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Does anyone ever beat Phil Esposito's 550 shots on goal in 1970-'71?

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12-23-2013, 03:54 PM
  #26
Hawksfan2828
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ovechkin is definitely way in front of Mario and Bossy in terms of getting shots on goal.

Ovechkin = 3227 shots in 635 games (5.08 per game)
Lemieux = 3633 shots in 915 games (3.97 per game)
Bossy = 2705 shots in 752 games (3.60 per game)
This is why I find Ovechkin way overrated, Esposito as well...

If you shoot the puck 5-7 times a game you will score lots of goals...

Lemieux and Bossy have more average shots per game, which makes their feats even more astounding - especially Bossy considering hes not Lemieux-esque (or one of the top 5 to ever play).

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12-23-2013, 04:13 PM
  #27
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
This is why I find Ovechkin way overrated, Esposito as well...

If you shoot the puck 5-7 times a game you will score lots of goals...

Lemieux and Bossy have more average shots per game, which makes their feats even more astounding - especially Bossy considering hes not Lemieux-esque (or one of the top 5 to ever play).
By that premise, everyone could just shoot the puck and get those goals. One of the most underrated abilities today is being able to shoot the puck towards goal.

If that would be easy, everyone would do it.

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12-23-2013, 04:17 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
By that premise, everyone could just shoot the puck and get those goals. One of the most underrated abilities today is being able to shoot the puck towards goal.

If that would be easy, everyone would do it.
I don't know why they don't to be honest.

It's probability - throw the puck at the net, hope for it to go in, get a rebound or get a whistle then repeat...

The thing is a guy like Lemieux or Bossy knew the appropriate time to pass and when to shoot - Ovechkin knows nothing of the sort - he just waits to shoot the puck and then does it again and again...

That's the type of stuff that separates the Crosby's, Toews and Ovechkins...



You cant score a goal if you don't shoot the puck (don't claim deflections I'm making a point)...

The only reason to pass is if you cannot get a shot off... More than not players can take a shot but choose not to - then you have the one guy on the team who always shoots the puck and guess what? he leads the team in goals.


Last edited by Hawksfan2828: 12-23-2013 at 04:24 PM.
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12-23-2013, 04:21 PM
  #29
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Logically he should have one of the highest SOG peaks, though we can only speculate of course.

I figured that goal scoring finishes was the best proxy for SOG counts. Once Howe took over the crown as the leagues best goal scorer it's reasonable (still just speculating of course) that he also would have taken a lot of shots. Considering that Richard also missed some games I think it is unlikely that he lead the league in SOGs more than 5-6 times.
From what I've gathered from reading and the few video clips I've seen, Howe was more of a puck possession and well-rounded offensive player. More of a Gretzky/Lemieux than a Hull/Esposito/Ovechkin in terms of offensive skill set.

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12-23-2013, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
This is why I find Ovechkin way overrated, Esposito as well...

If you shoot the puck 5-7 times a game you will score lots of goals...

Lemieux and Bossy have more average shots per game, which makes their feats even more astounding - especially Bossy considering hes not Lemieux-esque (or one of the top 5 to ever play).
You're applying basketball logic to the game of hockey, where it does not apply.

In basketball, the large majority of possessions end with a shot, so shooting percentage matters.

In hockey, generating shots on goal is a large part of the battle.

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12-23-2013, 04:26 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
It's probably going to take a long time before it is broken. I will go out on a limb and say that Ovechkin is the most prolific shooter in hockey history. Noone else, with the possible exception of Bobby Hull, has led the league in shots as many times as Ovechkin. If his career has a normal trajectory he will have led the league in shots over ten times. Leading the league in any category ten times is extremely unusal.

If Ovechkin at his peak couldn't do it, I doubt that anyone else will do it without some big changes to the game.
I'll go out on a limb and say Gretzky could have averaged 600 shots on goal between 1981 and 1986. However, because he was a superior play maker he did not always shoot when he could have. He played the percentages much better than Ovechkin. That's not taking anything away from Ovi. He is a very talented player and does what he's paid to do. But he doesn't have the all around game Gretzky did.

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12-23-2013, 04:27 PM
  #32
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
I'll go out on a limb and say Gretzky could have averaged 600 shots on goal between 1981 and 1986. However, because he was a superior play maker he did not always shoot when he could have. He played the percentages much better than Ovechkin. That's not taking anything away from Ovi. He is a very talented player and does what he's paid to do. But he doesn't have the all around game Gretzky did.
And who said he did?

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12-23-2013, 04:29 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're applying basketball logic to the game of hockey, where it does not apply.

In basketball, the large majority of possessions end with a shot, so shooting percentage matters.

In hockey, generating shots on goal is a large part of the battle.
I don't even watch basketball but the exact same logic applies.

The same logic applies to flipping a coin too but there are no "rebounds and reflips there."

If you want to analyze how skilled a player is on paper it's statistics like this that actually matter and not GWG's...

Ovechkin is just a sniper that scores the majority of his goals shooting from the circle while he floats waiting for the puck.

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12-23-2013, 04:37 PM
  #34
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Wayne Gretzky's shooting percentage in his prime was 2x what AO's is... If we use that reference AO would have to score 140 goals in half the shots to even match Gretzky's shooting percentage.

Not to mention, Gretzky took a ton of shots to boot but was shooting at like 25%, AO takes a ton of shots and has a shooting percentage of like 12% which drastically sets him apart from the "leagues top players."

Hell, Patrick Sharp plays a similar role and has the same shooting percentage as AO.


Last edited by Hawksfan2828: 12-23-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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12-23-2013, 04:53 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And who said he did?
My point is that shots on goal is a very subjective stat. Some players take the shot whenever they can, others don't.

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12-23-2013, 04:57 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
This is why I find Ovechkin way overrated, Esposito as well...

If you shoot the puck 5-7 times a game you will score lots of goals...

Lemieux and Bossy have more average shots per game, which makes their feats even more astounding - especially Bossy considering hes not Lemieux-esque (or one of the top 5 to ever play).
Which of the following groups of players is better:

Group AGroup B
Alex Tanguay Alex Ovechkin
Alexander Radulov Brad Richards
Andrew Brunette Brendan Shanahan*
Andrew Shaw Eric Staal
Anson Carter Evander Kane
Brenden Morrow Evgeni Malkin
Curtis Glencross Henrik Zetterberg
Fabian Brunnstrom Ilya Kovalchuk
Gabriel Bourque Jarome Iginla
Mark Parrish Jaromir Jagr
Mathieu Perreault Jason Blake
Matt Calvert Jeff Carter
Mike Sillinger Marian Gaborik
Milan Lucic Marian Hossa
Sergei Kostitsyn Mats Sundin*
Steven Stamkos Phil Kessel
Thomas Vanek Rick Nash
Tomas Holmstrom Sidney Crosby
Tyler Bozak Vincent Lecavalier
Yanic Perreault Zach Parise

Group A is the top 20 players with the highest shooting percentage since the lockout (min 100 games played).

Group B is the top 20 players with the highest number of shots on goal per game since the lockout (min 100 games played).

It's pretty clear to me which list is more impressive. I am not saying that shot selection is not an important part of the game, but being able to fire a lot of pucks at the goal seem to correllate very well with being a strong offensive player.


Last edited by steve141: 12-23-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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12-23-2013, 08:38 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Which of the following groups of players is better:

Group AGroup B
Alex Tanguay Alex Ovechkin
Alexander Radulov Brad Richards
Andrew Brunette Brendan Shanahan*
Andrew Shaw Eric Staal
Anson Carter Evander Kane
Brenden Morrow Evgeni Malkin
Curtis Glencross Henrik Zetterberg
Fabian Brunnstrom Ilya Kovalchuk
Gabriel Bourque Jarome Iginla
Mark Parrish Jaromir Jagr
Mathieu Perreault Jason Blake
Matt Calvert Jeff Carter
Mike Sillinger Marian Gaborik
Milan Lucic Marian Hossa
Sergei Kostitsyn Mats Sundin*
Steven Stamkos Phil Kessel
Thomas Vanek Rick Nash
Tomas Holmstrom Sidney Crosby
Tyler Bozak Vincent Lecavalier
Yanic Perreault Zach Parise

Group A is the top 20 players with the highest shooting percentage since the lockout (min 100 games played).

Group B is the top 20 players with the highest number of shots on goal per game since the lockout (min 100 games played).

It's pretty clear to me which list is more impressive. I am not saying that shot selection is not an important part of the game, but being able to fire a lot of pucks at the goal seem to correllate very well with being a strong offensive player.
It doesn't matter because Ovechkin has NEVER been known to be a 2-way player or anything but an offensive dynamo..

You're also not comparing allegedly "top 3" players to anyone else.

Lets see you compare Ovechkin to Crosby or Toews, or Kane or (pick one there are numerous)..

Adjust any of their shots per game to Ovechkins and what happens? they're all (probably) scoring more goals than Ovechkin...

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12-23-2013, 09:27 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
It doesn't matter because Ovechkin has NEVER been known to be a 2-way player or anything but an offensive dynamo..

You're also not comparing allegedly "top 3" players to anyone else.

Lets see you compare Ovechkin to Crosby or Toews, or Kane or (pick one there are numerous)..

Adjust any of their shots per game to Ovechkins and what happens? they're all (probably) scoring more goals than Ovechkin...
Why would we adjust their shots per game?

Shot generation is an ability in and of itself.

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12-23-2013, 10:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Maurice Richard, maybe? We have no numbers to back it up, but he was a prolific goal scorer who had a very long prime and was known to shoot from any angle.
I meant more in the way they play the game. Speed and straight lines to the net.
Neither player was much for going wide, taking it to the corner or trying something overly fancy. They said I'm taking this puck to the net, try and stop me.

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12-23-2013, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
I don't know why they don't to be honest.

It's probability - throw the puck at the net, hope for it to go in, get a rebound or get a whistle then repeat...

The thing is a guy like Lemieux or Bossy knew the appropriate time to pass and when to shoot - Ovechkin knows nothing of the sort - he just waits to shoot the puck and then does it again and again...

That's the type of stuff that separates the Crosby's, Toews and Ovechkins...



You cant score a goal if you don't shoot the puck (don't claim deflections I'm making a point)...

The only reason to pass is if you cannot get a shot off... More than not players can take a shot but choose not to - then you have the one guy on the team who always shoots the puck and guess what? he leads the team in goals.
No, one of the biggest reasons why most players shoot less than Ovechkin, is simply cause they can't shoot the puck as often. It is hard to do. Obviously Ovechkin chooses to shoot the puck more than others. But he also shoots dangerously from places other players can't. You seem to be of the opinion that Ovechkin can't pass the puck and compare him to Toews in that regard. Overall their careers, Ovechkin has shown to be a lot better playmaker than Toews. Actually, it is by a mile.

Ovechkin at his best was overall offensive dynamo. Not one dimensional sniper.

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12-25-2013, 01:36 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
You are missing my point. Of course it could happen. My point is that Ovechkin is probably the most prolific shooter ever, way in front of greats like Brett Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux, Dionne and Bure. Ovechkin is on his way to lead the league in shots for the 8th time in nine seasons. Nobody else has done it more than four times.

If Ovechkin couldn't break the record, it's going to take some very special circumstances for somebody else to do it. A generic sniper in a good year is not enough.
Oh, special no doubt. There have been a ton of elite snipers since 1971 and a ton of guys who shoot the puck like the tazmanian devil. Shots on goal have been tracked since the 1967-'68 season. None have surpassed Esposito. So it won't be someone generic by any means. Shooting that many pucks on net tells me that a player has to have his pulse on the game and can control the game. I'd like to think this will show the critics of Esposito that he wasn't just gobbling up 550 rebounds in 1971 but that he too could control the pace of a game rather well.

Ovechkin is the same way. He shoots from anywhere but his shots are dangerous from almost anywhere. We all have the luxury of seeing him play. We know his shots are lethal. We know he can shoot a bullet from the blue line that can go top corner. So he's a guy who shoots a lot but also has his shots create havoc as well. That's important and that matters a lot more.

Mario and Bossy didn't shoot as much as Ovechkin, but they also seemed to play the percentages better too. Mario of course was just as good of a playmaker so that'll take some shot opportunities away. I think both are valuable. A player that picks his spots is important but a guy so hell bent on getting the rubber on the net is frightening and disruptive as well. In all honesty, I wouldn't say Esposito's record is out of the woods quite yet until Ovechkin is a battered veteran in his mid 30s. He's on pace for over 400 shots again this year. Who knows if he cranks it up a notch in the second half, it could be closer to 500. I wouldn't put it past him. I'll just wait.

But I will agree with you that there are few - if any - players that I have ever seen that determined to put the puck on net as Ovechkin.

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