

But by that same token, today's equipment is being used as a weapon in its own right. Getting hit by flimsy 1970s elbow pad will not do the damage of a molded plastic one.
There's a reason 1970s players could survive without helmets...the game was not as dangerous. Today's players would risk death without helmets.

The 1970's had more fighting, stickwork, cheapshots, but the game was also more wide open. It did not have the same level of checking, high impact collisions nor shotblocking
Hockey of the 1970s was more brutal but less physical.
Perhaps we disagree with the semantics of 'toughness', but I don't see 1970s players being any tougher than todays.


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12-13-2013, 01:44 PM
  #73
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If Rob Zombie DOES end up making his Broadstreet Bullies movie, I hope that this game is the climax. Or at least a very central part. And they'd just have to put in "THEY'RE GOIN' HOME!"

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12-13-2013, 02:00 PM
  #74
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Ummm...the Bruins?
And like I said, the Russians weren't all innocent out there either. Spit in a hockey players face, especially an old school one and see what happens. Ever heard the expression "Don't poke the bear"?

This is what irks me.

The Soviets were no angels, but many of these accusations against the Soviets are not corroberated by video evidence. Players can be sneaky dirty, but unless you're the David Coppefield of hockey you're not tricking a video camera.
Imo, a good portion of these accusations were manufactured. Demonizing an opponent is a great motivational and 'us vs them' rallying tool.

See Ulf Sterner's 'spear' on Wayne Cashman (1972 Canada/Sweden exhibition) as a prime example.


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12-13-2013, 02:57 PM
  #75
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But by that same token, today's equipment is being used as a weapon in its own right. Getting hit by flimsy 1970s elbow pad will not do the damage of a molded plastic one.
There's a reason 1970s players could survive without helmets...the game was not as dangerous. Today's player's would risk death without helmets.

The 1970's had more fighting, stickwork, cheapshots, but the game was also more wide open. It did not have the same level of checking, high impact collisions nor shotblocking
Hockey of the 1970s was more brutal but less physical.
Perhaps we disagree with the semantics of 'toughness', but I don't see 1970s players being any tougher than todays.
Yes, good points. Orr for example used soft cap shoulder pads but not the entire piece that protected ones chest & clavicle somewhat. He removed that bit altogether, had the trainer attach the shoulder cups to his suspenders that held up his pants. Pretty flimsy arrangement huh?...

With the mandating of helmets at amateur & through Junior in the 60's guys figured the head or high shots were fair game to a certain extent. Previously dirty or cheap shots were usually low, some guys deliberately targeting the knee's with hip checks or low tucks, called Submarine Hits. Some really ugly incidences on par with todays head shots.... the art of Checking as opposed to "Hitting" was slowly being chipped away by the generations that came up wearing helmets & for a time if you did wear a lid considered gutless & deliberately targeted.

As for shot blocking, that was prevalent & expected of Defenseman. Taught, trained how to do it properly. Semi butterfly with stick across your body face turned away obviously. A slide effective as well, back to the shooter if you had the time. But you didnt just do it semi half baked with your stick over "here" your body "over there" as we see far too often. Shot hits that stick ricochets & rebounds all over the place. Shot blocking was & still is a real art, all kinds of fabulous pictures of guys like Horton or Mikita on the back check in the classic shot block position & pose. Look's of some worry on their faces.

Finally as for the "cheapshots", I have seen a rise with far more cheapshots over the past 20 years than wouldve been tolerated in the 70's. You took a cheapshot back then, a low hit, elbow, cross check, boarded a guy, ran the goalie or whatever the Ref's would call it. However if egregious the perp would immediately face the wrath of his victim (if he wasnt beyond incapacitated to respond) & or his nearest team mate & face the consequences. Rule changes, removing discretion from the Referee's, bringing in the Instigator Rule, generally just eating away at "The Code" allowing players to police themselves to a certain degree all pretty much relegated to the dustbin.

And ya, your right. No helmet out there today absolute insanity and sadly, if ever there was a case of the cure being worse than the disease (in bringing in mandatory helmet and full cage at amateur, 1/2 shields) this is it. Too late to turn back the clock but somethings gotta be done about it. Lack of respect, concussions, broken necks endemic.

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