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Race to the bottom - Rebuild thread #2.

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Old
12-12-2013, 11:53 PM
  #51
Faltorvo
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Originally Posted by Hennig View Post
It's December, a lot can change in a month or three...

Step away from the bridge.
OH !you have me all wrong, we still have our 1rst, no bridge for this one.

I'm just on the same toboggan the leafs are on and we all know what those things needs to get moving .

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12-12-2013, 11:54 PM
  #52
The Newfoundlander
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Chicago.......Toews
LA.........Kopitar
Carolina....Staal

Toronto Maple Leafs.......Bozak?

This organization needs a reality check.
Exactly. I was going through it in my head and look at how strong these teams are down the middle that have won cups recently.

2013 Blackhawks - Toews, Sharp/Handzus
2012 Kings - Kopitar, M.Richards
2011 Bruins - Bergeron, Krejci
2010 Blackhawks - Toews, Bolland?
2009 Penguins - Crosby, Malkin
2008 Red Wings - Datsyuk, Zetterberg

Besides the Hawks, Every team has not one, but two centers capable of playing on the 1st line. The Leafs don't even have one center capable of playing on the first line. The Leafs defense don't compare to those teams either, and it's not even remotely close.

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12-12-2013, 11:57 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Newfoundlander View Post
Exactly. I was going through it in my head and look at how strong these teams are down the middle that have won cups recently.

2013 Blackhawks - Toews, Sharp/Handzus
2012 Kings - Kopitar, M.Richards
2011 Bruins - Bergeron, Krejci
2010 Blackhawks - Toews, Bolland?
2009 Penguins - Crosby, Malkin
2008 Red Wings - Datsyuk, Zetterberg

Besides the Hawks, Every team has not one, but two centers capable of playing on the 1st line. The Leafs don't even have one center capable of playing on the first line. The Leafs defense don't compare to those teams either, and it's not even remotely close.
The Leafs are nothing more than pretenders.

And all this pretending is preventing us from contending...

We are wasting sooooooooo much time chasing our own tail...

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12-12-2013, 11:58 PM
  #54
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The rebuilding of this franchise ended the day we traded 1 firsts + 2nd for PHIL KESSEL.



It will not begin anew until PHIL KESSEL is traded. Picks/Prospects at this point who really cares. He's a loser. He's been the catalyst of this losing franchise for 6 years now.



The rebuild begins by trading PHIL KESSEL.

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12-12-2013, 11:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by The Newfoundlander View Post
Exactly. I was going through it in my head and look at how strong these teams are down the middle that have won cups recently.

2013 Blackhawks - Toews, Sharp/Handzus
2012 Kings - Kopitar, M.Richards
2011 Bruins - Bergeron, Krejci
2010 Blackhawks - Toews, Bolland?
2009 Penguins - Crosby, Malkin
2008 Red Wings - Datsyuk, Zetterberg

Besides the Hawks, Every team has not one, but two centers capable of playing on the 1st line. The Leafs don't even have one center capable of playing on the first line. The Leafs defense don't compare to those teams either, and it's not even remotely close.
Kadri is or will be just as good as Krejci, plus we do have Bolland.

It's well known we need a better top centre, but we are very strong on the wings, so an elite centre may not be necessary.

Noone has said we're a cup team yet either, we're a young low-end playoff team that's still building, just like many of those teams were a few years ago(LA didnt have M Richards a year prior to the cup win).

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Old
12-13-2013, 12:00 AM
  #56
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The idea of tanking is foolish. Look at the team the Leafs just faced their 2 highest draft picks in the last 10 years Erik Johnson and Pieterangelo. They had one draft where they had 3 1st rounders of Eller, Cole, and Perron. Only one of those guys were in the lineup tonight. They did well to get value for Erik Johnson but the reason they are good isn't because of the glut of high 1st rounders it's because they found value with guys like Backes, Oshie, Schwartz, Berglund etc..

If you want to complain about the Leafs taking a bunch of grinders and low upside guys like Percy, Biggs, Gauthier, Ross etc.. that's perfectly fine and makes sense. There are more ways of building a team than just having 3 straight years of top 10 picks.

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12-13-2013, 12:01 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
It is a myth of needing loads of playoff experience as a team. A couple vets like Richards, Hossa, Brindamour Anderchuck, sure but a player like this can always be brought in.

Chicago missed the playoffs for years made it 1 year, won it the next year. Tampa same.

LA bounced two years in a row in the first round. Than won the cup.

Carolina won the cup coming out of the first lockout with having missed the playoff for years prior.
I don't agree with this..

Look at teams like Edmonton, NYI, Atlanta/Winnipeg, Florida etc All draft high, but still fail at having any type of success.

Obviously experience isn't everything, and skill is more vital. But it does play a part. Pittsburgh/Chicago/LA all had players with experience.

Guerin, Mitchell, Satan, Hossa, Williams, Gonchar, Fedetenko, Richards, Carter, Penner etc..

If we are on the outside looking in around the tdl, then we should look at selling some of the ufa/expendable players..

Not in December.

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Old
12-13-2013, 12:02 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
Kadri is or will be just as good as Krejci, plus we do have Bolland.

It's well known we need a better top centre, but we are very strong on the wings, so an elite centre may not be necessary.

Noone has said we're a cup team yet either, we're a young low-end playoff team that's still building, just like many of those teams were a few years ago(LA didnt have M Richards a year prior to the cup win).
This team has no heart, no leadership.

Not enough guys willing to sacrifice and impose their will on the other team.

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Old
12-13-2013, 12:03 AM
  #59
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The Leafs need to ask themselves some tough questions:

Can they win the hard and heavy way the coach seems to think is the only way if their top six is built to play a speedy offensive game?

Do they feel comfortable with Kessel as THE go to guy when matched up with all the battleship forwards leading the better teams in the league, as well as the identity of the team?

If not, can they get a guy who can slot ahead of Kessel, or even more difficult, does Kessel have to go?

Can they have three mid sized centers in Kadri, Bozak, Bolland up the middle?
Guys like Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Kadri aren't the problem. It that after them we lack high end depth.

Well Chicago has someone like Sharp or Hossa as their 6/7 most valuable player or the Bruins have someone like Eriksson or Siedenberg we have someone like Bozak or Bolland

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12-13-2013, 12:06 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
Klesla, Leclaire, Nash, Zherdev, Picard, Brule, Brassard, Voracek, Filatov

TANK TANK TANK!!!!
You chose the worst possible organization when it comes to developing high draft picks.

With that being said, not all high picks are homeruns and some may even bust. Chicago's draft record isn't flawless with some notables being; Cam Barker(3rd/04), Jack Skille(7th/05) and Kyle Beach(11th/08). The draft is really the only way you can really put down a strong foundation for a team. Look at all the teams that have won the cup recently, Their cores are home-grown and and yet people wonder why the Leafs haven't been successful.

You don't even need high picks to build a core.

Look at St.Louis for example. David Backes(62nd/03) , T.J Oshie(24TH/05), Jaden Schwartz(14th/2010), Alex Pietrangelo(4th/2008) etc, the list goes on on and the results speak for themselves.

All the top teams build the foundation through the draft instead of attempting to building it with other teams garbage and throw aways like the Leafs do.

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12-13-2013, 12:08 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Guys like Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Kadri aren't the problem. It that after them we lack high end depth.

Well Chicago has someone like Sharp or Hossa as their 6/7 most valuable player or the Bruins have someone like Eriksson or Siedenberg we have someone like Bozak or Bolland
Negative.

The problem is that we don't have guys better than Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, and Kadri. Sorry but those are not players that are going to lead you anywhere. They are all soft as butter bed wetters who won't play an all-round game.

This team needs a number one centerman and a legitimate number one defenceman, and also a power forward to take some heat off Kadri.

It isn't debatable. That's just how it is.

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12-13-2013, 12:10 AM
  #62
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Keep the core.

Trade the secondary pieces in Lupul, Raymond, McClement, Franson, etc. It might cause some short-term pain but these players aren't long term building blocks and if being a playoff bubble team is the best we have I'm willing to accept some short-term pain for a potentially better future.

Ask yourself how much we miss Antropov, Poni, Hagman, Moore, White, Kaberle and how little we missed them. The players above are just the new version of them and regularly overrated because they play for the Leafs who are a mediocre to even bad team (if we factor in how weak the East is).

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12-13-2013, 12:10 AM
  #63
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I don't agree with this..

Look at teams like Edmonton, NYI, Atlanta/Winnipeg, Florida etc All draft high, but still fail at having any type of success.

Obviously experience isn't everything, and skill is more vital. But it does play a part. Pittsburgh/Chicago/LA all had players with experience.

Guerin, Mitchell, Satan, Hossa, Williams, Gonchar, Fedetenko, Richards, Carter, Penner etc..

If we are on the outside looking in around the tdl, then we should look at selling some of the ufa/expendable players..

Not in December.
You are also listing a bunch of teams that are not spending even close to the cap.

EDM,NYI,Flo combined are about 54m effn Million under the cap.

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12-13-2013, 12:12 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
Then you build around this core, not destroy it entirely.

This is the logic i'm getting from some of you, it's better to destroy this core and trade everyone away and hope we tank hard enough in the right years and get the perfect players(which look at edmonton, that really hasnt happend there).

Or we could try and trade(or get some from FA)for the two pieces were missing. Which is another top 4 d-man and a top centre.

I dont see a huge flaw in our wingers, JVR is a great compliment to Kessel, Kadri and Lupul make a great 2nd line and overall the depth there is fantastic. Up the middle we have a great but small 2nd, 3rd and 4th line C.

it's just the #1C that is really hurting us.
I think we need a shake up of the core itself.

The Kings rebuild wasn't going that well up until 2010-11. They were a playoff team but a one and done outfit an couple of years in a row.

What was necessary was getting rid of Simmonds, Johnson, B. Schenn and getting some more of the ingredients they were missing in Carter and Richards.

There's some pieces here that belong here, but there are also core pieces that may need to be swapped out to bring this team to life. For me, Kessel, JVR, Rielly, Bernier and maybe Gardiner yes. Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf not necessarily. Bozak, Reimer definitely not.

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Old
12-13-2013, 12:13 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Guys like Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Kadri aren't the problem. It that after them we lack high end depth.

Well Chicago has someone like Sharp or Hossa as their 6/7 most valuable player or the Bruins have someone like Eriksson or Siedenberg we have someone like Bozak or Bolland
The list of 4 tho, I worry about heart,will, ability to impose their game on a consistent.

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Old
12-13-2013, 12:14 AM
  #66
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Leaf Homers: Don't want to rebuild through the draft.

Leaf Homers: Don't want to trade anyone off team that isn't a 4th liner or 7th D-Man.


Leaf Homers: Want more of the Same.





For all the talk about NYI/EDM/CBJ - I think Leaf Homers really need to wake up and start looking at the team they have assembled through their 10 years of retooling and ask themselves: "Do we deserve better then this"

There is no miracle cure for this organization. Had we done things correctly 6 years ago we would be in a much better position. Its never too late.


ITS NEVER TOO LATE TO ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG. ITS NEVER TOO LATE TO REBUILD.

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12-13-2013, 12:14 AM
  #67
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You chose the worst possible organization when it comes to developing high draft picks.

With that being said, not all high picks are homeruns and some may even bust. Chicago's draft record isn't flawless with some notables being; Cam Barker(3rd/04), Jack Skille(7th/05) and Kyle Beach(11th/08). The draft is really the only way you can really put down a strong foundation for a team. Look at all the teams that have won the cup recently, Their cores are home-grown and and yet people wonder why the Leafs haven't been successful.

You don't even need high picks to build a core.

Look at St.Louis for example. David Backes(62nd/03) , T.J Oshie(24TH/05), Jaden Schwartz(14th/2010), Alex Pietrangelo(4th/2008) etc, the list goes on on and the results speak for themselves.

All the top teams build the foundation through the draft instead of attempting to building it with other teams garbage and throw aways like the Leafs do.
The last point is the one I just made above they don't need to tank in order to improve the team. There's actually a decent core of players on this team. Injuries, lack of good depth on the blueline and a poor philosophy from the coach is contributing to the problems we see now.

I wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying you can't be successful with what the Leafs have done.

Bernier 10th pick overall
Kessel 5th pick overall
Van Riemsdyk 2nd overall
Lupul 7th overall
Kadri 7th overall
Phaneuf 9th overall

That right there isn't a bad core and when you look at the assets it took to acquire that group I don't think the cost outweighs the gain.

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Old
12-13-2013, 12:15 AM
  #68
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There's some pieces here that belong here, but there are also core pieces that may need to be swapped out to bring this team to life. For me, Kessel, JVR, Rielly, Bernier and maybe Gardiner yes. Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf not necessarily. Bozak, Reimer definitely not.
Bozak and Reimer are definitely gone after the season IMO.

we are still a building team keep in mind, only making our first playoff appearance, so we're obviously going to still have some holes.

Bozak, Reimer, Franson are all expendable in the offseason IMO, so package them toghether to get something of use for this team, after that, if we still need a shakeup, trade away a more core piece like Lupul.

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12-13-2013, 12:16 AM
  #69
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I don't agree with this..

Look at teams like Edmonton, NYI, Atlanta/Winnipeg, Florida etc All draft high, but still fail at having any type of success.

Obviously experience isn't everything, and skill is more vital. But it does play a part. Pittsburgh/Chicago/LA all had players with experience.
Los Angeles, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Chicago were all garbage teams that drafted their way to success. You just need good hockey people in place that wasn't the case in Edmonton, NYI, Atlanta and Florida.

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12-13-2013, 12:17 AM
  #70
RayzorIsDull
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You are also listing a bunch of teams that are not spending even close to the cap.

EDM,NYI,Flo combined are about 54m effn Million under the cap.
How about Washington? Bad for so long a lot of high picks and not really closer to a cup winner. I am not even convinced that team is better than the Leafs and the Caps have spent to the cap.

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12-13-2013, 12:19 AM
  #71
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Los Angeles, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Chicago were all garbage teams that drafted their way to success. You just need good hockey people in place that wasn't the case in Edmonton, NYI, Atlanta and Florida.
Well that and once you have identified that you have a good core, you spend some money.

EDM,NYI,FLO add up to 54 million under the cap.

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12-13-2013, 12:19 AM
  #72
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Los Angeles, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Chicago were all garbage teams that drafted their way to success. You just need good hockey people in place that wasn't the case in Edmonton, NYI, Atlanta and Florida.
Los Angeles made key trades on their way to success. M Richards and Carter were huge in the playoffs.

Boston is example of a team that relied on trades(rask) and free agency(chara) to get success, with depth coming from later draft picks.

we have a few key or soon to be key pieces that have come from the draft(Reimer, kadri, Rielly, trades for top picks like JVR etc.)

It's very possible to do, we need some draft picks to start going our way, but we could pull off an SJ or LA and trade for our #1C, it's just a matter of figuring out who.

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12-13-2013, 12:24 AM
  #73
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You are also listing a bunch of teams that are not spending even close to the cap.

EDM,NYI,Flo combined are about 54m effn Million under the cap.
Ok... drop Clarkson & Liles and we're just about on par with cap space with each of those teams.. all it takes is a couple bad contracts, like the leafs seem so fond on giving..

I'm not saying everyone should be untouchable..

Guys like

Bozak
Clarkson (I wish)
Raymond
Franson
Lupul
One of the goalies

can all be shipped off if we continue this play through till March. Phaneuf can be added to that list if contract talk isn't going well.

We keep

Kessel
Rielly
Gardiner
JVR
Kadri
Bernier/Reimer

and to a lesser extent

McClement
Kulemin
Bolland
Gunnar

I think the 10 players above is a solid core to build around, but the last we need to be doing is lose for draft picks.

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Old
12-13-2013, 12:55 AM
  #74
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I don't know what I'd like us to do honestly. I like a lot of pieces we have, but for whatever reason they aren't leading to a winning and strong team.

Not sure I'd want to blow it all up, though the top pick next year is pretty tempting . JVR, Kessel, the goalies, Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, etc.

Just want to see the team be good, how we get to that point is beyond me. So I'll cheer, sigh, and wonder where we're going to end up. This is the worst part of the schedule really, whether we'll continue to just keep losing or stabilize into a wild card spot or just outside the playoffs remains to be seen.

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12-13-2013, 01:40 AM
  #75
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another year another rebuild

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