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Old
12-23-2013, 05:51 PM
  #26
Ace36758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
In Steve Simmons column this morning, he writes that there is always some degree of debate over every suspendable hit in the NHL. He says that someone always brings up 'the good old days' when there was "respect" in hockey. He then goes on to ask when that was: In the 50's and 60's when Howe was elbowing and spearing guys in the corner, in the 70's when the Flyers were brawling everyone, in the 80's (and 90's) when Messier was steamrolling players from behind into the boards (I added the 90's because the only incident I can remember of Messier doing this was against Hough when #11 was a Ranger)? Nonetheless, hits from behind did increase in the 80's and have continued to the present.

I'll also add in the 2000's when a player could bend the rules and charge a vulnerable player, knock him senseless and it was viewed as a good hit. And in the early days of hockey when stick swinging, assaults like Shore on Bailey and even death occurred more frequently.

Also, Gary Roberts chimed in on HNIC last night stating that players need to start recognizing that they should let up when they see the numbers on the back of player's jersey when going into the corners. Nothing new, really. Don Cherry has spoken out against this since the mid 80's.

I think Simmons brings up a very good point. When were those 'good ole days?' Is it a myth?
Gary Roberts was talking about hitting players from behind and how dangerous it is? Really?

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12-24-2013, 12:44 PM
  #27
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In 1985, the CAHA officially "banned" checking/pushing from behind in Canadian amateur hockey at all levels. Essentially, they simply re-introduced a rule that, for reasons long forgotten, had been dropped in 1916.

I bring this up for several reasons, but the first is this: for nearly 70 years, amateur hockey in Canada existed without any prohibition on checking/pushing from behind.

One might reasonably be tempted to think that those 70 years of Canadian amateur hockey, where checking from behind was permitted by the rules, produced lengthy lineups at hospitals across the country.

Well, perhaps not.

In the 3 decades leading up to 1975, there is no record of a single hockey-related spinal injury at any metropolitan Toronto hospital. Not one. National figures are not available, but if not one record exists in metropolitan Toronto . . . clearly, such injuries were exceedingly rare.

So, what happened? 1975 happened, the year the CAHA introduced the mandatory helmet rule for all levels of amateur hockey in Canada. In 1975, the first year of the mandatory helmet rule, one spinal injury was hospital-reported. In 1976, 2. But by 1980, the average was 15 per year, and by the mid-80s the number grew to over 20. I do not know the number today, in 2013, but it certainly has not declined.

We're left with this: prior to 1975, three decades passed without one hospital-reported spinal injury. In the 3 decades following 1975, over 600 spinal cord injuries were reported and over 200 individuals ended up wheelchair bound.

The unintended but undeniable result of the mandatory helmet regulation was a steep decline in "respect," the topic of this thread.

And the CAHA responded. In 1985, the old pre-1916 rule on checking/pushing from behind was re-introduced. A 2 minute minor. Spinal injuries continued to increase. By 1989, the CAHA toughened the penalty to a 5 minute major and a game misconduct. No impact.

In the early 1990s, several researchers determined that the force needed to break a human neck is 150 foot pounds. A 5'10", 180 lb. player skating at 10 mph generates approximately 640 foot pounds of force if he impacts with a stationary object (the boards or another player). At the time (1990s), state of the art hockey helmets were able to absorb 12% the force of a collision. I was never overly strong at math, but I can sure see what these numbers will add up to, and it is not pretty.

BTW: it was not until the 1991-92 season that the NHL introduced a checking from behind penalty similar to the CAHA standard (5 minutes and a game).

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12-24-2013, 01:52 PM
  #28
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PCHA 1914-15 Checking Rule

^^^Further to the above the PCHA, prior to the 1914-15 season, introduced a no body checking rule within 10 feet of the boards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914%E2...15_PCHA_season

Interesting that no distinction was made about the direction that the check came from - front, back, side. Nor was a distinction made about the nature of the contact(body check) - push or check.

Key was the risk or danger of contact within proximity of the boards.

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12-24-2013, 06:46 PM
  #29
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Good post Badger. Some very interesting information. I can see helmets being a significant factor in checks from behind, but me thinks this issue goes much deeper. I won't speculate on it now. I'll sleep on it and see what Santa brings me in the morning.

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12-24-2013, 08:25 PM
  #30
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Helmets and Head Gear

^^^ Further to recent posts, the introduction of helmets or head gear with cages, visors or face masks as applicable in hockey, football and boxing should provide interesting results especially if the changes in coaching, playing and refereeing each sport are considered.

Recently Olympic boxing did away with head gear:

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/...scoring-system

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12-24-2013, 09:27 PM
  #31
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^^^ I certainly believe the introduction & mandatory use of helmets did indeed precipitate the breakdown or lessening of respect amongst players C58. Not so much at first, early 60's when most were using the old Cooper-Weekes 3 piece plastic shell model that was covered in leather, but shortly thereafter when the full plastic beefed up models became mass produced & readily available, the CCM model amongst the more popular. Guys wouldnt think twice about getting their sticks & elbows up whereas just a year, two or three previously nope, it was controlled, not nearly as reckless.

The rise of the slapshot as well, even simple follow through on the shot with so many became like a Danse Macabre. They'd literally corkscrew themselves past the shot and if you were anywhere near them when they finished their rotation, take your eye clean out. Like running the gamut through a driving range ducking the follow throughs of fat boy drivers. Player requires time and space to wind up, the stick rather than speed & skating skill to get open used to create the space the guy needs to wind up. And he'd get that space, because no one would willingly walk into what is essentially a 6' tall 200lb blender whirling a Northlands Banana Blade around his head like a Samurai sword with his wind-up & follow through. Honestly some of these guys you just wanted to deck. All that show, massive windup, attitude of "gimme room gimme room, ah, thats better.... Im ready for my close-up now Mr. De Mille"... & a shot that lands in the balcony. Absolutely absurd. The glamor shot, the slapshot, and sticks right out of control. Too much dangerous wind-up & reckless follow through with the stick.

We talked earlier of "awareness", that you were just far more "aware" & cognizant of things going on around you without the helmet on. This is very true, not just some made up old Wives Tale told by Old Fogeys who think everyone & everything was better back in the day. No helmet on, your senses were in total high alert to potential danger. You played it less recklessly, controlled your actions, fine tuned the brakes & let up on guys who were in vulnerable positions. If you didnt you were usually gone from the game at the elite levels, and could go find employment with the Long Island Ducks with the rest of the creatures in the EHL where people paid $2 for the best seats in the house to watch players bleed.

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12-25-2013, 07:55 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ Im ready for my close-up now Mr. De Mille"
I hope that I'm not the only one who gets that reference.

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ We talked earlier of "awareness", that you were just far more "aware" & cognizant of things going on around you without the helmet on. This is very true, not just some made up old Wives Tale told by Old Fogeys who think everyone & everything was better back in the day. No helmet on, your senses were in total high alert to potential danger. You played it less recklessly, controlled your actions, fine tuned the brakes & let up on guys who were in vulnerable positions. If you didnt you were usually gone from the game at the elite levels, and could go find employment with the Long Island Ducks with the rest of the creatures in the EHL where people paid $2 for the best seats in the house to watch players bleed.
I couldn't agree with you more. I never wore a helmet in all the years that I officiated. I did read at one time that Kerry Fraser put off wearing one for the same reason.

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12-25-2013, 10:48 AM
  #33
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If anything there's more respect now. Players from opposing teams are friends, often texting each other on game day. You would never see the equivalent during the mythical halcyon days. The myth of "respect" in the old days is nothing other than nostalgic fantasy, the same sort of disease you see in some people who idealize the 60s, the 50s or some other era.

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12-25-2013, 10:57 AM
  #34
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Let's steer clear of hanging Simmons or any of his colleagues in effigy. This thread is about respect. Whether you are liberal, conservative or lie somewhere in the middle, I think we all agree that there has been unnecessary violence over the years. As some have pointed out, the perpetrators have mostly been the aggressors. And as BP, pointed out, the victims have to take some responsibility too. That may be because they are not being coached properly throughout the lower levels. I don't walk through the roughest part of town and start shouting,'I just cashed my paycheck.' I believe this is akin to knowing how to protect yourself on the ice.
A hack is a hack. Stan Fischler was a hack. There have been hack hockey writers forever. Simmons is just a total hack writer. He sucks. He should be "hung" (not literally) by all hockey fans.

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12-25-2013, 10:58 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
I hope that I'm not the only one who gets that reference.

I couldn't agree with you more. I never wore a helmet in all the years that I officiated. I did read at one time that Kerry Fraser put off wearing one for the same reason.
Sunset Boulevard? Thought never crossed my mind, surely not? Classic line, like this one....
And his hair was perfect.... Warren Zevon, Werewolves of London.... Kerry Fraser.

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12-25-2013, 11:01 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
^^^Further to the above the PCHA, prior to the 1914-15 season, introduced a no body checking rule within 10 feet of the boards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914%E2...15_PCHA_season

Interesting that no distinction was made about the direction that the check came from - front, back, side. Nor was a distinction made about the nature of the contact(body check) - push or check.

Key was the risk or danger of contact within proximity of the boards.
What were the "boards" made of then? Could have been a far less forgiving object. Anyone know? Seriously? Could a really hard hit move the boards themselves and cause a delay in fixing them? Was that a player safety rule? Or a protect the rink from damage rule?

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12-25-2013, 11:07 AM
  #37
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The myth of "respect" in the old days is nothing other than nostalgic fantasy...
Youve absolutely got the wrong end of the stick on that one cynicism. Couldnt be more wrong. Completely disregarding the evolution & development of the game along with socio-societal changes of the past 70 years. Off the ice, absolutely, most assuredly the players of the last 40 odd years more of a Brotherhood. Were not talking about that. Its whats goin on on the ice thats the problem.

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12-25-2013, 11:16 AM
  #38
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Youve absolutely got the wrong end of the stick on that one cynicism. Couldnt be more wrong. Completely disregarding the evolution & development of the game along with socio-societal changes of the past 70 years.
I really think the old respect was based on... "You could really hurt me badly if you wished to do it.." I could hurt you badly too. Let's neither of us take advantage of this so we don't nearly kill each other.

Now with uber equipment it is.... I am invincible, you are invincible, we are both in body armor. I can do almost anything and I want get hurt and neither will you. Sure sometimes there are accidents and a player is hurt, but it probably won't happen to me.

The difference is not based in societal factors, or players being better morally back in the day. It is equipment. From playing a high speed game with a zillion dangers, to a high speed game where you are almost entirely protected from pucks and sticks and the ice and hits.

It is actually entirely rational. The change in so called "respect".

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12-25-2013, 11:21 AM
  #39
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Sunset Boulevard? Thought never crossed my mind, surely not? Classic line, like this one....
And his hair was perfect.... Warren Zevon, Werewolves of London.... Kerry Fraser.
I'd like to meet His tailor.....

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12-25-2013, 11:27 AM
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Respect

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynicism View Post
If anything there's more respect now. Players from opposing teams are friends, often texting each other on game day. You would never see the equivalent during the mythical halcyon days. The myth of "respect" in the old days is nothing other than nostalgic fantasy, the same sort of disease you see in some people who idealize the 60s, the 50s or some other era.
Describing sociable or friendly, not playing with respect.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 12-25-2013 at 09:03 PM.
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12-25-2013, 11:30 AM
  #41
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Wood

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What were the "boards" made of then? Could have been a far less forgiving object. Anyone know? Seriously? Could a really hard hit move the boards themselves and cause a delay in fixing them? Was that a player safety rule? Or a protect the rink from damage rule?
Wood,did not change much until board advertising became an issue. pre plexiglass. Various types of wire mesh.

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12-25-2013, 11:38 AM
  #42
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It is actually entirely rational. The change in so called "respect".
Yes of course, equipment innovations, the way the game is played all contributing factors as to are socio-societal changes. Fact of the matter is people were just generally a lot more respectful & polite to one another in the past. This isnt some "theory" Ive just cooked up on my own to bolster my argument, its a fact. Life simply wasnt lead or lived at the same break neck speeds back in the day as it is today. Countless thousands of articles & thesis, books have been written on this very subject. On the breaking down of moral values & truisms once held steadfast by earlier generations. The generations that came of age during the Great Depression and into the early 50's. Of Gentlemanly conduct on the ice, diamond & field. Complex subject and quite fascinating really.

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12-25-2013, 12:12 PM
  #43
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A hack is a hack. Stan Fischler was a hack. There have been hack hockey writers forever. Simmons is just a total hack writer. He sucks. He should be "hung" (not literally) by all hockey fans.
He has his opinions just like everyone else. He just happens to get paid for them. I don't agree with everything he says, but I thought his question regarding respect was worthy of discussion on this board. Again, this thread is not about Simmons, Steve or Richard, but about respect in hockey. Merry Christmas.

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12-25-2013, 02:34 PM
  #44
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Yes of course, equipment innovations, the way the game is played all contributing factors as to are socio-societal changes. Fact of the matter is people were just generally a lot more respectful & polite to one another in the past. This isnt some "theory" Ive just cooked up on my own to bolster my argument, its a fact. Life simply wasnt lead or lived at the same break neck speeds back in the day as it is today. Countless thousands of articles & thesis, books have been written on this very subject. On the breaking down of moral values & truisms once held steadfast by earlier generations. The generations that came of age during the Great Depression and into the early 50's. Of Gentlemanly conduct on the ice, diamond & field. Complex subject and quite fascinating really.
I call crap on that. You are mistaking appearances for reality. There were always Ty Cobb's and Eddie Shore's. Dale Hunter's and Barry Bonds. Mark Messier's and Bobby Clarke's.

Ball players took uppers in the 50's and 60's, Coke in the 70's and 80's and roids in the 90's and beyond. All to increase there performance, not recreationally.

There is no mythical past. Reporters didn't destroy the character of Ruth or Mantle for their drinking and womanizing... Or JFK.

This mythical respect of the past is nostagia for the past when we "pretended" that there were not social problems. When men beat their wives and abused their children more, bullying was far more prevalent, when fighting among children and teens was acceptable behaviour. When racism, sexism, classism was ok. When arenas put up chicken wire to keep people in cheap seats caged off. When Richard was correct in the bias against French Canadians. When myths of Europeans being soft in the 70's to 90's persisted for far too long.

Fact is players in the original 6 hated each other for the most part. Wouldn't talk to each other. Rode on separate train cars. Clearly playing each other 14 times a year, every year, plus playoffs helped that.... But how is that respect?

Players were more aware on the ice, because they had a better chance of getting hurt. They didn't get hurt too much... Because they spent their entire life in hockey being aware of how not to get hurt. Now equipment changes all that. And players spend all their lives in hockey... Not worrying too much about getting hurt.

Players routinely attempt to draw boarding penalties by turning their back to a checker. They are not afraid and want to draw a power play. That isn't a lack of respect... It is thinking you are invincible.

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12-25-2013, 02:45 PM
  #45
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Let's steer clear of hanging Simmons or any of his colleagues in effigy. This thread is about respect. Whether you are liberal, conservative or lie somewhere in the middle, I think we all agree that there has been unnecessary violence over the years. As some have pointed out, the perpetrators have mostly been the aggressors. And as BP, pointed out, the victims have to take some responsibility too. That may be because they are not being coached properly throughout the lower levels. I don't walk through the roughest part of town and start shouting,'I just cashed my paycheck.' I believe this is akin to knowing how to protect yourself on the ice.
Right.

And that's the problem here. 15-20 years ago it was almost a universal thought that Lindros was going to "get it". Why? Because he had a terrible habit of skating with his head down. It was an atrocious habit. We all knew he was going to get cranked regardless of how big he was. And who wouldn't with those kinds of habits? It doesn't matter how big you are, if you aren't looking it is going to hit you like a truck. Everyone agreed that he was at fault for this. Watch Jagr from that time frame. Or Sakic. Or Yzerman. All of the best players skated with their heads up and you rarely saw them get cranked. They carried the puck at least as much as Lindros as well. They were just smarter.

Why have we gotten away from that and then in the same breath blame everything else on the reason for concussions despite the most obvious one being keeping your head down.

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12-25-2013, 02:53 PM
  #46
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Technology

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I really think the old respect was based on... "You could really hurt me badly if you wished to do it.." I could hurt you badly too. Let's neither of us take advantage of this so we don't nearly kill each other.

Now with uber equipment it is.... I am invincible, you are invincible, we are both in body armor. I can do almost anything and I want get hurt and neither will you. Sure sometimes there are accidents and a player is hurt, but it probably won't happen to me.

The difference is not based in societal factors, or players being better morally back in the day. It is equipment. From playing a high speed game with a zillion dangers, to a high speed game where you are almost entirely protected from pucks and sticks and the ice and hits.

It is actually entirely rational. The change in so called "respect".
You are trying to build a "technology" argument, introducing "respect" as a by-product.

Cars today are much safer today in collisions - airbags, seat belts, fall away metal technology, etc. Plus road construction, markings and other factors contribute to a safer driving environment so people driving in a dangerous fashion - drunk, fast, recklessly are more likely to walkaway from a collision.

Does not mean they are respectful of others they share the road with.

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12-25-2013, 03:04 PM
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1975-1985

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Right.

And that's the problem here. 15-20 years ago it was almost a universal thought that Lindros was going to "get it". Why? Because he had a terrible habit of skating with his head down. It was an atrocious habit. We all knew he was going to get cranked regardless of how big he was. And who wouldn't with those kinds of habits? It doesn't matter how big you are, if you aren't looking it is going to hit you like a truck. Everyone agreed that he was at fault for this. Watch Jagr from that time frame. Or Sakic. Or Yzerman. All of the best players skated with their heads up and you rarely saw them get cranked. They carried the puck at least as much as Lindros as well. They were just smarter.

Why have we gotten away from that and then in the same breath blame everything else on the reason for concussions despite the most obvious one being keeping your head down.
Interestingly you bring us back to the point made upthread by BadgerBruce about the 1975-1985 era which produced Eric Lindros and the players more than willing to crank him. Still see the residue today.

This will change over time as the "Head Contact" rules in minor hockey change the way the game is played.

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12-25-2013, 04:00 PM
  #48
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You are trying to build a "technology" argument, introducing "respect" as a by-product.

Cars today are much safer today in collisions - airbags, seat belts, fall away metal technology, etc. Plus road construction, markings and other factors contribute to a safer driving environment so people driving in a dangerous fashion - drunk, fast, recklessly are more likely to walkaway from a collision.

Does not mean they are respectful of others they share the road with.
And fatality rates are dramatically lower then they were in the 1950's and 60's.

Hockey is different then driving. But the analogy is useful. Players used to play like they were on bicycles in traffic. Now they play like they are in cars in traffic.

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12-25-2013, 04:28 PM
  #49
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And fatality rates are dramatically lower then they were in the 1950's and 60's.

Hockey is different then driving. But the analogy is useful. Players used to play like they were on bicycles in traffic. Now they play like they are in cars in traffic.
Unfortunately down time or man games lost to injury is up significantly compared to the fifties and sixties.

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12-25-2013, 08:51 PM
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Lindros seems to be the poster boy for keeping his head down and making himself vulnerable to big hits. My question is then is it just him or were there other players from that generation that had this habit? Was Lindros tested in the junior ranks, and as a result, formed bad habits? I could see why he might not have been tested because of his size.

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