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What is your metric when evaluating Holmgren as a GM?

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Old
12-30-2013, 09:17 PM
  #1
Ryker
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What is your metric when evaluating Holmgren as a GM?

There have been multiple threads on Holmgren as a GM, but to me it seems it's always playing on uneven or unknown ground, because people don't really state what their metric for evaluation is. So I was just wondering whether people that participate in those threads (or even those that don't, but have an opinion about it) could post what their metric was, so that the next time this thing comes up, we can see where people are coming from and not just shooting arguments all over the place without even defining the rules of the discussion.

In particular, when does that metric tip over to "he's done a bad job and should be replaced" and/or "he's doing a good job and should keep it"?

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Old
12-30-2013, 09:40 PM
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We don't use the metric system in the U.S. ...thread is dead.

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Old
12-30-2013, 09:49 PM
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Ryker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
We don't use the metric system in the U.S. ...thread is dead.
Yeah, I knew a lot of people debated without a metric already

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Old
12-30-2013, 10:05 PM
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Broad Street Elite
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To me, it's about direction and proximity to the goal. In every transaction (trade, UFA signing, UFA/RFA let go, draft pick), is the organization closer to the ultimate prize than it was before that move was made. At the end of the day, this correlates to a mixed bag for EVERY GM with the composition of the trend containing both + and -s. The better the GM, obviously the greater the +s. Obviously, the sizes of the + and - matter considerably.

Now, for Holmgren, it's a mixed bag. Some of the bad has been colossally bad (Bryz). Other of the bad has been self-inflicted, nonsensical damage (selecting fighters inappropriately high in the draft).

At the end of the day, I view Holmgren as a middle of the road GM. There are much, much worse GMs... There are clearly better GMs. If Holmgren were replaced, there's definitely a possibility we end up better off, but there is just as good or better odds that we don't.

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Old
12-31-2013, 12:28 AM
  #5
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Satisfaction with Holmgren = current team performance + 1/2 hope about future of team

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Old
12-31-2013, 12:56 PM
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Raffl House
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I think the transaction idea isn't a bad idea, but I look at organization growth as a whole as well. The GM is responsible for coordinating all staffs, including medical, scouting, player development, coaching, etc. I'm sure in each GM position, some of this blends into other roles or is influenced in whatever way.

Overall, I'm disappointed with the Flyers. I think they have enough money to bring in the right staff in various areas. I am concerned about scouting, drafting, and player development. I think their individual work is not as apparent as it is with other teams. Take player skating and speed, as an example. I just can't understand how it seems every team outskates most of our team. Players like Coots and Schenn would be 10x better if their skating ability was better than average. Luke Schenn would be a much better defender if his skating was better. In fact, I think I read earlier in the year in multiple articles that L. Schenn was constantly doing side work on his skating...and he is slightly improved there.

I think the focus on coaching systems is there and it works, but I'd like to see player improvement on an individual level. You expect progression from players like B. Schenn, Coots, etc. But when you look at the players Flyers have traded away over the past few years...a lot of them were considered middling prospects and all-of-a-sudden with their new teams, they've turned it on. Is that a product of better coaching, better player development, or a change of scenery? Who knows.

Look at Sharp, JVR, who come to mind immediately. Talk about getting robbed in trades. Then again, you see Voracek traded for a nobody defenseman and fifth round draft choice. I think I'm more concerned with the trigger finger of making moves than anything.

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Old
12-31-2013, 03:40 PM
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SgtJoseph
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I made it a point to give Homer till Christmas of the 3rd year of the " rebuild" to be a fair judge of him overall as a GM......................I think he is proving a lot of his critics as nothing more than a bunch of NHL GM wannabees who react with wild knee jerk reactions at every move he or a player he has signed makes......Hell, we have had folks recently wanting Roo sent packing , Coots dealt away, Kimmo sent to a retirement home and Harts executed ...........BLAH, BLAH, BLAH Knee jerk juvenile horse shi%in my view . Overall Homer has been a fine GM and his " 3 year plan " is looking better with each passing day........Homer ain't perfect but he is a fine GM in my view who bleeds Orange and loves the Flyers .

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Old
12-31-2013, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
We don't use the metric system in the U.S. ...thread is dead.
Thank you very much!

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Old
12-31-2013, 05:13 PM
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Young Talent Analyzer= A+
Trading = C-
Free Agents = B-
Player Management = C+


Forwards= A-
Defensemen= C-
Goaltending= C+

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Old
12-31-2013, 06:02 PM
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LegionOfDoom91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raffl House View Post
I think the transaction idea isn't a bad idea, but I look at organization growth as a whole as well. The GM is responsible for coordinating all staffs, including medical, scouting, player development, coaching, etc. I'm sure in each GM position, some of this blends into other roles or is influenced in whatever way.

Overall, I'm disappointed with the Flyers. I think they have enough money to bring in the right staff in various areas. I am concerned about scouting, drafting, and player development. I think their individual work is not as apparent as it is with other teams. Take player skating and speed, as an example. I just can't understand how it seems every team outskates most of our team. Players like Coots and Schenn would be 10x better if their skating ability was better than average. Luke Schenn would be a much better defender if his skating was better. In fact, I think I read earlier in the year in multiple articles that L. Schenn was constantly doing side work on his skating...and he is slightly improved there.

I think the focus on coaching systems is there and it works, but I'd like to see player improvement on an individual level. You expect progression from players like B. Schenn, Coots, etc. But when you look at the players Flyers have traded away over the past few years...a lot of them were considered middling prospects and all-of-a-sudden with their new teams, they've turned it on. Is that a product of better coaching, better player development, or a change of scenery? Who knows.

Look at Sharp, JVR, who come to mind immediately. Talk about getting robbed in trades. Then again, you see Voracek traded for a nobody defenseman and fifth round draft choice. I think I'm more concerned with the trigger finger of making moves than anything.
That was under Clarke's watch not Homer. Hitchcock wasn't a big fan of Sharp back then.

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Old
12-31-2013, 06:23 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raffl House View Post
I think the transaction idea isn't a bad idea, but I look at organization growth as a whole as well. The GM is responsible for coordinating all staffs, including medical, scouting, player development, coaching, etc. I'm sure in each GM position, some of this blends into other roles or is influenced in whatever way.

Overall, I'm disappointed with the Flyers. I think they have enough money to bring in the right staff in various areas. I am concerned about scouting, drafting, and player development. I think their individual work is not as apparent as it is with other teams. Take player skating and speed, as an example. I just can't understand how it seems every team outskates most of our team. Players like Coots and Schenn would be 10x better if their skating ability was better than average. Luke Schenn would be a much better defender if his skating was better. In fact, I think I read earlier in the year in multiple articles that L. Schenn was constantly doing side work on his skating...and he is slightly improved there.

I think the focus on coaching systems is there and it works, but I'd like to see player improvement on an individual level. You expect progression from players like B. Schenn, Coots, etc. But when you look at the players Flyers have traded away over the past few years...a lot of them were considered middling prospects and all-of-a-sudden with their new teams, they've turned it on. Is that a product of better coaching, better player development, or a change of scenery? Who knows.

Look at Sharp, JVR, who come to mind immediately. Talk about getting robbed in trades. Then again, you see Voracek traded for a nobody defenseman and fifth round draft choice. I think I'm more concerned with the trigger finger of making moves than anything.

Wait... What?!?!? what did I miss here?

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Old
12-31-2013, 06:28 PM
  #12
sobrien
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Good moves / bad moves + cushion for turning the worst Flyers team ever into an ECF team in one offseason.


But really that cushion's worn thin for me, as Homer's proceeded to trade most of that team away.

IMO he USUALLY makes good player signings and trades and terrible contractual decisions. The team's drafting appears to be vastly improved, and he acquired a good goaltender for MFL.

All in all, I think the makeup of the team is very good. There's a ton of talent. We just need the players to play better. And it seems so far away, but I'm looking forward to our defense being some conglomeration of:

Gostisbehere - Morin
Hagg - Schenn
Alt - Coburn

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Old
12-31-2013, 06:52 PM
  #13
Sawdalite
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First off... I don't take winning a Cup, or even getting into the SCF on a consistent basis into consideration... One out of 30+ GMs win a Cup per season and only two manage teams into them... All things being equal, a GM from your team should win a Cup once every 30 years.

What I do take into consideration is a GM giving his Organization a chance... getting to the PostSeason on a consistent basis, with only an occasional miss once every so many years. Once in there, things can happen; not there, nothing can happen. Homer is okay there.

Player assessment is key and bringing in potentially good non-drafted FA and being able to lure in and sign top UFAs is crucial... Keying in on good players on other teams and devising ways of getting them or having a shot at them as in Offer Sheets also comes into play. Homer has had little problem there, and has overall done well.

Devising a plan of action and being able to work with it is key... FAs/Trades/Drafts mix vs. working within the System and relying on development and being able to retain them... Time will tell, but I have no strong argument with Homer in his... so far... It is the Flyers way of late and the Organization (Snider) preference.

Being able to work with the Organization upper management and surviving within their demands... I think this actually works against Homer's plan, but he is plodding through as best he can.

Intangibles... Having your key players lost to freak accidents or injuries... Other Organizations matching Offer Sheets... Bad stretches of injuries in one particular area... Cap reductions... Players not meeting the consensus level of their talents... UFAs leaving for the big bucks... Behind the scenes concerns that we may never learn about... Yada, yada, yada... This is almost impossible to really fully take into account, but how a GM deals with them I suppose can be... Homer is dealing with these as they pop up and is handcuffed at times with them.

Balance of Forwards vs. Defensemen vs. Goalies allocation of money and having insurance against injuries... Maybe Homers toughest category.

I agree that knee jerk reaction that we often see serves no good... All in all, I like what Homer has done with the initial retooling and then again with the major shift of what was once their core talent in another retooling. I feel the youth on this team has enough talent to eventually win a Cup... and with good luck and continuing good goaltending I can see it happening... I do see where some improvement is needed though. I'd stick with Homer until either these young players prove to not be the right mix, or he has multiple PO misses and his teams start to spin their wheels.


Last edited by Sawdalite: 12-31-2013 at 09:25 PM.
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