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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

1976 Broad Street Bullies vs Soviet Red Army

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Old
12-21-2013, 01:59 AM
  #101
pbgoalie
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Nothing comparing to Don Koharski
In fairness, Koharski was just a terrible ref

ALWAYS

One of the reasons there are Polish jokes

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12-21-2013, 05:51 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Krut View Post
A fact that gets conveniently glossed over by the Russian excuse makers on this forum. That was a clear infraction that directly lead to a goal in the third game of the series that got ignored by Koharski. He was simply a ****** official overall.
That was not a clear infraction. Look at the reverse angle replay. Even if it was, it does not somehow even the bad calls and non-calls out...
Thirty seconds earlier there was no call on a clear hook by Messier, after which Canada was able to keep the puck in the Soviet zone while on the powerplay and almost scored.

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12-21-2013, 08:58 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by pbgoalie View Post
In fairness, Koharski was just a terrible ref

ALWAYS

One of the reasons there are Polish jokes
Regardless, Koharski on his worst day was still many times better than any European ref back then.
While Euro player programs and training advanced quickly in the 70's and 80's, their officials training did not, were greatly lacking and in some cases didn't even exist.
Sometimes you had Ref's a year removed from doing PeeWee games heh.

People are always wondering why a lot of us older Canadians don't take International results from the 70's and early 80's as seriously as we should.
Well, this was one of the big reasons.
Watching some officials that made Hal Gill look like Bure speedwise was a joke.

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12-22-2013, 09:52 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
That was not a clear infraction. Look at the reverse angle replay. Even if it was, it does not somehow even the bad calls and non-calls out...
There were bad calls both ways. That's the point I'm making. And to call that "not a clear infraction," and then complain about some random missed hook (there were many, many missed hooks in the 80's) is a pretty good indicator of how thick the lenses of the Russian rose goggles are for some Russian fans here.

Completely shameless excuse making. There seems to be some conspiratorial reason for nearly every Russian loss at the international level since the 70's.

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12-22-2013, 01:39 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Regardless, Koharski on his worst day was still many times better than any European ref back then.
While Euro player programs and training advanced quickly in the 70's and 80's, their officials training did not, were greatly lacking and in some cases didn't even exist.
Sometimes you had Ref's a year removed from doing PeeWee games heh.

People are always wondering why a lot of us older Canadians don't take International results from the 70's and early 80's as seriously as we should.
Well, this was one of the big reasons.
Watching some officials that made Hal Gill look like Bure speedwise was a joke.
So you are saying that all European officials were incompetent and slow and that is why biased North American officials should have always been used?


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Originally Posted by Krut View Post
There were bad calls both ways. That's the point I'm making. And to call that "not a clear infraction," and then complain about some random missed hook (there were many, many missed hooks in the 80's) is a pretty good indicator of how thick the lenses of the Russian rose goggles are for some Russian fans here.

Completely shameless excuse making. There seems to be some conspiratorial reason for nearly every Russian loss at the international level since the 70's.
Don't complain about the thickness of the "rose goggles" of other fans when you make the excuse that there were bad calls both ways in that game and series, implying that it all evened out. This is a clear example of a shameless excuse.
It is usually not hard to see what is and what is not a clear infraction when you watch a game carefully multiple times.

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12-22-2013, 03:23 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
So you are saying that all European officials were incompetent and slow and that is why biased North American officials should have always been used?



Don't complain about the thickness of the "rose goggles" of other fans when you make the excuse that there were bad calls both ways in that game and series, implying that it all evened out. This is a clear example of a shameless excuse.
It is usually not hard to see what is and what is not a clear infraction when you watch a game carefully multiple times.
Then you should have no problem admitting that the play on Bourque was a clear penalty which directly lead to a goal on Canada in game 3. Oh ya, but I forgot, there is some "angle" that you've seen that the rest of us haven't that shows it wasn't a penalty. Good grief.

And for the record, saying the officiating in that series was crap both ways is not making an excuse. Saying, as you and many other Russian posters have that Russia only lost that tournament because of officiating is the definition of an excuse.

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12-22-2013, 04:11 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Krut View Post
Then you should have no problem admitting that the play on Bourque was a clear penalty which directly lead to a goal on Canada in game 3. Oh ya, but I forgot, there is some "angle" that you've seen that the rest of us haven't that shows it wasn't a penalty. Good grief.
So it is my fault that you have not seen it?
Go see for yourself (3:01) and listen to the Canadian commentators say that Bourque fell down:




Quote:
And for the record, saying the officiating in that series was crap both ways is not making an excuse. Saying, as you and many other Russian posters have that Russia only lost that tournament because of officiating is the definition of an excuse.
By saying that the officiating was terrible both ways, when it obviously favored Canada, you are making an excuse for it; you are saying that Koharski and others were just terrible, but not biased against the Soviets.

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12-22-2013, 04:31 PM
  #108
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And the reason I can never respect the Flyers or their history is their dirty play in the 70s. Also the fact the NHL allowed them to do so in order to give expansion credibility is disgraceful as well

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12-22-2013, 05:02 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Roomtemperature View Post
And the reason I can never respect the Flyers or their history is their dirty play in the 70s. Also the fact the NHL allowed them to do so in order to give expansion credibility is disgraceful as well
Not quite following you on this one Roomtemperature. I can understand why you wouldnt like the Broad Street Bully style of play but the ice wasnt slanted by the NHL in enabling the Flyers in any way shape or form to come out on top. That was down to ownership in Snider who demanded early the team get bigger & tougher, some luck in Drafting & Trades, the hiring of Shero & his innovative philosophies & approaches to the game. Im no proponent of "Goon Hockey" and certainly didnt like a lot of what I saw, but overall, for sure I respected the organization & the players for what they accomplished.

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12-22-2013, 05:23 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
So you are saying that all European officials were incompetent and slow and that is why biased North American officials should have always been used?
Biased my ass! There were just as many times where I was shaking my head at a call against the Canadians.
If there was any bias, it was for calling a game to NHL standards where the physical part of the game is tolerated more.

I can PROVE that most Euro officials back then were too slow and incompetent to manage a game. On top of that I would bet you a weeks pay that I could find more Nationality based bias from Euro officials back then than you could find from NA officials.

You can‘t PROVE bias by the NA officials much outside of your own homerism.
I watched plenty games like Sweden vs Finland where I had no horse in the race and came away completely disgusted by the Euro officials.

NA officials were the best in the world back then by a huge margin.
That‘s a fact!


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-22-2013 at 05:29 PM.
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12-22-2013, 05:59 PM
  #111
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I can't tell if you are serious. {Mod}


Last edited by Killion: 12-22-2013 at 06:14 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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12-22-2013, 09:47 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Biased my ass! There were just as many times where I was shaking my head at a call against the Canadians.
If there was any bias, it was for calling a game to NHL standards where the physical part of the game is tolerated more.

I can PROVE that most Euro officials back then were too slow and incompetent to manage a game. On top of that I would bet you a weeks pay that I could find more Nationality based bias from Euro officials back then than you could find from NA officials.

You can‘t PROVE bias by the NA officials much outside of your own homerism.
I watched plenty games like Sweden vs Finland where I had no horse in the race and came away completely disgusted by the Euro officials.

NA officials were the best in the world back then by a huge margin.
That‘s a fact!
As a nonpartisan observer I thought the refereeing was horribly one sided.
When the 1987 Canada Cups appeared on youtube I was pumped to see Lemieux/Gretzky at their best. Unfortunately my lasting memory is of one sided refereeing.
I can't say anything about Euro refs at the time, you might be right. However 1987 was a Soviet screw job.


Last edited by Hanji: 12-22-2013 at 10:25 PM.
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Old
12-23-2013, 12:16 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
As a nonpartisan observer I thought the refereeing was horribly one sided.
When the 1987 Canada Cups appeared on youtube I was pumped to see Lemieux/Gretzky at their best. Unfortunately my lasting memory is of one sided refereeing.
I can't say anything about Euro refs at the time, you might be right. However 1987 was a Soviet screw job.
Try watching the earlier games, you're only getting part of the story. The amount of diving going on in the earlier rounds was ridiculous.
Refs were being embarrassed badly with the Russians and Czechs being the worst offenders.

So if you feel the Russians weren't getting enough calls against Canada in the Finals, you might be right but it was also a bed they helped make themselves.

Go watch the game where the Russians beat the USA 5-1 and I freakin dare you to come back here and talk about NA officials bias some more heh.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-23-2013 at 12:21 AM.
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12-23-2013, 01:43 AM
  #114
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Earlier games you say? Here is an example of what went on in one of them:



Lots of diving there...

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12-23-2013, 02:07 AM
  #115
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I saw this game several times (yes its on Hulu among other places) and even before that. I didn't think the Soviets looked intimidated at all - they just weren't gong to take anything that was against the rules, and I really can't blame them.

The Flyers came out trying to define their brand and the Soviets were having none of that - the Soviets wanted to play hockey and the Flyers wanted to beat the crap out of them.....

I don't think the Soviets had any idea of how to respond to that type of physical attack (as many NHL teams did against the Flyers).

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12-23-2013, 02:10 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Earlier games you say? Here is an example of what went on in one of them:



Lots of diving there...
That's heavy, heavy evidence...I do not think even Rhiessan can continue his line of arguing after watching that.

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12-23-2013, 08:29 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
That's heavy, heavy evidence...I do not think even Rhiessan can continue his line of arguing after watching that.
{Mod}

I don't know what which refereeing would I rather have: slow and incompetent or biased.

Canadian teams should have been more penalized simply because the IIHF rules have no tolerance for their so-called "physical play." So when Canadian fans complain about higher penalty minutes for their team, they just don't know what they are talking about.

On a somewhat related note: it blows my mind when Canadians equate Clarke's slash to the Russian spitting. As if spitting ever hurt anybody...


Last edited by Killion: 12-23-2013 at 11:13 AM. Reason: not reqd...
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12-23-2013, 08:46 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
So it is my fault that you have not seen it?
Go see for yourself (3:01) and listen to the Canadian commentators say that Bourque fell down:
He did indeed fall down.. after being hooked.

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12-23-2013, 11:24 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Try watching the earlier games, you're only getting part of the story. The amount of diving going on in the earlier rounds was ridiculous.
Refs were being embarrassed badly with the Russians and Czechs being the worst offenders.

So if you feel the Russians weren't getting enough calls against Canada in the Finals, you might be right but it was also a bed they helped make themselves.

Go watch the game where the Russians beat the USA 5-1 and I freakin dare you to come back here and talk about NA officials bias some more heh.

It wasn't the non calls. What surprised me were the calls on the Soviets. On the whole they were being penalized for infractions Canada was regularly getting away with. Canadian physicality was accepted. When the Soviets stepped up their physical game - penalty. Very nitpicky. Both teams not held to the same standard.
Just an observation.

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12-23-2013, 11:45 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
He did indeed fall down.. after being hooked.
He did, I watched it several times, he lost his edge & over skated the puck. That stickwork by the Soviet wouldntnt have sent him sprawling & coughing up the puck had he been in control (which he clearly wasnt). Seriously reaching & off balance. I wouldnt have called a penalty on that.


Last edited by Killion: 12-23-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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12-23-2013, 12:31 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Earlier games you say? Here is an example of what went on in one of them:



Lots of diving there...
Holy crap, a whole 6 minutes of select footage from the very last game of the round robin, after all the diving had already taken place.
The American ref, Mike Noeth, was an NHL linesman I believe, a borderline one at that, one that wasn't even trusted enough to work a single NHL playoff game.

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12-23-2013, 12:45 PM
  #122
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He did, I watched it several times, he lost his edge & over skated the puck. That stickwork by the Soviet wouldntnt have sent him sprawling & coughing up the puck had he been in control (which he clearly wasnt). Seriously reaching & off balance. I wouldnt have called a penalty on that.
I agree, he was going down regardless or maybe even tried to sell a call. I wouldn't have been mad if they did call it though because it created an optical illusion of a legit hook

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12-23-2013, 12:47 PM
  #123
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On a somewhat related note: it blows my mind when Canadians equate Clarke's slash to the Russian spitting. As if spitting ever hurt anybody...
No one equates it, that was never said. The kicking incident was on the same level though.
What was said was that the spitting would enrage players to the point where anything could and usually did happen. It was a tactic employed to draw penalties and you ask for what you get.
As far as spitting never hurting anyone, that's true but there is not a greater insult. I saw guys get less pissed off after being 2 handed and you quite obviously never played hockey at any kind of real competitive level if you believe spitting in someones face is no big deal.

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12-24-2013, 08:39 AM
  #124
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Being spat on is certainly an unpleasant experience (and a disgusting thing to do), but you keep mentioning it in the same breath as The Slash, which is ridiculous.

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12-24-2013, 10:11 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Holy crap, a whole 6 minutes of select footage from the very last game of the round robin, after all the diving had already taken place.
The American ref, Mike Noeth, was an NHL linesman I believe, a borderline one at that, one that wasn't even trusted enough to work a single NHL playoff game.
He was an NHL referee who also officiated in the 1984 Canada Cup. You just keep making up excuses.

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