HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

McKenzie on Expansion: Vegas and possibly beyond 32?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-15-2014, 01:21 PM
  #676
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beepeearr View Post
I think Houston would work better as a relocated team, namely Phoenix, I know quite a few ex Aero fans who follow Phoenix because of Tippets former ties to the Aeros. I'm not sure how well they would support a new franchise though.

I was absolutely shocked to see video this morning of 40 people going nuts over the USA-Russia game at a bar... in New Orleans. I'm not saying they should get an NHL team, but amongst every city with a major pro sports franchise already, I'd have New Orleans DMFL on the list of hockey interest. I felt like four people in the entire city cared about hockey. I was off by at least 10x.

Hockey will "work" almost anywhere under the right conditions. Tossing out markets that need absolutely everything to go perfectly (like New Orleans) and you have plenty of viable markets available for relocation after expanding to 36.

(For the record, I don't totally advocate 36 teams, Las Vegas, etc. But if PHX rebounds and has 16,000 a night and competitive revenues; the Islanders problems are solved by their Brooklyn move, and the NASH/CBJ lease modifications see their revenues increase, then sign me up).

KevFu is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 02:05 PM
  #677
MNNumbers
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,183
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I was absolutely shocked to see video this morning of 40 people going nuts over the USA-Russia game at a bar... in New Orleans. I'm not saying they should get an NHL team, but amongst every city with a major pro sports franchise already, I'd have New Orleans DMFL on the list of hockey interest. I felt like four people in the entire city cared about hockey. I was off by at least 10x.

Hockey will "work" almost anywhere under the right conditions. Tossing out markets that need absolutely everything to go perfectly (like New Orleans) and you have plenty of viable markets available for relocation after expanding to 36.

(For the record, I don't totally advocate 36 teams, Las Vegas, etc. But if PHX rebounds and has 16,000 a night and competitive revenues; the Islanders problems are solved by their Brooklyn move, and the NASH/CBJ lease modifications see their revenues increase, then sign me up).
Kev,

Sorry. It's the Olympics and it's Russia. You would find 40 Americans in Guam going nuts. It has nothing to do with hockey.

And, realistically, given the revenues available to Toronto Maple Leafs and other organizations, there are not viable markets available.

To wit:
KC - not viable because the city doesn't want hockey. Arena does better without it.
Houston = we don't know about the arena.
Markham - arena is a very precarious thing. Latest from city council there was not encouraging to the builder because he wants the city to bear more risk than they want.
Vegas - ??
Portland - Maybe
Milwaukee - Not the hockey part of Wisconsin. Likely a ?? market, and you need a different arena that the one they have

Hey, to be truthful, I love the Seattle fans here, and there is lots of positive wind blowing to the NW these days, but I am not sure about that place either.

In my mind, the only MARKET, that is for sure viable right now, long term, is Quebec.

Which is not to say that they are the best candidate at all.

Now, if you changed the whole financial structure of the NHL, so there was lots more revenue sharing, then, yes, lots of places become more possible. But that is hard to do, because you keep running into the problem of the Torontos, Montreals, Bostons, and Rangers with revenue growth that outpaces most of the other markets %age wise by a lot. Which is a topic for another thread....

MNNumbers is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 02:10 PM
  #678
Darlotto99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bolton, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 310
vCash: 500
Seattle and Portland get teams first by expansion or relocation then Quebec and Vegas are next

Darlotto99 is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 03:14 PM
  #679
PCSPounder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland. So there.
Country: United States
Posts: 802
vCash: 500
Vegas is only even given lip service because of the arena that's apparently on the verge of being built. The NHL can use it as leverage without the people building it even trying to campaign for NHL because (1) some leaders of other cities are definitely the lowest common denominator, and (2) the MGM people (or whatever the name) let them. The arena may be a bad idea, though there are ways to fill it. The current Vegas economy and distribution of wealth make it a really bad idea. BTW... the proposal is for too big an arena for what Vegas NHL would need. A team would be better off with 16,500 seats maximum and a lot of suites, not 20,000 (which will probably translate to 19,000 for hockey, and that's still too big).

PCSPounder is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 04:11 PM
  #680
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
36 teams is not too many. The NHL should go to 40 teams frankly. And make the nets bigger. Higher Scoring is what will bring the TV contract. The NHL should move away from the archaic gate model before the MLS does.
This is not the Melrose Munch from the Lockout threads; you're an impersonator. Either that, or this is one hell of a change of opinion and direction. Don't agree with 40 teams, but certainly 36 is feasible if handled correctly. 9 Canadian teams, still means only 27 US-based.

MoreOrr is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 04:34 PM
  #681
HooliganX2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,081
vCash: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
Vegas is only even given lip service because of the arena that's apparently on the verge of being built. The NHL can use it as leverage without the people building it even trying to campaign for NHL because (1) some leaders of other cities are definitely the lowest common denominator, and (2) the MGM people (or whatever the name) let them. The arena may be a bad idea, though there are ways to fill it. The current Vegas economy and distribution of wealth make it a really bad idea. BTW... the proposal is for too big an arena for what Vegas NHL would need. A team would be better off with 16,500 seats maximum and a lot of suites, not 20,000 (which will probably translate to 19,000 for hockey, and that's still too big).
The arena is not being built for a Hockey team so they are not going to make it smaller just for the hockey team that would be a horrible idea.....Why not build it to the size of the Events you expect to have not for a maybe hockey team...

HooliganX2 is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 05:04 PM
  #682
PCSPounder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland. So there.
Country: United States
Posts: 802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
The arena is not being built for a Hockey team so they are not going to make it smaller just for the hockey team that would be a horrible idea.....Why not build it to the size of the Events you expect to have not for a maybe hockey team...
I realize I'm not the easiest read. Read my whole thing. If they were building it for hockey, they would be smart to build it smaller. They're not. So don't let your City X go head over heels competing against a non-entity.

Also, don't let this thread go to 30 pages. Um, oops...

PCSPounder is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 05:08 PM
  #683
HooliganX2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,081
vCash: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
This is a bit of a stretch. No matter what measure you want to use, Las Vegas is small by NHL standards. Phoenix has 2X the population. Miami has almost 3X the population. So I think it's crazy to assume Vegas would have a local attendance base on par with Phoenix or Florida, which are by the way the two worst markets for attendance in the league.

The other factors are prevalent in Las Vegas - a much higher percentage of the population works at night when the games would be on, the strip is not an ideal location for locals, and there is a disgustingly high level of competition for the entertainment dollar. You can argue the extent that each of these factors would have on attendance, but those are all things that places like Miami and Phoenix don't have to deal with, or at least not to the same extent as Vegas.

Vegas is also much less rich (for the average person) than most NHL places. They have a lower median income than most. Tampa and Miami are actually lower, likely driven down by the large number of retirees living there on small incomes. Buffalo and Pittsburgh are the only other markets lower than Vegas. Pittsburgh almost died twice, rescued only by generational talent. Buffalo has a gigantic population to draw from in Ontario and other municipalities in upstate New York, while Vegas has literally nothing around it for 100 miles in any direction.

I get that dudes like hockey more than Celine, but the average trip to Vegas is about 3 nights, and it would be difficult for the average person to swing a trip to Vegas on a night when they could see their favorite team playing the local Vegas team. I like hockey as much as the next person, but unless Vegas is playing the Habs, I have absolutely no interest in going to see a hockey game in Vegas, and chances are I'm busy on whatever night the schedule maker would have the Habs playing in Vegas.

Being dependent on tourists to survive is an absolutely dreadful idea for an NHL team.
You honestly seem to be very uneducated on Las Vegas. To say the average pay is lower in Vegas than most other cities is not true at all. I've known dealers, Bartenders, Valet's and cocktail waitress's that make 50-80k a year.

My scale as an Electrician is $39.89 an hour with most other trades being within $8 of that. In PHX I would make $26.60. Hollywood scale is $36 range. San Francisco is $56 with a much much higher cost of living. As someone who has worked in different cities Las Vegas is one of the better paying cities to cost of living I have been in.

Did you know Las Vegas has year round Ice hockey leagues for kids as well?

HooliganX2 is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 05:26 PM
  #684
BigZ65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,738
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I was absolutely shocked to see video this morning of 40 people going nuts over the USA-Russia game at a bar... in New Orleans. I'm not saying they should get an NHL team, but amongst every city with a major pro sports franchise already, I'd have New Orleans DMFL on the list of hockey interest. I felt like four people in the entire city cared about hockey. I was off by at least 10x.
People were going nuts for women's soccer all over North America during the 2012 Olympics too. How's their pro league going?

BigZ65 is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 07:59 PM
  #685
Shawa666
Registered User
 
Shawa666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Québec, Qc, Ca
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,297
vCash: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
Vegas is only even given lip service because of the arena that's apparently on the verge of being built. The NHL can use it as leverage without the people building it even trying to campaign for NHL because (1) some leaders of other cities are definitely the lowest common denominator, and (2) the MGM people (or whatever the name) let them. The arena may be a bad idea, though there are ways to fill it. The current Vegas economy and distribution of wealth make it a really bad idea. BTW... the proposal is for too big an arena for what Vegas NHL would need. A team would be better off with 16,500 seats maximum and a lot of suites, not 20,000 (which will probably translate to 19,000 for hockey, and that's still too big).
Like it was said for Quebec, We'll see when shovels hits the ground.

Shawa666 is offline  
Old
02-15-2014, 09:36 PM
  #686
UtherGardener
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mystic Mountain Or.
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 27
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigZ65 View Post
People were going nuts for women's soccer all over North America during the 2012 Olympics too. How's their pro league going?
Going pretty good have added one team owned by the Houston Dynamo called the Dash. The NWSL has two MLS owners in the league and they (we) have signed the best player in the world.

You know that with the populations of CAN/US growing like they are how long can 28-30 teams serve?

UtherGardener is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 12:54 AM
  #687
PCSPounder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland. So there.
Country: United States
Posts: 802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawa666 View Post
Like it was said for Quebec, We'll see when shovels hits the ground.
Probably also for Kansas City.

PCSPounder is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 01:54 AM
  #688
DyerMaker66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
This is not the Melrose Munch from the Lockout threads; you're an impersonator. Either that, or this is one hell of a change of opinion and direction. Don't agree with 40 teams, but certainly 36 is feasible if handled correctly. 9 Canadian teams, still means only 27 US-based.
I was thinking the same thing; when did he become so progressive?

Who are the teams: QC, Hamilton, Houston, Seattle, LV and Portland?

DyerMaker66 is online now  
Old
02-16-2014, 02:46 AM
  #689
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
I was thinking the same thing; when did he become so progressive?

Who are the teams: QC, Hamilton, Houston, Seattle, LV and Portland?
I assumed his post was a mix of sarcasm and denial that the league already at 30 teams now. Like, if the internet existed in 1978 and to a suggestion the league expanded from 16 to 24, he replied "Why not 40? Put a team on the moon by 1995."


KevFu is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 11:19 AM
  #690
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I assumed his post was a mix of sarcasm and denial that the league already at 30 teams now. Like, if the internet existed in 1978 and to a suggestion the league expanded from 16 to 24, he replied "Why not 40? Put a team on the moon by 1995."

In fact though it's not the first time in the past several months I've seen him post something similar. At first I thought exactly what you thought, but now it's becoming a consistent trend; unless it's consistent sarcasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
I was thinking the same thing; when did he become so progressive?

Who are the teams: QC, Hamilton, Houston, Seattle, LV and Portland?
I'd still be very hesitant to put a team in Vegas.
1. Seattle
2. Quebec City
3. Portland
4. somewhere in southern Ontario
5/6. Houston, Tulsa, Las Vegas, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Birmingham, Omaha,... really, the last 2 would all be risky locations.
However, if Vegas is one of the first 4, then...

MoreOrr is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 01:41 PM
  #691
beepeearr
Registered User
 
beepeearr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 563
vCash: 500
I could see the League announcing its expanding by two teams, one is Seattle who they've already negotiated a franchise fee with, another team to be determined to create a bidding war of sorts to drive up the franchise fee. There's no way the league wants Seattle to pay the kind of fee the would hope to get from a Quebec City or GTA 2.

beepeearr is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 01:58 PM
  #692
gstommylee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,201
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
In fact though it's not the first time in the past several months I've seen him post something similar. At first I thought exactly what you thought, but now it's becoming a consistent trend; unless it's consistent sarcasm.



I'd still be very hesitant to put a team in Vegas.
1. Seattle
2. Quebec City
3. Portland
4. somewhere in southern Ontario
5/6. Houston, Tulsa, Las Vegas, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Birmingham, Omaha,... really, the last 2 would all be risky locations.
However, if Vegas is one of the first 4, then...
Atlanta i doubt a team is ever going back there.

gstommylee is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 02:02 PM
  #693
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
Atlanta i doubt a team is ever going back there.
I wouldn't say never. 10, maybe 20 years down the road I could see it happening. Even with losing 2 teams it's just too tempting a media market for the NHL not to try to beat their collective heads against a brick wall to try to get into.....whether it makes logical sense to or not.

SaintPatrick33 is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 02:06 PM
  #694
gstommylee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,201
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I wouldn't say never. 10, maybe 20 years down the road I could see it happening. Even with losing 2 teams it's just too tempting a media market for the NHL not to try to beat their collective heads against a brick wall to try to get into.....whether it makes logical sense to or not.
I think QC and GTA2 would happen before Atlanta 3.0

gstommylee is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 02:34 PM
  #695
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
I think QC and GTA2 would happen before Atlanta 3.0
Well, I expect Quebec to get an expansion franchise when Seattle gets one. I expect the Leafs to let another team into the GTA when Hell freezes over.

SaintPatrick33 is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 03:38 PM
  #696
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
I think QC and GTA2 would happen before Atlanta 3.0
Well of course!
As for GTA2, that's anyone's guess; so Yes, Atlanta is almost certainly a long-shot at least for the next 10 years, but GTA2 could be 3 to 30 years, who knows.

MoreOrr is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 06:15 PM
  #697
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,266
vCash: 500
Guys I am facing reality. The NHL has put two feet in this plan so let's work with it then around it right?

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 07:01 PM
  #698
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Guys I am facing reality. The NHL has put two feet in this plan so let's work with it then around it right?


That's basically my philosophy. It's funny: on this site, I can't help myself from arguing that non-traditional markets are fine; that teams shouldn't move; that expansion to 36 would work; etc.

In real life, I do wish the league had 28 teams, with 2-4 current ones disappearing.

KevFu is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 07:09 PM
  #699
gstommylee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,201
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
In real life, I do wish the league had 28 teams, with 2-4 current ones disappearing.
The league isn't in that bad of a shape to the point where contraction is necessary. The fact i they wouldn't be even considering expansion if there were serious issues. Nevermind they'll relocate before contracting.

gstommylee is offline  
Old
02-16-2014, 08:29 PM
  #700
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,266
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
I think QC and GTA2 would happen before Atlanta 3.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post


That's basically my philosophy. It's funny: on this site, I can't help myself from arguing that non-traditional markets are fine; that teams shouldn't move; that expansion to 36 would work; etc.

In real life, I do wish the league had 28 teams, with 2-4 current ones disappearing.
Thank You. I can't decide sometimes, but I think 40 teams would bring a bigger TV contract and more scoring. They should make the puck bigger.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:06 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.