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Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
12-19-2013, 08:47 AM
  #101
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
So Stastny's domestic and international record impresses you, but Maltsev's and Petrov's records indicate that "something was lacking".

Hey, I agree that Stastny's CSSR league and international records are not bad for a young player, but no need to overdo it - especially when you're casting doubts (and I still don't know what you're talking about there) on quite frankly far better domestic and international careers.
On their own, no they don't but given the fact that he entered the NHL and finished 6th in scoring and was able to keep up that elite offense, it indicates strongly that he would have done well, dido for Forsberg.

age matters as well when looking at resumes and players accomplishments in order to weigh their importance.

Every player has their unique case and circumstances that we need to make decisions on, not all players from Europe translate to greatness in the NHL as we have often seen.

when they do come over and do extremely well, shouldn't they be given some consideration of doubt, like the WW2 missing years?

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12-19-2013, 09:01 AM
  #102
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I'm having a difficult time placing Alex Delvecchio in this round. I think as of Now, My top 4 will be.
Francis
Ullman
Keon
?

As always, things can change.

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12-19-2013, 10:55 AM
  #103
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Joe Malone 1915-16 Season

Interesting to see Joe Malone start the season at LW with Tommy Smith playing center for the Bulldogs. At LW scored one goal - Bulldogs 5, Wanderers 8. few game détails although the teams seemed to enjoy very little prep time before the season started:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...1476%2C6402064

Available issues of the Gazette have serious quality issues.

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12-19-2013, 11:40 AM
  #104
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Joe Malone 1916-17 Season

Season started with Joe Malone back at center. Wanderers 2, Bulldogs 6. Malone scored twice:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...1410%2C1180080

Jan 3, 1917. Canadiens 4, Bulldogs 2. Game storey is rather clear that the difference was Lalonde outplaying Malone at center:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...2195%2C1960989

Jan 10, 1917 Senators 4, Bulldogs 5. Glimpse at a Nighbor / Malone meatch-up. Few details but Nighbor scored twice to one for Joe Malone:


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...1970%2C2615432

After this game the Bulldogs defense and goaltending deteriorated for the rest of the first half of the season

January 13, 1917 Bulldogs 3, Wanderers 12. All NHA games Under one headline:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=790%2C2966133

Jan 27, 1917 Bulldogs 2 Senators 7, Malone scored the Bulldogs two goals but the game story indicates that Frank Nighbor dominated. Reference is made to the Bulldogs using a triple defense.

Will look at the second half of the season tomorrow. Just a little note or a teaser.

Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor tied for the NHA goal scoring lead but the Bulldogs efforts in the final game of the season raised some controversy. Bulldogs 1 Senators 16. Nighbor was 5 goals down going into the game. Not the best quality but the reader may decide:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=1609%2C928460

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12-19-2013, 12:10 PM
  #105
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VoxPop : Does it make sense to have Fedorov out of the Top-4 this round ? At the moment, I have him on the outside looking in (still top-8 though) so I wonder if I'm not missing something...

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12-19-2013, 12:21 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Goulet didn't play on Stastny's line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Michel Goulet played mainly with Dale Hunter.
My mistake. They played together on the PP, for what that's worth...

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Main drawback is that Vs2 and VsX are benchmarks, more specifically offensive benchmarks. Like other benchmarks - 10/20/30/40/50 goals in a season, 200 or 500 career goals, etc they tend to be arbitrary, fashionable or flavour of the times influenced.

They are interesting, offer certain perspectives but like other benchmarks do not offer anything close to a complete picture.
No single statistic offers a complete picture. VsX and Vs2 offer a better picture than any other single statisticI have seen , however.

They are also specifically NOT arbitrary like the number of goals in a season or career, so I have no idea what you are talking about there.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bill Cowley compared to other players this round or other rounds has a major obstacle. His lack of defensive ability or interest was exposed during the 1943-44 and 1944-45 NHL seasons. See the following links:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=16

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=31

An established NHL center should have had a better defensive game.
Bill Cowley was weak defensively, but I can't believe you think that Cowley was more at fault for the Bruins' letting in a boatload of goals during the war, than the fact that they lost Frank Brimsek and replaced him with scrubs. They also lost most of their defensive core.

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12-19-2013, 12:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
VoxPop : Does it make sense to have Fedorov out of the Top-4 this round ? At the moment, I have him on the outside looking in (still top-8 though) so I wonder if I'm not missing something...
Of course it makes sense. We really don't have to pack our list with as many 80s and 90s players as possible! Fedorov is still the only player available who only finished top 3 in All-Star voting once (though there's a good chance he would have picked up more votes in 1996 if he played C the full season).

Bentley and Cowley are just so much better than Fedorov offensively. And Ullman and Lach are still a step up from him offensively, while also having strong defensively games. All of those 4 have significantly better All-Star records than Fedorov. Those 4 are definitely going to be in my top 5 (remember we are adding 5 this round), and right now, I'm probably going to have Nels Stewart join them.


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12-19-2013, 12:28 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
I'm having a difficult time placing Alex Delvecchio in this round. I think as of Now, My top 4 will be.
Francis
Ullman
Keon
?

As always, things can change.
Man, ranking Keon over Bentley or Cowley would be like ranking Jonathan Toews over Evgeni Malkin because he's better defensively.

Yes, the difference between Keon and Cowley/Bentley in terms of offense is that large.

Forget VsX and any other remotely complicated statistical system. These are the top 10 scoring finishes of these guys:

Bentley: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5
Cowley: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 (war years removed. Also finished 4, 7 during the 2 bad war years).
Keon: 9, 10

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12-19-2013, 12:34 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Of course it makes sense. We really don't have to pack our list with as many 70s, 80s, and 90s players as possible! Fedorov is still the only player available who only finished top 3 in All-Star voting once (though there's a good chance he would have picked up more votes in 1996 if he played C the full season).

Bentley and Cowley are just so much better than Fedorov offensively. And Ullman and Lach are still a step up from him offensively, while also having strong defensively games. All of those 4 have significantly better All-Star records than Fedorov. Those 4 are definitely going to be in my top 5 (remember we are adding 5 this round), and right now, I'm probably going to have Nels Stewart join them.
Essentially the names I have ahead of Feds, so I'm glad to see I'm not a complete anomaly in that regards.

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12-19-2013, 12:48 PM
  #110
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I don't get it.
I remember you questioning the domestic European records of players in the Soviet Union or Czechoslovakia with a great career, but Peter Stastny who looks good at best somehow impresses you.
every player and their stats have to be taken into some kind of context, ie age, and if we have other samples, ie high level and NHL then we have a more clear picture of that player.

for the Russina players, that i believe you are referencing, they had low scoring totals against the top teams and high ones against extremely weak ones.

we can never have definitive answers but sometimes the context can point to a direction of possibilities and the likelihood of that possibility as well.

Anton didn't do nearly as well as Peter in the NHL and Marion was in his peak years when all 3 where in the Czech league.

Seriously does anyone take either Statsny over Peter for their careers?

Peter adapted very quickly and well to NHL hockey and it's highly likely he would have done quite well at 20 onwards given the other information we know about him, and the NHL at that time.

It's no more of a stretch than many people undoubtedly gave Schmidt earlier is it?

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12-19-2013, 12:53 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
So Stastny's domestic and international record impresses you, but Maltsev's and Petrov's records indicate that "something was lacking".

Hey, I agree that Stastny's CSSR league and international records are not bad for a young player, but no need to overdo it - especially when you're casting doubts (and I still don't know what you're talking about there) on quite frankly far better domestic and international careers.
Well, you got him there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
I'm having a difficult time placing Alex Delvecchio in this round. I think as of Now, My top 4 will be.
Francis
Ullman
Keon
?

As always, things can change.
Can you explain Francis over Ullman?

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Man, ranking Keon over Bentley or Cowley would be like ranking Jonathan Toews over Evgeni Malkin because he's better defensively.

Yes, the difference between Keon and Cowley/Bentley in terms of offense is that large.

Forget VsX and any other remotely complicated statistical system. These are the top 10 scoring finishes of these guys:

Bentley: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5
Cowley: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 (war years removed. Also finished 4, 7 during the 2 bad war years).
Keon: 9, 10
But Bentley couldn't take over a game, as Ted said. How he knows that, I don't know.

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12-19-2013, 12:54 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
I'm having a difficult time placing Alex Delvecchio in this round. I think as of Now, My top 4 will be.
Francis
Ullman
Keon
?

As always, things can change.
Just wondering if you have Keon over Feds and if so what's the case?

I just don't see it although Ronny Franchise is a legit top 4 for me, was just too good for too long and it's not era helped at all, despite his lack of true eliteness.

Ullman and Francis look quite similar actually.

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12-19-2013, 12:59 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Essentially the names I have ahead of Feds, so I'm glad to see I'm not a complete anomaly in that regards.
I honestly don't see what makes Feds any better than Abel. They both have similarly short period of dominant regular season performance. Abel has a much better All-Star record, though it's possible he was Howe and Lindsay boosted (despite generally being considered better than them for the first 2 years they were together - Abel was a much older player). More or less the same Hart records. And both were dominant in the playoffs outside the period of their regular season domination.

I'd rank the Red Wings centers:

Ullman
(gap)
Abel/Fedorov
(gap)
Delvecchio

And for what it's worth, I used to have Ullman in the same tier as Abel/Fedorov - that is before looking at things more closely during Round 2 of this project.

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12-19-2013, 01:00 PM
  #114
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Just wondering if you have Keon over Feds and if so what's the case?

I just don't see it although Ronny Franchise is a legit top 4 for me, was just too good for too long and it's not era helped at all, despite his lack of true eliteness.

Ullman and Francis look quite similar actually.
Are we already at the point where you're an auto-vote for everyone who peaked after 1980?

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12-19-2013, 01:07 PM
  #115
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VoxPop : Does it make sense to have Fedorov out of the Top-4 this round ? At the moment, I have him on the outside looking in (still top-8 though) so I wonder if I'm not missing something...
It doesn't make sense if one adds up all the metrics and weighs them but some will no doubt.

I mean if Sid was left off of 2 ballots last round there is no reason why any player is an automatic in any round is there?

The only thing feds lacks is consistent elite offense and even part of that can be excused in the context of the system and the way Scotty used Feds as well.

He had an excellent age 33 and 34 seasons when the offensive shackles were unleashed and defensively he is still elite.

Now that Teeder is gone does anyone match Feds in the playoff department either?

Or in the elite 2 way season department?

His pitfalls, even if one takes them to an extreme, surely don't weigh him down enough with the above 2 high points in this round do they?

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12-19-2013, 01:10 PM
  #116
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On the Other Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
My mistake. They played together on the PP, for what that's worth...



No single statistic offers a complete picture. VsX and Vs2 offer a better picture than any other single statisticI have seen , however.

They are also specifically NOT arbitrary like the number of goals in a season or career, so I have no idea what you are talking about there.



Bill Cowley was weak defensively, but I can't believe you think that Cowley was more at fault for the Bruins' letting in a boatload of goals during the war, than the fact that they lost Frank Brimsek and replaced him with scrubs. They also lost most of their defensive core.
X makes it arbitrary as to inclusion or exclusion.

Bill Cowley. On the other hand no other team was left a double Hart Trophy winner in a position to control the game at center playing the same alleged weak opposition that Ted Kennedy, Elmer Lach faced.

The performance of Paul Bibeault, playing goal for Boston and Toronto Those years goes against your claim.Bibeault played for Montreal in 1942-43:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...bibeapa01.html

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12-19-2013, 01:13 PM
  #117
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Are we already at the point where you're an auto-vote for everyone who peaked after 1980?
your charater assinsation is getting old ehre, I judege each player on their merrits and the context they perfomed in.

just because others think the NHL was static, at least it seems that way in the voting patterns, doesn't mean everyone has to tow the ATD line does it?

While we are on the topic boys many Canadian boys were killed WW2 that weekend the potential hockey pool?

Surely it's next to impossible to say that the pool of talent in 06 up to 67 was as strong as it could have been right

context matters and quite simply to ignore the contribution fom the US and Europe post 80ish and beyond has very little merit.

Or does anyone think Canada slipped and the other nations caught up?

If you disagree with Francis strong points, and I pointed out his weak one as well, let's discuss but enough of the "he loves everything recent stuff" it's getting old and it's inaccurate as well.

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12-19-2013, 01:21 PM
  #118
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Of course it makes sense. We really don't have to pack our list with as many 80s and 90s players as possible! Fedorov is still the only player available who only finished top 3 in All-Star voting once (though there's a good chance he would have picked up more votes in 1996 if he played C the full season).

Bentley and Cowley are just so much better than Fedorov offensively. And Ullman and Lach are still a step up from him offensively, while also having strong defensively games. All of those 4 have significantly better All-Star records than Fedorov. Those 4 are definitely going to be in my top 5 (remember we are adding 5 this round), and right now, I'm probably going to have Nels Stewart join them.
Are all star records a really good indication though between a 6 and 24 team league and the emergence of 3 excellent non Canadian centers in the 90's compared to an all Canadian league and some war years as well?

I mean in a 6 team league there are 12 top 6 centers compared to close to 50 in a 24 team one, surely it's much more difficult to post all star seasons for one group than the other one right?

Some of the guys mentioned were good defensively but Feds was elite and does anyone in this round have a playoff resume like Feds and how big is that gap?

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12-19-2013, 01:25 PM
  #119
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your charater assinsation is getting old ehre, I judege each player on their merrits and the context they perfomed in.

just because others think the NHL was static, at least it seems that way in the voting patterns, doesn't mean everyone has to tow the ATD line does it?

While we are on the topic boys many Canadian boys were killed WW2 that weekend the potential hockey pool?

Surely it's next to impossible to say that the pool of talent in 06 up to 67 was as strong as it could have been right

context matters and quite simply to ignore the contribution fom the US and Europe post 80ish and beyond has very little merit.

Or does anyone think Canada slipped and the other nations caught up?

If you disagree with Francis strong points, and I pointed out his weak one as well, let's discuss but enough of the "he loves everything recent stuff" it's getting old and it's inaccurate as well.
You are forgetting that your voting record from the defenseman project is public knowledge, and at some point (fairly early) in the project, you did start voting every post-1980 player over every pre-1980 player.

And now you seem to doing the old "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" in favor of every modern player who comes up.

Anyway, I'll stop calling you out for what I see as your modern bias if you stop calling everyone who disagrees with you "slaves of the ATD" or however you word it. Deal?

Edit: I mean, you are correct that we can't just take top 10 finishes and All-Star records and compare them across eras apples-to-apples, but IMO, you take the argument to an extreme.

I mean, Abel easily has a better AS and top 10 record than Fedorov, but I said I see them as close to equals


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12-19-2013, 01:59 PM
  #120
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Regarding play style and coaching : many players, including some of those I have ahead of Fedorov, played a defensive game as well.

Besides, we can actually make a point that one of Feds biggest advantage could actually be explained by the coaching he had. I'm not getting in that territory, but its possible.

I do have doubts regarding Ullman being a clear tier above Feds though. And I'm definitely not on the same page as everyone regarding Stastny. Whether its because of successful eye test from when I was still quite young or just because I tend to respect rivals.

Speaking of which, do any of you think that having played fora defunct franchise can be a detriment? (In the lore... Not here. But lore certainly affects the current process). That part isn't really Stastny related either... In fact its probably more about Stewart.

Last thing : is it possible to avoid all reference to "Canadian boy"... Especially towards voters who don't quite fit the description ?

This post-scriptum is, by the way, devoid of political connotations.

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12-19-2013, 02:21 PM
  #121
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You are forgetting that your voting record from the defenseman project is public knowledge, and at some point (fairly early) in the project, you did start voting every post-1980 player over every pre-1980 player.
I'm fully aware it's public knowledge and the top 60 Dman was stacked in favour of earlier guys to begin with as my original lists didn't include enough of the older guys and when i inquired how many the answer was not enough"

That being said the emergence of non Canadian elite defense-man post 80ish makes for a difference in the talent pool, something which I wee you didn't address in your comment back.

I'm sure it was a time constraint issue.

Quote:
And now you seem to doing the old "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" in favor of every modern player who comes up.
guilty, I like to look at every player from as many angles as possible, we just have more information with newer guys but we should what, ignore it?

the Canadian to Canadian guideline is the one constant in the league, expansion has happened slowly enough over time to compensate for some of the difference perhaps but then again there is that variance thing which is alot more likely to happen in a larger league than a smaller one.

Quote:
Anyway, I'll stop calling you out for what I see as your modern bias if you stop calling everyone who disagrees with you "slaves of the ATD" or however you word it. Deal?
No deal, i like being the contrarian here anyways and Killion doesn't do enough of it IMO. Besides players should be judged on their merits, IMO more consideration needs to be given to context and not the old standby that the NHL hasn't really changed that much, which seems to be the current state.

Feds played in a fully integrated NHL, Abel and Ullman didn't we have to account for that somehow right?

Truth be told that's just a guess because every time I ask for a ball park of what criteria people are using the silence is deafening.

Did I say people were slaves to the ATD? There seems to be a large groupthink or consensus, much akin to reputation voting for all star team posts seasons,I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it's an element here and a large one.

Quote:
Edit: I mean, you are correct that we can't just take top 10 finishes and All-Star records and compare them across eras apples-to-apples, but IMO, you take the argument to an extreme.
How is a Canadian to Canadian apples to apples the extreme?

Quote:
I mean, Abel easily has a better AS and top 10 record than Fedorov, but I said I see them as close to equals

Does that account for the edge in playoff play and defensive play that Feds has or feds absolute peak (Hart)?

we can agree to disagree but I will do more analysis of Apps/Ullman/Abel when I have more time.


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12-19-2013, 02:33 PM
  #122
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Abel won a Hart too, you know...

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12-19-2013, 02:37 PM
  #123
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Well, you got him there.



Can you explain Francis over Ullman?



But Bentley couldn't take over a game, as Ted said. How he knows that, I don't know.
I don't have Francis over Ullman. It's just a list of 3 of the players that I have currently in My top 4.

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12-19-2013, 02:41 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Just wondering if you have Keon over Feds and if so what's the case?

I just don't see it although Ronny Franchise is a legit top 4 for me, was just too good for too long and it's not era helped at all, despite his lack of true eliteness.

Ullman and Francis look quite similar actually.
I think Francis gets short changed here because He was never a flashy player and even though He had 549 Goals, He never had 32 Goals in a season. Francis made His money by passing and playing 2 way hockey. He was also a well respected leader in the league.

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12-19-2013, 02:48 PM
  #125
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Abel won a Hart too, you know...
Sure but is his Hart more impressive than Feds Hart?

IMO it's not but I'll do a more detailed look at all 3 Detroit centers later on this weekend if my work schedule permits.

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