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Rangers recall Dylan McIlrath (Reassigned 12/19)

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Old
12-17-2013, 05:57 AM
  #426
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Even if they ban fighting a guy like McIlrath will be very valuable. People for some reason tend to act like all he does is fight and that if the NHL gets rid of fighting then he's completely useless. Even disregarding everything else about his game, the hitting and nasty play around the boards/in front of the net are very valuable assets. Regular players aren't exactly intimidated by the guys fighting prowess, they're intimidated by getting pasted into the boards or beat up around the crease

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12-17-2013, 07:22 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
-Blood doping with a heart condition

-Freak accident, has happened before to plenty of other teams

-Worst one in recent memory? Marc Savard, who was a better player than Michael Sauer, may beg to differ. Regardless, Boston still found a way to win a cup.

I dont mean to be crass here, but this "oh woe as me" stuff as Ranger fans is pure garbage. This team hasn't found any sort of sustained success because of bad decisions and razor thin depth thats unable to overcome injuries.
It contributed. Most teams don't have their top prospect and a person with a good likelihood of being an all star up and die at 19. To lose two of the top 4 D men in 2 years to injury (both were real young too) is also not something that is frequent. To have all of the above?

It plays a massive role. So too does the horrendous GMing, inability to sign quality FA's with any consistency and the other poor drafting (for offense)

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12-17-2013, 07:46 AM
  #428
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Even if they ban fighting a guy like McIlrath will be very valuable. People for some reason tend to act like all he does is fight and that if the NHL gets rid of fighting then he's completely useless. Even disregarding everything else about his game, the hitting and nasty play around the boards/in front of the net are very valuable assets. Regular players aren't exactly intimidated by the guys fighting prowess, they're intimidated by getting pasted into the boards or beat up around the crease
I agree with that entirely. Mcilrath has far more to offer than just fighting.

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12-17-2013, 07:57 AM
  #429
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Hockey is a contact sport so therefore we must allow fighting? The idea that fighting is some kind of natural element of hockey is ********. College hockey players don't spontaneously combust because they're not allowed to punch each other. There's no fighting in football, and that's a way more violent sport than hockey. It's true that hockey is always going to have some struggle with concussions because of the hitting, but that's no reason to allow players to repeatedly concuss each other on purpose. All I could think watching McIlrath's fight was, "Boy, that kid's going to have scrambled eggs for brains by his late 30s." It's stupid and it's a waste.
I was watching a bit of the Pens game last night with the Leafs. Troy Brodie does the contact part of your post on Robert Bortuzzo in the corner--really rubs him out. Bortuzzo goes right after him--maybe when the NHL bans fighting they'll have to send someone like Bortuzzo to a psychologist for a little anger management?--because there was no way anyone was going to stop Mr. Bortuzzo from trying to get his pound of flesh from Mr. Bodie. That was what might be called a spontaneous flareup. The idea that the NHL should try to stop that is preposterous IMO--our own team for a good portion of this season have given a pretty good example of the entertainment value of how an emotionless team plays the game--other teams thankfully aren't blazing our path.

In any case I don't really get the point of your post. If you think college hockey is superior maybe you should watch more of that. The NHL is not college hockey. It has some college hockey players--some CHL players and some European players. It's not just one hockey environment that these players come from and gadzooks--even some of the College players and a few Europeans are more than willing to throw down if push comes to shove. And FWIW the NHL has been around a lot longer than US College hockey or even European hockey. You might keep that in mind. That the game developed in the NHL--it wasn't perfected in College hockey where they stick a full helmet/cage on top of your head and tell you to never fight (which still happens now and again by the by) and you only play on weekends.

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12-17-2013, 08:00 AM
  #430
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Fighting is a part of hockey, if people dont like it, dont watch. Seems like people want every violent part of any sport stopped, kind of ridiculous.

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12-17-2013, 08:02 AM
  #431
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It doesn't matter if it's a part of the sport.

The more they learn about CTE the more lawsuits against the nhl there are going to be.

And if you think "entertainment value to fans" is more important than a direct massive hit to the wallets of the owners... Well, just look at the nfl. They can't afford to allow people to get hit in the head anymore

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12-17-2013, 08:17 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
It doesn't matter if it's a part of the sport.

The more they learn about CTE the more lawsuits against the nhl there are going to be.

And if you think "entertainment value to fans" is more important than a direct massive hit to the wallets of the owners... Well, just look at the nfl. They can't afford to allow people to get hit in the head anymore
Who cares about entertainment, what is this The Hunger Games? Players get pissed and frustrated and then they fight, sometimes teams need a spark. Whats the big deal?

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12-17-2013, 08:18 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
It doesn't matter if it's a part of the sport.

The more they learn about CTE the more lawsuits against the nhl there are going to be.

And if you think "entertainment value to fans" is more important than a direct massive hit to the wallets of the owners... Well, just look at the nfl. They can't afford to allow people to get hit in the head anymore
these lawsuits are straight money grabs. plain and simple.

you know the risks going in. You can get hurt. Doesn't matter how, you know that you can. The injuries you suffer today can have long lasting effects on your quality of life. You make the choice to play anyway. That's on you. The fact that there are judges that are allowing these things to move forward is a sad testament to society today.

We are no longer taking responsibility for our own actions and decisions.

The fact that these guys are coming back and suing 10-15 years after their playing careers are over I think it pathetic and sad.

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12-17-2013, 08:23 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
It doesn't matter if it's a part of the sport.

The more they learn about CTE the more lawsuits against the nhl there are going to be.

And if you think "entertainment value to fans" is more important than a direct massive hit to the wallets of the owners... Well, just look at the nfl. They can't afford to allow people to get hit in the head anymore
The more likely effect if things really come to a head is that guys like Orr, Parros, Scott, Booggard who only do one thing well will disappear. They're not good players and the likelihood of them suffering those kinds of injuries are much greater because of what they have to do to survive. Guys like Lucic, Neil, Simmonds, Chara and hopefully McIlrath will continue on doing what they do. News for some people but in the 70's, 80's and 90's a lot of the players who fought frequently could play and some of them could play really well. Now there are only a few of those.

Occasionally some players lose an eye from sticks or flying pucks. There's any number of lawsuits that could be made. There's an inherent risk in playing contact/combat kinds of sports. It might just as well be SOP in the future that if you sign a contract to play in the NHL you waive your right to sue later on over injuries caused in pursuit of your dream job.

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12-17-2013, 08:26 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
these lawsuits are straight money grabs. plain and simple.

you know the risks going in. You can get hurt. Doesn't matter how, you know that you can. The injuries you suffer today can have long lasting effects on your quality of life. You make the choice to play anyway. That's on you. The fact that there are judges that are allowing these things to move forward is a sad testament to society today.

We are no longer taking responsibility for our own actions and decisions.

The fact that these guys are coming back and suing 10-15 years after their playing careers are over I think it pathetic and sad.

agreed. people are way too sensitive

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12-17-2013, 08:34 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
these lawsuits are straight money grabs. plain and simple.

you know the risks going in. You can get hurt. Doesn't matter how, you know that you can. The injuries you suffer today can have long lasting effects on your quality of life. You make the choice to play anyway. That's on you. The fact that there are judges that are allowing these things to move forward is a sad testament to society today.

We are no longer taking responsibility for our own actions and decisions.

The fact that these guys are coming back and suing 10-15 years after their playing careers are over I think it pathetic and sad.
Eh that's the point though, they really weren't informed that playing football or whatever would have the kind of impact on their lives later on that it does. Part of that is that people just plain didn't know, and the other part is that when the NFL did find out that concussions can seriously **** you up and that they were happening a LOT in the NFL, they covered it up and literally spent huge amounts of money to try to influence medical knowledge and literature to downplay the role of concussions. I think in the case of the NFL, those players really do have a good case because the NFL lied to them and tried to cover up the effects of concussions.

Players nowadays are more informed but we are really just barely breaking into a time when it's understood that playing contact sports and having repeated head trauma can severely screw you up later in life. And you still have idiots like Randy Carlyle saying **** like "players are getting hot-brain because they wear helmets these days and that's why there are concussions!" as well as refusing to diagnose their players with concussions and treat them accordingly

At any rate my point was that up until recently it was understood that yeah you could get injured playing a sport, maybe bad enough that you wouldn't be able to play at a high level, but no one was thinking that by the time you were in your 40's or 50's that you'd have significant cognitive problems that leave you unable to live a normal life, and other brain damage severe enough that it leads to suicide

edit: not to mention that I will bet you that the vast majority of young players will say "oh yeah I know the risks" without even vaguely thinking about the long term risks because they're young, at their peak physical condition and top of their game and feel indestructible and "hey it won't happen to me, I'll be fine". There's making people aware of the risks and then there's making people really understand the risks and there's a vast difference between the two.

All that said, I'm not against fighting in the NHL, and I'm not against hitting and contact sports, but the attitudes that drive me nuts are the kind where people see a NFL get drilled directly in the head/jaw by a player leading with his helmet and people insist that "that's just a good clean hit" or "well he didn't see the guy coming so he's to blame for not paying attention" instead of putting the responsibility on the guy throwing the hit to not aim for a players head and a purposeful knock out.

In the NHL it's the same BS...for some reason people can more or less agree elbowing a guy in the head is a penalty but if it's not an elbow (even if it's the upper arm just above the elbow!) then suddenly it's controversial and no way that's just a good hit see it wasn't even an elbow! **** that he still just hit a guy in the head on purpose and that's the kind of stuff that needs to stop and people need to stop making excuses for it. Hitting anyone in the head should be a penalty and automatically reviewed for a suspension.


Last edited by Levitate: 12-17-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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12-17-2013, 08:43 AM
  #437
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You can just choose not to watch it. Instead it's either your way or people are stupid. Your not a liberal. Liberals have a capacity for tolerance even if they disagree with something.
Tolerance is about accepting diversity, not accepting ignorance. There are no two sides to an issue when it comes to cases like Boogard. Fighting led to a condition where his brain was literally dying. You think there's a legitimate argument that it's not stupid and a waste that he had his life destroyed? It's a quality of life issue. The science is very clear at this point.

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I was watching a bit of the Pens game last night with the Leafs. Troy Brodie does the contact part of your post on Robert Bortuzzo in the corner--really rubs him out. Bortuzzo goes right after him--maybe when the NHL bans fighting they'll have to send someone like Bortuzzo to a psychologist for a little anger management?--because there was no way anyone was going to stop Mr. Bortuzzo from trying to get his pound of flesh from Mr. Bodie. That was what might be called a spontaneous flareup. The idea that the NHL should try to stop that is preposterous IMO--our own team for a good portion of this season have given a pretty good example of the entertainment value of how an emotionless team plays the game--other teams thankfully aren't blazing our path.

In any case I don't really get the point of your post. If you think college hockey is superior maybe you should watch more of that. The NHL is not college hockey. It has some college hockey players--some CHL players and some European players. It's not just one hockey environment that these players come from and gadzooks--even some of the College players and a few Europeans are more than willing to throw down if push comes to shove. And FWIW the NHL has been around a lot longer than US College hockey or even European hockey. You might keep that in mind. That the game developed in the NHL--it wasn't perfected in College hockey where they stick a full helmet/cage on top of your head and tell you to never fight (which still happens now and again by the by) and you only play on weekends.
Yes, clearly my point was that college hockey is superior to NHL hockey, not that it's perfectly possible for high level hockey to happen without fighting. That's why I only watch college hockey when Rangers prospects are playing. Because I like college hockey better. You totally nailed my opinion on that one.

It's a matter of changing the culture. They don't have this **** even in football. It would take a dramatic shift to expunge fighting from the game. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, or that it's not doable. If you ban it to the point where dropping the gloves earns and automatic ejection and suspension, then guys will stop doing it. The impetus is clearly there at this point it's becoming a massive legal liability issue. They are going to get hammered in court over this in the coming years.

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12-17-2013, 08:44 AM
  #438
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I am by no means highly educated on the subject outside of the occasional sportscenter story.

1. But has it been proven that the suicide rate for post NFL players is higher than the national average for men in the same demographic? I feel like adult male depression/suicidw around 40-50 is a really under reported and appreciated issue.

2. Clearly, you see some guys that are so messed up that it's obvious they suffered repeated major head trauma. But lets not pretend the concussions are the only thing in play. Who knows what else these guys (NFL players especially) were putting in their bodies in the 80s and early/mid 90s. Not to mention the harsh emotional impact of going from being on top of the world as a pro athlete (money, glory, off the field pleasures) to an afterthought, seemingly "nothing" (though that is never the case!). It's a ridiculously hard adjustment emotionally, I am sure.

To me, the "player safety issue", while a legitimate concern to an extent has been blown wildly out of proportion without knowing all the facts. Growing as a "cause" only as the lawsuits and liabilities mount. As we see quite often in the media.

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12-17-2013, 08:48 AM
  #439
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Tolerance is about accepting diversity, not accepting ignorance. There are no two sides to an issue when it comes to cases like Boogard. Fighting led to a condition where his brain was literally dying. You think there's a legitimate argument that it's not stupid and a waste that he had his life destroyed? It's a quality of life issue. The science is very clear at this point.



Yes, clearly my point was that college hockey is superior to NHL hockey, not that it's perfectly possible for high level hockey to happen without fighting. That's why I only watch college hockey when Rangers prospects are playing. Because I like college hockey better. You totally nailed my opinion on that one.

It's a matter of changing the culture. They don't have this **** even in football. It would take a dramatic shift to expunge fighting from the game. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, or that it's not doable. If you ban it to the point where dropping the gloves earns and automatic ejection and suspension, then guys will stop doing it. The impetus is clearly there at this point it's becoming a massive legal liability issue. They are going to get hammered in court over this in the coming years.
Without fighting half of these players would be driving a truck for a living. There is NOTHING wrong with that, but how does the quality of life compare to that afforded to an NHL player? What kind of advantages will they and especially their children receive that they otherwise would not have. Its an accepted risk of a life choice. A choice that often paves the way for better things for their families.

Like I am not a Dad, but if you gave me the choice of risking CTE so my kids could go to good schools and want for nothing vs struggling to get by my whole life I take that risk every day.

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12-17-2013, 08:51 AM
  #440
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I am by no means highly educated on the subject outside of the occasional sportscenter story.

1. But has it been proven that the suicide rate for post NFL players is higher than the national average for men in the same demographic? I feel like adult male depression/suicidw around 40-50 is a really under reported and appreciated issue.

2. Clearly, you see some guys that are so messed up that it's obvious they suffered repeated major head trauma. But lets not pretend the concussions are the only thing in play. Who knows what else these guys (NFL players especially) were putting in their bodies in the 80s and early/mid 90s. Not to mention the harsh emotional impact of going from being on top of the world as a pro athlete (money, glory, off the field pleasures) to an afterthought, seemingly "nothing" (though that is never the case!). It's a ridiculously hard adjustment emotionally, I am sure.

To me, the "player safety issue", while a legitimate concern to an extent has been blown wildly out of proportion without knowing all the facts. Growing as a "cause" only as the lawsuits and liabilities mount. As we see quite often in the media.
These are all good inquiries. Somebody earlier stated "the science is very clear." But it is not. Theres still a lot to learn about CTE.

First off, it cant be diagnosed until after the person effected has died. Most importantly, it effects people much differently. Somebody can take a 1,000 shots to the head and be fine, while another guy can take 100 and have CTE. The science is anything but conclusive.

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12-17-2013, 08:55 AM
  #441
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these lawsuits are straight money grabs. plain and simple.

you know the risks going in. You can get hurt. Doesn't matter how, you know that you can. The injuries you suffer today can have long lasting effects on your quality of life. You make the choice to play anyway. That's on you. The fact that there are judges that are allowing these things to move forward is a sad testament to society today.

We are no longer taking responsibility for our own actions and decisions.

The fact that these guys are coming back and suing 10-15 years after their playing careers are over I think it pathetic and sad.
That's just it. They DONT know the risks. Players 10 years ago had NO idea what CTE is and I bet a majority still don't today.

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12-17-2013, 08:58 AM
  #442
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That's just it. They DONT know the risks. Players 10 years ago had NO idea what CTE is and I bet a majority still don't today.
Ding ding ding - to call it a money grab is ignorant as all hell.

Those risks were not on the table decades ago - not to mention those guys were making peanuts compared to what athletes make now (athletes that are currently taken care of much better).

The NFL wouldnt have handed over almost $800M if it were a "money grab"

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12-17-2013, 09:00 AM
  #443
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Even if they ban fighting a guy like McIlrath will be very valuable. People for some reason tend to act like all he does is fight and that if the NHL gets rid of fighting then he's completely useless. Even disregarding everything else about his game, the hitting and nasty play around the boards/in front of the net are very valuable assets. Regular players aren't exactly intimidated by the guys fighting prowess, they're intimidated by getting pasted into the boards or beat up around the crease
I'm still not a fan of this pick...I'd have preferred Tarasenko. But, I'm rooting hard for this kid to feed me a heap of crow. One thing I noticed, which supports your point, was after he over-committed on that hit in his first game, he raced back and clobbered the guy standing next to Hank. Yeah, the goal was already scored but I can't remember the last time someone actually attempted AND succeeded in clearing the crease with a solid hit.

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12-17-2013, 09:02 AM
  #444
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These are all good inquiries. Somebody earlier stated "the science is very clear." But it is not. Theres still a lot to learn about CTE.

First off, it cant be diagnosed until after the person effected has died. Most importantly, it effects people much differently. Somebody can take a 1,000 shots to the head and be fine, while another guy can take 100 and have CTE. The science is anything but conclusive.
I believe they have recently found a way to detect it in those who are living.

But tying it to concussions is still tricky. There is a long way to go to figure all this out. Even if CTE wasent the major issue, concussions alone have a lot of things left to understand.

Right now there is essentially no treatment for concussions. That's a significant problem as well.

Crosby got concussed and he was so desperate for treatment he went to a pretend doctor who spun him around in a chair.

The accepted medical treatment is rest and time plus pain killers if they are needed. That's not a treatment at all. That's a lack of treatment.

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12-17-2013, 09:05 AM
  #445
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The top neuroscientists who study this **** for a living believe there is a clear link between contact sports like football (and probably hockey, but most of the stuff out there now is about football because the NFL basically just got busted for covering a lot of this stuff up). Even back in 2000 neuroscientists were warning the NFL that football led to higher rates of depression, memory loss, dementia and brain damage

And again, one of the big reasons there are even doubts about this stuff is that the NFL waged a campaign to significantly influence the literature about concussions and discredit scientists they didn't agree with!

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...k-brain-damage

Again, I'm not even for getting rid of fighting in the NHL, but people need to stop pretending that this isn't serious stuff and that steps that are made to make things just a bit safer for players are just a bunch of sissy pants "liberal" crap or something

e: To tie this into McIlrath, I want him to be a mean and nasty player who will fight when he needs to. I want him to crush guys with hits, but I hope he can throw clean hits and isn't nailing guys in the head all the time. And I realize that sometimes a hit to the head is going to be accidental, and that really is a risk you take, but I dont' want him or other players intentionally targeting the head. I also hope that if he's fighting that he doesn't take a lot of big knockout punches or hit his head on the ice and I hope he doesn't have to do it all the time. There are certainly risks and tradeoffs about being a pro athlete but we don't have to condone intentional attempts to scramble someone's brains

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12-17-2013, 09:17 AM
  #446
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Eh that's the point though, they really weren't informed that playing football or whatever would have the kind of impact on their lives later on that it does. Part of that is that people just plain didn't know, and the other part is that when the NFL did find out that concussions can seriously **** you up and that they were happening a LOT in the NFL, they covered it up and literally spent huge amounts of money to try to influence medical knowledge and literature to downplay the role of concussions. I think in the case of the NFL, those players really do have a good case because the NFL lied to them and tried to cover up the effects of concussions.

Players nowadays are more informed but we are really just barely breaking into a time when it's understood that playing contact sports and having repeated head trauma can severely screw you up later in life. And you still have idiots like Randy Carlyle saying **** like "players are getting hot-brain because they wear helmets these days and that's why there are concussions!" as well as refusing to diagnose their players with concussions and treat them accordingly

At any rate my point was that up until recently it was understood that yeah you could get injured playing a sport, maybe bad enough that you wouldn't be able to play at a high level, but no one was thinking that by the time you were in your 40's or 50's that you'd have significant cognitive problems that leave you unable to live a normal life, and other brain damage severe enough that it leads to suicide

edit: not to mention that I will bet you that the vast majority of young players will say "oh yeah I know the risks" without even vaguely thinking about the long term risks because they're young, at their peak physical condition and top of their game and feel indestructible and "hey it won't happen to me, I'll be fine". There's making people aware of the risks and then there's making people really understand the risks and there's a vast difference between the two.

All that said, I'm not against fighting in the NHL, and I'm not against hitting and contact sports, but the attitudes that drive me nuts are the kind where people see a NFL get drilled directly in the head/jaw by a player leading with his helmet and people insist that "that's just a good clean hit" or "well he didn't see the guy coming so he's to blame for not paying attention" instead of putting the responsibility on the guy throwing the hit to not aim for a players head and a purposeful knock out.

In the NHL it's the same BS...for some reason people can more or less agree elbowing a guy in the head is a penalty but if it's not an elbow (even if it's the upper arm just above the elbow!) then suddenly it's controversial and no way that's just a good hit see it wasn't even an elbow! **** that he still just hit a guy in the head on purpose and that's the kind of stuff that needs to stop and people need to stop making excuses for it. Hitting anyone in the head should be a penalty and automatically reviewed for a suspension.
In football, all the players from 20-30 years ago had to do was look at the players that had retired from the previous 40-50 years to know what kind of impact the sport had on their quality of life.

That goes for any walk of life where there is violent contact often.

You don't have to inform me that any sport is violent, physical and carries certain risks. Both known and unknown. I knew that growing up in the late 70's and early 90's.

The first guy that tore his knee up to the point of never being able to play again, should he have filed suit because the risks were not made known to him?

Or the guy that had multiple knee surgeries in the 80's and now needs knee replacement surgery every 10 years so he can walk.

Sports are physical and violent games. I would bet dollars to donuts that 99.9 of every professional today if provided the evidence that we know today would still participate.

What tells me that is not seeing the mass retirements from the sports that provide the most risk. There are exceptions to every rule and I commend those guys for making those decisions.

Playing a sport carries a risk of injury. There is no list of injuries that can occur.

It's an ambiguous word because the range of injuries one can suffer playing a sport are wide ranging from a sprained pinky to paralisys to death.

If that is not something you are aware of before you lace up a professional sneaker, boot, clete or skate then again, that's on you. Not the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA or any other organized league.

Again, this country has become such a litigious nation it's really not surprising that they are filing suit. I still maintain that it's pathetic and sad.

Risk of Injury is Risk of Injury. IT IS AS WIDE RANGING AS IT SOUNDS

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12-17-2013, 09:24 AM
  #447
slipknottin
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Yes sports will always carry injury risks.

But that does not mean the sanctioning body does not have to do its due diligence to make the game as safe as possible.

Just like any other job. It's the equivalent of making you work with a toxic substance and not providing gloves and a respirator.

It is in the NHLs best interest to remove head injuries from the game. They are already doing it with hitting, next they will stop the fighting

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12-17-2013, 09:26 AM
  #448
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They should just hand out automatic suspensions for takedowns (not serious...well, mostly...)

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12-17-2013, 09:26 AM
  #449
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Levitate, you said it!
Exactly my feeling. I like a good fight and a good clean hit. But I don't like that now an injurious hit has become an end in itself.
But my problem is less with fighting. I really hate the dirty hits that lead to the fights.

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12-17-2013, 09:35 AM
  #450
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The dirty hits/incidents will subside when they start handing out real suspensions. Not like the bogus 15 games they gave Thornton. He should have got 15 for the slew foot which could have caused serious damage. Who knows, maybe it did. Then he should have got the rest of the reason including playoffs for the sucker punch. I don't care that hes never been suspended before. 15 games is weak.

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