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How expendable is Vladimir Sobotka to the Blues?

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Old
12-17-2013, 08:29 PM
  #26
Robb_K
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Wrong thread.


Last edited by Robb_K: 12-17-2013 at 09:47 PM.
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12-17-2013, 08:32 PM
  #27
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Wrong thread.


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Old
12-17-2013, 08:32 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
1. He is small, especially for a 3rd/4th line player. You don't need to look any further than the series with LA. It helps to have your bottom two lines loaded up with big guys. I don't dislike Sobotka at all and I have no complaints about his effort or physical game, but he can't make up for his stature.
For starters, you absolutely do need to look further than the L.A. series. For one thing, Sobotka played his role (differently than present day I might add) well, and in addition, 6 games doesn't, and shouldn't tell you **** about any player, Sobotka especially. His size isn't nearly the hindrance you're claiming it is, you don't need to look any further than his play in traffic and his prowess in the dot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
2. The team has a plethora of players like Sobotka. The off season moves made him expendable. Specifically, bringing in Morrow and Lapierre. Veteran bottom six players with playoff experience/success.
This team doesn't have a plethora of players like Sobotka, and I'm extremely confused as to how you've arrived at this conclusion. Sobotka is a centerman, a position we lack depth in. He also is, by far, our best faceoff man, something we've historically struggled with. He's also perhaps the most versatile player on the team and can occupy any spot in the lineup and at least provide stellar defensive play. In some roles, he can ignite a line. Acquiring Lapierre allowed Sobotka to be moved up and play more productive minutes while bringing a bunch of things Lapierre couldn't on a third or second line. Morrow? Seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
3. Sobotka is an attractive piece of a deadline deal. To acquire that legitimate scorer or top defenseman everyone desires of course requires a high draft pick or prospect, but a player like Sobotka usually goes the other way because the other team needs to take on some salary and likes to get a player into their line up that can contribute. Sobotka has a reasonable contract at $1.3 million and is a hard working player that would be a good example for the type of team that would be a seller.
Again, I'm totally confused by you bringing up the idea of acquiring a top defenseman. We have, at this moment, 3 D-man in the top 30 in scoring. Our first pairing is among the best in the game. Anyway, even if we made a move for an "elite scorer" or a productive 2C, Sobotka gets pushed down the lineup, not out altogether. Watch the game tonight against the Sharks and realize just how thin at the center position this team really is. Your reasons for moving him (reasonable production, great contract) detail exactly why this team should keep him.

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Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
I think what it comes down to is his size works against him for the role he plays (a player can get away with it if he's a scorer that produces in the top six but Sobotka doesn't have that offensive production) and as mentioned, the off season moves kind of shoves Sobotka out the door. Morrow and Lapierre were brought in for that role during the playoffs.

Who is with me on this line of thinking?
It's funny then that he's so ridiculously effective at any number or roles with his size working against him. He protects the puck as well as Steen does while being undersized, he provides grit, helps us exit the zone, gains the o-zone and creates some havoc from the sideboards, and is an asset on the cycle. He looked quick and comfortable centering Schwartz and Tarasenko-if we would have had Berglund as the 3c (instead of out), it would have been fine.

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Old
12-17-2013, 08:39 PM
  #29
SteenMachine
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I really want to know which team is giving up 1st line scorers hoping to land "expendable" players and late picks.

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12-17-2013, 08:41 PM
  #30
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Good posts Robb. You should join the rest of us over in the GDT.

It's the one with the "Post-game thread" tag in front of it.

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12-17-2013, 08:43 PM
  #31
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Look at that dedication by Robb, refusing to give up on the game by way of posting in the PGT, and instead just creating his own GDT.

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Old
12-17-2013, 08:44 PM
  #32
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true blues fan <3

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Old
12-17-2013, 08:45 PM
  #33
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Hahaha

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Old
12-17-2013, 08:47 PM
  #34
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As everyone has said, he isn't even remotely expendable. His value to the Blues is significantly higher than what he would return in trade. Now if it is a situation where we're about to get Bäckström and the Capitals say we want X, Y & Sobotka then that is different, but even then I imagine that Armstrong would be trying to talk them int taking our 1st or whatever else instead.

He is very cheap for what he provides, even when he gets his new deal, probably $2.5m-$3m, he'll still be cheap for what he provides. The fact he can play centre, he can move up the line up (particularly on LW) and be a catalyst and that he is happy to play whatever role we need from him are all massive.

Nobody ever suggests he has anything close to the offensive upside of Schwartz or Tarasenko, but you need a lot of different types of player to be able to succeed. If Sobotka was available then there is no doubt that Armstrong would have 29 other GM's on the phone about him, which is exactly why you don't consider moving him.

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12-17-2013, 09:36 PM
  #35
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I think JamieG should have to write with a very dull pencil 1000 times...

I will not suggest trading Sobotka ever again.

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12-17-2013, 09:42 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteenMachine View Post
I really want to know which team is giving up 1st line scorers hoping to land "expendable" players and late picks.
A lot of teams. You do realize that I'm talking about rental type players, usually impending free agents that non playoff teams dump and contenders like St. Louis acquire to get them over the top in the playoffs.

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12-17-2013, 09:45 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
A lot of teams. You do realize that I'm talking about rental type players, usually impending free agents that non playoff teams dump and contenders like St. Louis acquire to get them over the top in the playoffs.
What trades for rentals have involved a player like Sobotka going the other way?

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12-17-2013, 09:51 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
Good posts Robb. You should join the rest of us over in the GDT.

It's the one with the "Post-game thread" tag in front of it.
Thanks! I know what The GDT is. I was so incensed that so many people didn't appreciate Sobotka's value, that I thought I'd come over gere just to make a short comment. But, I saw on my streaming, that the next period was going to start. It started, and I forgot which thread I was on. I must have spent the rest of the game on this thread. I'm 67 years old, and my short-term memory is shot. There are even way too many of my posts on this thread to erase them. Bah! Humbug!!!

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Old
12-17-2013, 09:54 PM
  #39
JamieG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alklha View Post
As everyone has said, he isn't even remotely expendable. His value to the Blues is significantly higher than what he would return in trade. Now if it is a situation where we're about to get Bäckström and the Capitals say we want X, Y & Sobotka then that is different, but even then I imagine that Armstrong would be trying to talk them int taking our 1st or whatever else instead.

He is very cheap for what he provides, even when he gets his new deal, probably $2.5m-$3m, he'll still be cheap for what he provides. The fact he can play centre, he can move up the line up (particularly on LW) and be a catalyst and that he is happy to play whatever role we need from him are all massive.

Nobody ever suggests he has anything close to the offensive upside of Schwartz or Tarasenko, but you need a lot of different types of player to be able to succeed. If Sobotka was available then there is no doubt that Armstrong would have 29 other GM's on the phone about him, which is exactly why you don't consider moving him.

I think you're over-valuing Sobotka's importance to other GM's. The fact is he's a 3rd line player who is under-sized. Sure he works hard, but you just described a lot of players in the NHL.

I also think some of you (okay, a lot of you) are dismissing size way too quickly. Or at least size in the "role" player position.

I remember the Detroit Red Wings before they won back in the 90s. Their bottom six forwards were littered with guys like Tim Taylor, Bob Errey and Greg Johnson (all hard working players in their day). They couldn't win those tough grinding playoff series until they got bigger in those positions.

I also think a lot of you are dismissing Derek Roy way too fast. And remember, Sobotka wasn't even considered a center by most people before the season.

As for Morrow and Lapierre, mark my words, Morrow will make his contribution in the playoffs. That's why the Blues acquired him. And Lapierre is one of those annoying pests in a playoff series that draws crucial penalties and gives the team power plays.

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Old
12-17-2013, 10:00 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
What trades for rentals have involved a player like Sobotka going the other way?
If I spent the time to research history, I could come up with a long list, but off the top of my list, a trade like Marian Hossa to the Pens for a package that included Colby Armstrong comes to mind.

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12-17-2013, 10:01 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
I remember the Detroit Red Wings before they won back in the 90s. Their bottom six forwards were littered with guys like Tim Taylor, Bob Errey and Greg Johnson (all hard working players in their day). They couldn't win those tough grinding playoff series until they got bigger in those positions.
So, what about guys like Maltby, Draper, and Gilchrist?

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Old
12-17-2013, 10:16 PM
  #42
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You do realize that Roy plays less physical than a ten year old right. If you want size and grit Sobotka is near the last guy you get rid of. Thank god you aren't the GM we would be out if contention in ten seconds.

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Old
12-17-2013, 10:18 PM
  #43
rumrokh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
If I spent the time to research history, I could come up with a long list, but off the top of my list, a trade like Marian Hossa to the Pens for a package that included Colby Armstrong comes to mind.
Okay, let's go with that one. For one, there's no way that trade doesn't get done without Armstrong. They didn't use Armstrong to get Hossa, he was just part of a package in which he was, in theory, not the most valuable piece.
You're also talking about a team that already had Crosby and Malkin. They also got Dupuis back in that trade. The Blues, on the other hand, are not in a position to deal away their depth unless they can hang onto the player or unless they can wave around serious cash in free agency. I am ALL for making the Blues more top-heavy, but please point out a player like Hossa who is available for a third liner, picks, and unspectacular prospects.

I'm not against moving Sobotka or any other player if it improves the team. But you have yet to make a case for how Sobotka is a meaningful trade chip to acquire a serious difference maker a-la Hossa. This thread might as well be a trade proposal that says "Sobotka+??? to Unknown Team for Unknown Elite Rental" How else can people react?

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12-17-2013, 10:23 PM
  #44
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So is anyone on the OP's side? I'll call this a board bonding moment, so at least there's that.

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Old
12-17-2013, 10:38 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
Okay, let's go with that one. For one, there's no way that trade doesn't get done without Armstrong. They didn't use Armstrong to get Hossa, he was just part of a package in which he was, in theory, not the most valuable piece.
You're also talking about a team that already had Crosby and Malkin. They also got Dupuis back in that trade. The Blues, on the other hand, are not in a position to deal away their depth unless they can hang onto the player or unless they can wave around serious cash in free agency. I am ALL for making the Blues more top-heavy, but please point out a player like Hossa who is available for a third liner, picks, and unspectacular prospects.

I'm not against moving Sobotka or any other player if it improves the team. But you have yet to make a case for how Sobotka is a meaningful trade chip to acquire a serious difference maker a-la Hossa. This thread might as well be a trade proposal that says "Sobotka+??? to Unknown Team for Unknown Elite Rental" How else can people react?
Exactly this! Sobotka is still a relative secret known much more by The Blues than by other teams. He is thus more valuable to The Blues than to other teams trading for him. They need him for his versatility (plays any forward spot, on the PK, faceoff expert, energy catalyst) and he can also play on Lines 2-4. Unless a team wants to grossly overpay for him (not likely), it would be better to keep him, and throw in less valuable players as extras in a trade for a centre upgrade, than to lose him and keep a lesser player (who'll be valued the same by the other team).

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Old
12-18-2013, 12:10 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenSeal View Post
The difference is simple: Sobotka is proven. Schwartz is not. Schwartz could bust next year and become the next Chris Stewart, no one knows. Sobotka has played long enough to show he's reliable and consistant and if anything else, those two things are what makes up the foundation of not just good trade value, but are the hallmarks of the kind of player that helps win championships. You don't just trade players like Boat away.
Schwartz could bust next year? haha.. Thanks for the laugh

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Old
12-18-2013, 09:47 AM
  #47
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Sobotka does so many things well, why would you move him? I wouldn't.

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12-18-2013, 09:55 AM
  #48
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Old
12-18-2013, 11:33 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
A lot of teams. You do realize that I'm talking about rental type players, usually impending free agents that non playoff teams dump and contenders like St. Louis acquire to get them over the top in the playoffs.
No not "a lot" which ones, because if you can't give me a plausible trade then the argument is way too vague. How expendable a player is has a lot to do with what's coming back. If it's a dynamic 2-way forward with a left handed shot that's good at faceoffs... it's a totally different conversation than something like Moulson or Vanek.

If it's a one dimensional scorer, then giving him up is totally irrelevant, we could get around doing it and be better off for it. His cost-effectiveness as a player with that salary is massive compared to someone like Stewart or Leopold or Berglund. Who could probably have a better return because of the size argument. While unloading some extra salary and relieving the budget of a potential raise on an RFA who hasn't earned one consistently.

He's a fully dedicated player who is willing to push himself beyond his limits, if Schwartz can do the same and we somehow gain a 3rd player of that calibre with a higher skill set than Sobotka and Schwartz we look a lot better off throughout the team's depth than simply trying to cash in on him.

The expendables at this point are the guys who need everyone else on the ice to compensate for them. Sobotka is quite the opposite.

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Old
12-18-2013, 11:56 AM
  #50
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Huh, I made a post about Andy McDonald's thoughts on Sobotka, partly in jest, and I don't see it now. I don't believe it would have been deleted, but maybe it didn't actually transmit?

Not going to bother to repost it, but bottom line is I think the unanimous response about Sobotka's value to the Blue is correct.

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